L-Arginine Supplementation - Really That Bad?

griesburner

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Hey,

im reading in this forum for years and the information i got is very impressive so far :)
Now i decided to join and register to help getting thinks clearer.

There are so many questions in my mind, often from reading so conflicting studys, especially when it comes to nitric oxide and arginine for example. I know arginine is not very peat approved thats for sure ;) cause as a precurser to nitric oxide it should have very negative side-effects.

As im new to this forum i think im not allowed to post any links here, so i am not able to post any studies i think :/

I know that there are studies that show some side-effects, but the mayority of studies i found to supplementing with l-arginine especially for heart and endothelial health seem very promising.
The coincidence i dont understand is the following:

- most studies show that arginine increases NO - resulting in better blood flow, lower blood pressure etc.
- L-NAME (N(G)-Nitro-L-arginine methyl ester), the substance used in studies to reduce NO - raises hypertension, causes vasoconstriction etc.

I know CO2 should be the primary vasodilator if NO is low, but in animal research if NO is supressed, there seems to be no compensatory mechanism of CO2 short term. Maybe longterm if NO is supressed that will happen? i dont know and i havent found studies to show this.

Im very curious about this question because i have an inflammatory rheumatoid desease, and to keep my arteries etc healthy i want to do the best i can. In theory the best should be to keep nitric oxide low cause its inflammatory. but i even found intervention studies in patients who have rheumatoid arthritis with l-arginine and they got better and it was approved to be safe. that makes my confusion even greater :D

PS: as a side note. i dont post this to try to convince someone that arginine is good. im just curious why there are so many studies showing the potential benefits

Maybe u guys have a better understanding and can help me :)
 

johnwester130

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Many studies show it has benefits.

but yes, nitric oxide is considered bad for you and associated with aging and decline.

There was a thread on lysine, which lowers nitric oxide. it said the problem was nitric oxide is lowered, but the body does not have enough nutrition to make carbon dioxide, because of poor health/nutrition, so you end up low in both.

peat's work can be divided into substances, foods and chemicals that keep you youthful and healthy,
and substances, chemicals and foods that promote aging
 

Frankdee20

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Yeah, I only take citrulline powder, which converts to Arginine, to boost my NO when I'm about to lay the pipe. Otherwise, I noticed no enhancements other than lowered BP.
 

vulture

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Yeah, I only take citrulline powder, which converts to Arginine, to boost my NO when I'm about to lay the pipe. Otherwise, I noticed no enhancements other than lowered BP.
LOL didn't know that expression
Does it works that way? I have almost a kilogram of that thing hahaha and trying to sell something and I was thinking to leave about 100 g just for that same purpose you said hahaha but I was wondering if it needed some days on to work
 

Frankdee20

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I believe in some studies, citrulline outperformed Arginine for ED. The advantage was also that Arginine had a shorter half life, and required higher dosing, almost 2x as much. Now, some studies did show that citrulline needed to build up to be effective. I don't have ED, but I noticed enhancement downstairs the same day, maybe within an hour or two. I was taking roughly 2 grams in water or juice for those occasions. To me, it's easier than sucking down watermelon rinds, which provide a good amount surprisingly. Lol.
 
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griesburner

griesburner

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yes I heard of the benefits from citrulline in that regard, too. ^^ And about a year ago I ordered some citrulline-malate to experiment with it how it feels like etc. It was a well water-soluble powder and it tasted very nice like apple juice cause of the malate I think :)

but just a few minutes after ingesting (not very much, perhaps half a teaspoon) I got a flush-like reaction. maybe thats how its supossed to be? but it was so overhelming that it scared the ***t out of me and I thought I will die :D I must admit im a bit of a hypochondriac person and I was not prepared for this strong reaction it gave me so the whole day was full of anxiety. Long before this happened I sometimes took l-arginine and never had a reaction like this, so i thought it could be the malate. but I had ingested magnesium-malate and there was no reaction to it. so it had to be the citrulline I guess, or just a random reaction that I overinterpreted myself. but since then I never touched the citrulline again^^

in addition to this I've read some studies who discovered a link between so called "citrullination" as a link to rheumatoid arthritis. but im not so experienced to say this citrullination had something to do with citrulline as a supplmenet.

for example this studies: (hope the link will work)
Is Citrullination the Missing Link between Periodontal Disease and Rheumatoid Arthritis?
Anti-citrullinated protein antibodies cause arthritis by cross-reactivity to joint cartilage. - PubMed - NCBI
 

vulture

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" or just a random reaction that I overinterpreted"
I think we have a winner here haha

I did citrulline for weeks, never felt anything special besides harder erections and maybe bulged veins.
Try eating half a kg of watermelon rind and you will know if it was citrulline.
 
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Acute L-Arginine supplementation does not increase nitric oxide production in healthy subjects
Thiago Silveira Alvares1, 2Email author,
Carlos Adam Conte-Junior1,
Joab Trajano Silva1 and
Vânia Margaret Flosi Paschoalin1
Nutrition & Metabolism20129:54
Acute L-Arginine supplementation does not increase nitric oxide production in healthy subjects
© Alvares et al.; licensee BioMed Central Ltd. 2012
Received: 20 December 2011
Accepted: 16 May 2012
Published: 12 June 2012
Abstract
Dietary supplements containing L-arginine have been marketed with the purpose of increasing vasodilatation, and thus, blood and oxygen supply to the exercising muscle. The present study evaluated the acute effect of L-arginine supplementation on indicators of NO production, nitrite (NO2-) + nitrate (NO3-) (NOx), in healthy subjects. Plasma concentrations of asymmetric dimethylarginine (ADMA) and symmetric dimethylarginine (SDMA) have also been addressed. Seventeen healthy males participated in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Blood samples were drawn from a left antecubital vein at baseline (T0). Afterwards, subjects were randomly submittedto 6 g of oral L-arginine supplementation (as L-arginine hydrochloride) or placebo (as corn starch); afterwards, the subjects remained at rest in supine position and blood samples were drawn again at 30 (T1), 60 (T2), 90 (T3) and 120 minutes (T4) after supplementation. To analyze NO production, NO3- was converted to NO2- by nitrate reductase, followed by the derivatization of NO2- with 2,3-diaminonaphthalene. NOx, ADMA and SDMA were analyzed using a high-performance liquid chromatography system and monitored with a fluorescence detector. Two-way ANOVA with repeated measures showed no significant changes in NOx concentrations on the L-arginine group as compared to placebo group at any of the fivetime points (T0: 17.6 ± 3.9 vs 14.6 ± 2.3 μmol/L; T1: 15.8 ± 2.4 vs 14.3 ± 1.7 μmol/L; T2: 16.8 ± 4.9 vs 13.7 ± 2.7 μmol/L; T3: 16.7 ± 3.9 vs 14.6 ± 2.1 μmol/L; T4: 15.1 ± 2.8 vs 13.5 ± 3.5 μmol/L). Furthermore, plasma levels of ADMA and SDMA were not statistically significant between the L-arginine and placebo groups at T0 (0.43 ± 0.19 vs 0.39 ± 0.15 μmol/L and 1.83 ± 1.13 vs 1.70 ± 0.62 μmol/L), respectively. In conclusion, acute L-arginine supplementation does not increase plasma concentration of NOx in healthy individuals with normal plasma concentrations of ADMA.
 
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Paradoxical effect of l-arginine: Acceleration of endothelial cell senescence
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Abstract
We have recently shown that inhibition of nitric oxide (NO) synthesis by asymmetrical dimethylarginine (ADMA) accelerated endothelial cell (EC) senescence which was prevented by coincubation with l-arginine; however the effect of long-term treatment of l-arginine alone on senescence of ECs have not been investigated. Human ECs were cultured in medium containing different concentrations of l-arginine until senescence. l-Arginine paradoxically accelerated senescence indicated by inhibiting telomerase activity. Moreover, l-arginine decreased NO metabolites, increased peroxynitrite, and 8-iso-prostaglandin F2α formation. In old cells, the mRNA expression of human amino acid transporter (hCAT)2B, the activity and protein expression of arginase II were upregulated indicated by enhanced urea, l-ornithine, and l-arginine consumption. Inhibition of arginase activity, or transfection with arginase II siRNA prevented l-arginine-accelerated senescence. The most possible explanation for the paradoxical acceleration of senescence by l-arginine so far may be the translational and posttranslational activation of arginase II.
 
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griesburner

griesburner

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haha good idea , maybe I will just try it again ;).
but just from a peat-perspective citrulline should be very negative like arginine too, right? maybe even worse? I dont know cause I find the evidence in this regard very conflicting and confusing.

for example in this study on airway inflammation they found that high dose l-arginine enhanced eNOS but decreased iNOS and was anti-inflammatory and reduced nitro-oxidative stress:
Beneficial effects of high dose of L-arginine on airway hyperresponsiveness and airway inflammation in a murine model of asthma - ScienceDirect

or this study in rats who showed that its anti-inflammatory:
Potential ergogenic effects of l-arginine against oxidative and inflammatory stress induced by acute exercise in aging rats - ScienceDirect

the big question to me is: how can something that increases nitric oxide like arginine be anti-inflammatory , if nitric oxide itself is only inflammatory?
 

Frankdee20

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yes I heard of the benefits from citrulline in that regard, too. ^^ And about a year ago I ordered some citrulline-malate to experiment with it how it feels like etc. It was a well water-soluble powder and it tasted very nice like apple juice cause of the malate I think :)

but just a few minutes after ingesting (not very much, perhaps half a teaspoon) I got a flush-like reaction. maybe thats how its supossed to be? but it was so overhelming that it scared the ***t out of me and I thought I will die :D I must admit im a bit of a hypochondriac person and I was not prepared for this strong reaction it gave me so the whole day was full of anxiety. Long before this happened I sometimes took l-arginine and never had a reaction like this, so i thought it could be the malate. but I had ingested magnesium-malate and there was no reaction to it. so it had to be the citrulline I guess, or just a random reaction that I overinterpreted myself. but since then I never touched the citrulline again^^

in addition to this I've read some studies who discovered a link between so called "citrullination" as a link to rheumatoid arthritis. but im not so experienced to say this citrullination had something to do with citrulline as a supplmenet.

for example this studies: (hope the link will work)
Is Citrullination the Missing Link between Periodontal Disease and Rheumatoid Arthritis?
Anti-citrullinated protein antibodies cause arthritis by cross-reactivity to joint cartilage. - PubMed - NCBI

I guess NO enhancement from citrulline could enhance blood flow, and theoretically cause flushing. I used to take straight Niacin with it, and it's flashback to amyl Nitrate - studio 54 !
 

vulture

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I guess NO enhancement from citrulline could enhance blood flow, and theoretically cause flushing. I used to take straight Niacin with it, and it's flashback to amyl Nitrate - studio 54 !
Why you toke it that way?
 

Frankdee20

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Well Niacin didn't bother me much, so I'd stack it to get open capillaries during sex, lol
 
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griesburner

griesburner

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In conclusion, acute L-arginine supplementation does not increase plasma concentration of NOx in healthy individuals with normal plasma concentrations of ADMA.

Yes i think in healthy subjects with proper blood flow it would be a good thing to not overproduce NO and that to me shows that supplementing with something like l-arginine cant be too risky. And if there is an elevation of ADMA, then arginine could correct the ratio again i think.
The l-arginine paradox: Importance of the l-arginine/asymmetrical dimethylarginine ratio - ScienceDirect

Paradoxical effect of l-arginine: Acceleration of endothelial cell senescence
that sounds bad i agree, but like i said i know there are a few studies who show negative effects. But first, this is only in vitro and i dont think if someone ingests arginine per oral there would be any direct contact of the amino acid with the endothelium. But im not sure about that. There are some studies i know that show after long periods of time (6 months or more), arginine supplementation lead to negative outcomes in vivo, too. But otherwise there are again studies who show the opposite^^

But not only in topics like CVD there are coincidences.
For example arginine depletion should be good for cancer i read somewhere. I know the following is only a mouse study but it shows the opposite that on low dose supplementation it is beneficial:
Decreased tumor incidence and increased survival by one year oral low dose arginine supplementation in the mouse - ScienceDirect

And another one on serotonin, the bad guy :)
Endogenous nitric oxide decreases hippocampal levels of serotonin and dopamine in vivo. - PubMed - NCBI
 
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Nitric oxide is like soldiers on the street in a city. You don't want them if things are peaceable. But if things get out of hand and there's lots of unrest, you may want soldiers patrolling the street.

Nitric oxide is like that. It can be a good thing if you have tumors. Or if you can't breathe. Or your blood pressure superhigh.


But it's not good long-term at all. And you shouldn't have to have it or need it.


L-arginine is there to feed nitric oxide. I don't think it's harmful if your body is in balance and you don't need to make nitric oxide. If you need to make nitric oxide, because you're sick, L-arginine is a good thing. But it's not a good thing you need it for very long. And I wouldn't supplement with it.
 
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griesburner

griesburner

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Nitric oxide is like soldiers on the street in a city. You don't want them if things are peaceable. But if things get out of hand and there's lots of unrest, you may want soldiers patrolling the street.

Thats a nice metapher ;)
But if you say its maybe a good thing short term but u woudn't supplement with arginine, maybe there are better options short term?
Lets say if someone has high blood pressure or bad circulation, i know of only two ways in peat-way:
- bag breathing
- improve metabolism
but im not a big fan of bag breathing cause it feels very stressful to me personally, i dont know why ^^ cause its a bit like breath holding - it increases anxiety to me.
and improving metabolism can take long time. And longer periods of bad circulation seem not a good idea.
 
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Thats a nice metapher ;)
But if you say its maybe a good thing short term but u woudn't supplement with arginine, maybe there are better options short term?
Lets say if someone has high blood pressure or bad circulation, i know of only two ways in peat-way:
- bag breathing
- improve metabolism
but im not a big fan of bag breathing cause it feels very stressful to me personally, i dont know why ^^ cause its a bit like breath holding - it increases anxiety to me.
and improving metabolism can take long time. And longer periods of bad circulation seem not a good idea.

We get plenty of L arginine in foods. Even gelatin contains a lot. Bag breathing and carbon dioxide exercises have saved my health and got me off seven medications. They have never failed to help any of my students.
 
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griesburner

griesburner

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We get plenty of L arginine in foods. Even gelatin contains a lot. Bag breathing and carbon dioxide exercises have saved my health and got me off seven medications. They have never failed to help any of my students.
maybe i will try it again and take it slow. what would be a good practice to do it? and what exactly are carbon dioxide exercises? something like the buteyko method?

Anywhere else ive read that thiamine (b1) could increase CO2, is that right? i never found a reference or study to that to confirm that. but i ordered some 200mg tablets to try it out.

i read that b1 is pretty safe, until i found this link:
Potassium and Thiamin (Vitamin B-1) in Heart Disease

Is there any truth to it that it could be dangerous to supplement with thiamine when someone is deficient in potassium? (like in rheumatoid arthritis there are studies to confirm they often got a chronic defiency of potassium)
i was thinking of taking the b1 together with some high potassium foods then, like dried plums.
 

ddjd

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whats the deal with Arginine Pyroglutamate? Isn't that what haiduts put in his cardenosine supplement?
 

yerrag

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Interested in trying out arginine for my high blood pressure.

It's needed to produce vasopressin as well as to produce NO. Both of these are seen in a bad light here, for the stress they can produce. But when my blood pressure is high out of a possible deficiency in vasopressin, it may be helpful to take arginine, or citrulline. I also urinate a lot at night, and it seems I'm lacking in antidiuretic hormone (ADH, or vasopressin).
 

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