Kuinone - Liquid Vitamin K2 (MK-4)

whit

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I didn't think of that angle before! I wonder what Haidut will say about this, are we bypassing the teeth benefit by taking it topically?

What's wrong with doing both.
It should be systemically disributed irregardless. The concentration would spread from the point of application.
 

keith

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I have an older bottle of the stinky stainy stuff. I've taken so many horrible tasting powders over the years that the taste doesn't phase me much, so to avoid the staining, I've been taking it sublingually. Is there any possible harm in using DMSO that way, given its ability to increase the absorption of other things, combined with the fact that I don't often go very long without eating or drinking something?

Also might this be as equivalent to absorbing through the skin?
 
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haidut

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I didn't think of that angle before! I wonder what Haidut will say about this, are we bypassing the teeth benefit by taking it topically?

No, you are not bypassing any organ by taking it topically except potentially the liver getting a lower dose than when taken orally. Teeth probably get higher dose when taken topically.
 

whodathunkit

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I wish it would not cause hair loss for me or I could figure out a way to prevent that. If I could I'd take this stuff every night.
@Tarmander, are you sure your hairloss is caused or made worse by K2? If so, how are you sure?

Also, how long and at what dosage have you been taking it?

I have some hair loss, too, which is why I'm asking. I've been having really good results with K2 lately so this is of concern to me. Thanks for any response! :)
 

Tarmander

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@Tarmander, are you sure your hairloss is caused or made worse by K2? If so, how are you sure?

Also, how long and at what dosage have you been taking it?

I have some hair loss, too, which is why I'm asking. I've been having really good results with K2 lately so this is of concern to me. Thanks for any response! :)

I am pretty sure I narrowed it down to the vitamin K of all my supplements that was causing the hair loss. And that is all forms of vitamin K, not just Kuinone, but oral forms too. I was taking one to two drops of Kuinone dissolved somewhere on my torso before bed.

Over time I believe the reason this was causing me hair loss was increased cortisol production from low blood sugar. I was testing my blood sugar at the time, and did not get low readings, but I have a feeling there was localized low blood sugar that was increasing cortisol production and leading to hair loss. I just recently did a stint of higher protein in my diet, and I got the same hair loss as with the Kuinone supplementation.

Also, while on the kuinone, my hair just felt...off; dry, brittle. I remember when I went off it, my hair over the course of a week got thicker and went back to its normal luxuriousness. Also I had regrowth on the sides where it had receded the most. Vitamin K also increases testosterone quite a bit, and I know the whole DHT theory for hair loss has been explained away, but perhaps that was also a factor. I am not sure. I still use the Kuinone every once in awhile, but I definitely notice the next day my hair feels different.
 
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haidut

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Is the product safe for nursing mothers?

I would ask a doctor before use due to the presence of DMSO. Other than that, I don't see a reason not to use it.
 

DaveFoster

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@haidut

What do you think is a good dose of your product for preventing CAD/CVD/CHD and soft tissue calcification over the long-term (indefinitely)? In other words, what dosage would you endorse as a longevity-promoting dose?
 
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haidut

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@haidut

What do you think is a good dose of your product for preventing CAD/CVD/CHD and soft tissue calcification over the long-term (indefinitely)? In other words, what dosage would you endorse as a longevity-promoting dose?

If taken indefinitely then 5mg a day is probably a good dose. There was a very large epidemiological study that found dramatic drop in all-cause mortality and especially cancer from about 5mg vitamin K2 daily. I would go up to 15mg a day for some people that want to support blood pressure and insulin issues but are still in the "honeymoon" period.
 
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haidut

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Reading this message from HealthNatura:
True K2 the best Mk4 on the market today

I'm wondering, is this product bio-identical MK-4, and does it contain MK-7 as well?

I don't typically respond to marketing spiel. All I can say is that the vitamin K2 in Kuinone is the same type used in the commercial product Glakay and proven to be effective in clinical trials for osteoporosis, and currently in clinical trials for hepatic cancer, Parkinson, leukemia, lymphoma, multiple myeloma, glucocorticoid-induced bone loss, dementia, etc. It may contain some trace amounts of MK-7 but based on the CoA those are truly trace amounts as 99.6% of the contents is vitamin K2 (MK-4). Here is more info on Glakay:
http://www.eisai.jp/medical/products/di/EPI/GLA_SC_EPI.pdf

So, when you buy Kuinone, you are essentially buying generic Glakay at a fraction of the price per mg and with much higher bioavailability. So, the end result is that the price per mg of vitamin K2 (MK-4) you absorb and utilize is the lowest anywhere in the world considering how Kuinone is made. There are additional techniques to increase bioavailability that go beyond just using DMSO as solvent and those unfortunately I can't disclose. Your only real test for effectiveness of a supplement is this blood test from DirectLabs.com and not just a simple measure of vitamin K in the blood. The test below will tell you your "undercarboxylated osteocalcin (ucOC)" in addition to vitamin K levels.
Test Detail

It should probably be combined with this test as well to get a full picture of the vitamin K effectiveness:
Test Detail

So, that's what you are ultimately after - a functional picture of your vitamin K status and how it is affecting the proteins that matter. If you want to compare products, buy them, use separately and do the tests above. Everything else is just words.
Osteoporosis, aging, tissue renewal, and product science
"...While lactic acidosis causes bone loss, acidosis caused by increased carbonic acid doesn't; low bicarbonate in the body fluids seems to remove carbonate from the bone (Bushinsky, et al., 1993), and also mineral phosphates (Bushinsky, et al., 2003). The parathyroid hormone, which removes calcium from bone, causes lactic acid to be formed by bone cells (Nijweide, et al., 1981; Lafeber, et al., 1986). Lactic acid produced by intense exercise causes calcium loss from bone (Ashizawa, et al., 1997), and sodium bicarbonate increases calcium retention by bone. Vitamin K2 (Yamaguchi, et al., 2003) blocks the removal of calcium from bone caused by parathyroid hormone and prostaglandin E2, by completely blocking their stimulation of lactic acid production by bone tissues. Aspirin, which, like vitamin K, supports cell respiration and inhibits lactic acid formation, also favors bone calcification. Vitamin K2 stimulates the formation of two important bone proteins, osteocalcin and osteonectin (Bunyaratavej, et al., 2009), and reduces the activity of estrogen by oxidizing estradiol (Otsuka, et al, 2005).

So, based on the above, I guess another good test for vitamin K effectiveness would be to test estrone sulfate (E1S) and prolactin, in addition to the tests I listed above.
 
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DaveFoster

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If taken indefinitely then 5mg a day is probably a good dose. There was a very large epidemiological study that found dramatic drop in all-cause mortality and especially cancer from about 5mg vitamin K2 daily. I would go up to 15mg a day for some people that want to support blood pressure and insulin issues but are still in the "honeymoon" period.
You know you're obsessed with Ray Peat when you know exactly what the honeymoon period is. Thanks, haidut.
 
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haidut

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For anyone thinking of trying this, I see that Walk-in Lab has the lowest price of the providers I'm aware of. Still $97 though:
Osteocalcin Blood Test - Mineral Deficiency Tests

Thanks Dan! Maybe we can eventually get a list of tests that are Peat-approved so to speak and you can create a page on your website that compares prices for these tests at the different providers.
 

Dan W

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Thanks Dan! Maybe we can eventually get a list of tests that are Peat-approved so to speak and you can create a page on your website that compares prices for these tests at the different providers.
I made something along those lines a couple years ago, but it never really caught on:
TestProviders.com

It's old and dusty though. If enough people are interested, I can refresh it with more tests and current pricing info.
 
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haidut

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I made something along those lines a couple years ago, but it never really caught on:
TestProviders.com

It's old and dusty though. If enough people are interested, I can refresh it with more tests and current pricing info.

Thanks, this is actually great!
It will catch on. I think we just have to mention it more often:) From now on I will refer to your website whenever I mentioned doing personal labs.
 

Dan W

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From now on I will refer to your website whenever I mentioned doing personal labs.
I appreciate it! I updated all the pages and added some improvements. If anyone notices any glaring omissions or knows of any good providers I left out, please PM me.

And it turns out that assuming osteocalcin is always frozen for testing, LEF's "osteocalcin frozen" is the cheapest option at $92:
Osteocalcin Blood Test
 

AJC

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If we were using Kuinone in high doses for short term "liver healing" (using 5mg or so which should correspond to 15 mg of a normal supplement if I've been reading this thread properly) and we wanted to maintain adequate levels of our other fat-soluble vitamins, how many drops of Estroban would we need a day to make sure no imbalances occurred due to the high Vit K?
 
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haidut

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If we were using Kuinone in high doses for short term "liver healing" (using 5mg or so which should correspond to 15 mg of a normal supplement if I've been reading this thread properly) and we wanted to maintain adequate levels of our other fat-soluble vitamins, how many drops of Estroban would we need a day to make sure no imbalances occurred due to the high Vit K?

Vitamin K is unique among all vitamins in that it probably does not need to be balanced by other vitamins. It has no upper known tolerable intake limit for humans or animals, which means that the body likes to get as much as it can. It's the E, A, and D that usually need to be balanced by each other. So, I'd say no matter how much Kuinone you take you can probably keep your regular EstroBan intake.
 

AJC

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Vitamin K is unique among all vitamins in that it probably does not need to be balanced by other vitamins. It has no upper known tolerable intake limit for humans or animals, which means that the body likes to get as much as it can. It's the E, A, and D that usually need to be balanced by each other. So, I'd say no matter how much Kuinone you take you can probably keep your regular EstroBan intake.

Thanks Haidut.

I'm trying to flesh out the mechanics of all of this a little more clearly: I was reading the Lapodin thread and mention is made there that Vit K and those quinones are basically the same molecule on a continuum of potency with Vit K at the low end, tetracycline at the high end, and lapodin in the middle. I then read you and a few others say that lapodin was your "favorite" supplement that you saw the most benefits long term from...based on this I'm wondering--on a theoretical level --if it would be redundant to go high Vit K short term for liver health and supplement Estroban and Lapodin on top of it for the extra quinones, or if Vit K on its own is good enough, or if it would just be more metabolically effective to go Estroban plus Lapodin and get the extra potency...do you know of any studies indicating the overlap/redundancy/synergistic benefits of the Quinone group of molecules in tandem? I don't like engaging in practices I don't understand, and all of the new ways of looking at health and healing are extremely stimulating to my mind.
 

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