Kuinone - Liquid Vitamin K2 (MK-4)

[haidut]

Hello, im new here

Sorry for my bad english im french

I have several questions,

is there an expery date ? (room temp, no sunlight/red light)
Should i keep it in the fridge?
And last question,
do you think it will have any issues shopping to France? (preservation? x-ray (airport)? degradation maybe?)

sorry if theses questions have been already answered before

FDA regulations mandate no more than 12 months of shelf life. It may last longer than that but FDA requires to say no more than 12 months of shelf life. No need to keep in the fridge, at room temp is good enough and just make sure it is not exposed to direct sunlight.
No issues so far with shipping to France, and we have been shipping there for more than 4 years.

 

[Neann]

Thanks !

 

[ddjd]

RP said that vitamin K is extremely light sensitive.

would just a few minutes of light exposure reduce the potency of k2 mk4 ?

 

[Mauritio]

It can lower blood sugar and also increase GABA levels, both of which can cause some of the symptoms you mention. I would always take it food. If you do blood tests please share the results.

@jmojo @haidut
Haidut , you were spot on with this theory! As I mentioned later in the thread I had the same symptoms as jmojo . I recently discovered it was low blood sugar ,which can be alleviated by a BIG dose of sugar especially pure fructose powder.
I always had blood sugar glycogen problems but Kuinone is lowering my blood sugar really really strongly , what mechanism behind that would you suspect?

 

[haidut]

@jmojo @haidut
Haidut , you were spot on with this theory! As I mentioned later in the thread I had the same symptoms as jmojo . I recently discovered it was low blood sugar ,which can be alleviated by a BIG dose of sugar especially pure fructose powder.
I always had blood sugar glycogen problems but Kuinone is lowering my blood sugar really really strongly , what mechanism behind that would you suspect?

It is a co-factor for synthesis of osteocalcin and the latter increases insulin release, which can drop blood glucose. The increase in GABA synthesis also cause by MK-4 can also drop blood sugar levels.

 

[Mauritio]

It is a co-factor for synthesis of osteocalcin and the latter increases insulin release, which can drop blood glucose. The increase in GABA synthesis also cause by MK-4 can also drop blood sugar levels.

Okay besides the general increase in metablism I guess... Is Insulin realease disreable in that context ?

 

[TreasureVibe]

What would offset the face and cheek bone widening effects of vitamin K? @haidut

 

[Amazoniac]

More in support that obscene doses don't make much difference:
- Maximal dose-response of vitamin-K2 (menaquinone-4) on undercarboxylated osteocalcin in women with osteoporosis

And this is for people dealing with osteoporosis. If wealthy, even 1 mg/d must suffice.

@baccheion

 

[baccheion]

More in support that obscene doses don't make much difference:
- Maximal dose-response of vitamin-K2 (menaquinone-4) on undercarboxylated osteocalcin in women with osteoporosis

And this is for people dealing with osteoporosis. If wealthy, even 1 mg/d must suffice.

@baccheion

I mentioned 5 mg 3x/day as one dose that's said to have an effect for some.

The study was reflecting on maximizing carboxylation of osteocalcin. MK-4 has other effects.

In the study that showed 45 mg as the minimum for 45 kg women, 30 mg was tried without success. Also, 45 mg was the minimum. Lookism circles push toward 50-90 mg (spread across 3 servings), an amount closer in resemblance to the 1 mg/kg inferred from the aforementioned study.

1.5 mg MK-4 orally was the amount that resulted in the activation of effects if not trying to do anything in particular. Another study showed nominal activation of osteocalcin at 900 mcg (~1 mg when adjusted to amount for someone weighing 70 kg). 1 mg likely becomes 1.5 mg due to less fat with meals (ie, 1 mg at 20g fat is like 1.5 mg at 14g and 0.5 mg at 34.5g).

 

[Amazoniac]

I mentioned 5 mg 3x/day as one dose that's said to have an effect for some.

The study was reflecting on maximizing carboxylation of osteocalcin. MK-4 has other effects.

In the study that showed 45 mg as the minimum for 45 kg women, 30 mg was tried without success. Also, 45 mg was the minimum. Lookism circles push toward 50-90 mg (spread across 3 servings), an amount closer in resemblance to the 1 mg/kg inferred from the aforementioned study.

1.5 mg MK-4 orally was the amount that resulted in the activation of effects if not trying to do anything in particular. Another study showed nominal activation of osteocalcin at 900 mcg (~1 mg when adjusted to amount for someone weighing 70 kg). 1 mg likely becomes 1.5 mg due to less fat with meals (ie, 1 mg at 20g fat is like 1.5 mg at 14g and 0.5 mg at 34.5g).

You leave for someone that you know nothing about a main suggestion to take 1 mg/kg. Then add (for some reason this time ignoring body weight) that as little as 15 mg/d might be enough some.

Most of the benefits come from reasonable safe doses, which is not surprising because it's all interdependent, it's the usual boring talk but it's true. Shoving down K2 hoping that it works as expected is a barbarian approach, you can probably have human doses being more effective if other nutrients are present along, how else would you change your facial structure without collagen, copper, antidote C, etc?

Lookism circles aren't reliable on what's best to do because it tends to be all about improving looks.


Let's say that they found out it was 45 mg the minimum dose for the desired effect for people with osteoporosas. Where is we at?
Assuming the guy is wealthy, you don't think that this will greatly diminish the needed dose for his case? What about your suggested addition of mk-7 that will take care of clotting and osteocalcid with much lower amounts, freeing up mk-4 for other functions further? 500 mcg of phylloquinone can accomplish this, and likely less if it's mk-7, so if they're taking care of these jobs and we discount these, 69.5 or 14.5 mg of mk-4 is what's required for the other effects that you mentioned?

This is not the first time that you recommend high doses of supplements believing there's no issue in doing so just because they're not toxic or lack apparent side effects. Unfortunately it's not expensive excrement, rebalancing always has a cost, and the closer you get to your upper limit, the more difficult it becomes to tell the negative effect.

The guy in question likely consumes some K in his diet already, yet in the experiments that you mention the participants had it restricted. In one of them (posted on the previous page), the highest dietary amount was 90 mcg/d, but the majority were consuming negligible amounts a day (less than 5 mcg). One more aspect that can lower the requirements.


Regarding the fat content of the meal, I don't know how you arrived on those figures, but it's not linear as you imply, tending to no absorption at all as the meal approaches the fat-free composition.

Your numbers:

Values from 'Effect of Dietary Fat Content on Oral Bioavailability of Menatetrenone in Humans':

100% reference value is based on this meal:
"On the assumption that calories and fat recommended for a 20-year-old Japanese male are taken equally divided among three meals per day, a standard meal (meal B) was prepared, consisting of 722 kcal and 20.0 g of fat (24.9%)."​

People might consume more or less than those 2250 of calories or 25% of their diets as fat. Even though more fat in the meal increases its adsorption, as the fat drops to low, the decrease is not proportional, the efficiency is increased because the 'amount of K uptaken per gram of fat ingested' seems to be higher. On an extreme example, if ingested on empty stomach, some will be adsorbed even if there's not fat. Therefore, if you have to compensate for it by increasing the dose, it won't be as much as you think.

 

[baccheion]

You leave for someone that you know nothing about a main suggestion to take 1 mg/kg. Then add (for some reason this time ignoring body weight) that as little as 15 mg/d might be enough some.

Most of the benefits come from reasonable safe doses, which is not surprising because it's all interdependent, it's the usual boring talk but it's true. Shoving down K2 hoping that it works as expected is a barbarian approach, you can probably have human doses being more effective if other nutrients are present along, how else would you change your facial structure without collagen, copper, antidote C, etc?

Lookism circles aren't reliable on what's best to do because it tends to be all about improving looks.


Let's say that they found out it was 45 mg the minimum dose for the desired effect for people with osteoporosas. Where is we at?
Assuming the guy is wealthy, you don't think that this will greatly diminish the needed dose for his case? What about your suggested addition of mk-7 that will take care of clotting and osteocalcid with much lower amounts, freeing up mk-4 for other functions further? 500 mcg of phylloquinone can accomplish this, and likely less if it's mk-7, so if they're taking care of these jobs and we discount these, 69.5 or 14.5 mg of mk-4 is what's required for the other effects that you mentioned?

This is not the first time that you recommend high doses of supplements believing there's no issue in doing so just because they're not toxic or lack apparent side effects. Unfortunately it's not expensive excrement, rebalancing always has a cost, and the closer you get to your upper limit, the more difficult it becomes to tell the negative effect.

The guy in question likely consumes some K in his diet already, yet in the experiments that you mention the participants had it restricted. In one of them (posted on the previous page), the highest dietary amount was 90 mcg/d, but the majority were consuming negligible amounts a day (less than 5 mcg). One more aspect that can lower the requirements.


Regarding the fat content of the meal, I don't know how you arrived on those figures, but it's not linear as you imply, tending to no absorption at all as the meal approaches the fat-free composition.

Your numbers:

View attachment 13998​

Values from 'Effect of Dietary Fat Content on Oral Bioavailability of Menatetrenone in Humans':

View attachment 13999
100% reference value is based on this meal:
"On the assumption that calories and fat recommended for a 20-year-old Japanese male are taken equally divided among three meals per day, a standard meal (meal B) was prepared, consisting of 722 kcal and 20.0 g of fat (24.9%)."​

People might consume more or less than those 2250 of calories or 25% of their diets as fat. Even though more fat in the meal increases its adsorption, as the fat drops to low, the decrease is not proportional, the efficiency is increased because the 'amount of K uptaken per gram of fat ingested' seems to be higher. On an extreme example, if ingested on empty stomach, some will be adsorbed even if there's not fat. Therefore, if you have to compensate for it by increasing the dose, it won't be as much as you think.

The absorption rate differences I mentioned were based on the study you linked. By observation, some have had success with 5 mg 3x/day. The study originally sourced used 45 mg on women weighing 45 kg, making the associated generalized minimum dose 1 mg/kg.

Where did it state 20g was assumed (study link)?

 

[Amazoniac]

The absorption rate differences I mentioned were based on the study you linked.

¿

By observation, some have had success with 5 mg 3x/day.

That's fair, but seems more like an attempt to spread the 15 mg dose rather than finding the sweet spot for the total amount.

The study originally sourced used 45 mg on women weighing 45 kg, making the associated generalized minimum dose 1 mg/kg.

In osteoporosis where they weren't supplementing other forms.

Where did it state 20g was assumed (study link)?

What do you mean?

 

[baccheion]

¿

That's fair, but seems more like an attempt to spread the 15 mg dose rather than finding the sweet spot for the total amount.

In osteoporosis where they weren't supplementing other forms.

What do you mean?

The study you linked that mentioned 8.8g, 20g, and 34.9g.

MK-4 is spread across dosings to maintain serum level. Same approach used when trying to heal dental caries.

Based on the other study, the first milligram tends to osteocalcin. 120 mcg MK-7 had the same effect as 600 mcg MK-4 and 180 mcg MK-7 the same as 900 mcg MK-4 (adjusted to 1 mg to shift weight to expected 70 kg). From the other study, there wasn't a relevant difference in percent carboxylated osteocalcin above 5 mg 1x/day. In the first, the difference was minimal at amounts higher than 900 mcg. On the other hand, the 5 mg study didn't check any amounts other than 0.5, 5, and 50 milligrams.

 

[Amazoniac]

The study you linked that mentioned 8.8g, 20g, and 34.9g.

Where's the 14 g value from?

MK-4 is spread across dosings to maintain serum level. Same approach used when trying to heal dental caries.

Spreading is a great thing to do, but why not 4 or 6 mg at a time? 5 mg suggests that they had a fixed amount in mind and simply divided it because it works better.

Based on the other study, the first milligram tends to osteocalcin. 120 mcg MK-7 had the same effect as 600 mcg MK-4 and 180 mcg MK-7 the same as 900 mcg MK-4 (adjusted to 1 mg to shift weight to expected 70 kg). From the other study, there wasn't a relevant difference in percent carboxylated osteocalcin above 5 mg 1x/day. In the first, the difference was minimal at amounts higher than 900 mcg. On the other hand, the 5 mg study didn't check any amounts other than 0.5, 5, and 50 milligrams.

If these are taken care of in the lower range, what's your point in mentioning them?

 

[baccheion]

Where's the 14 g value from?

Spreading is a great thing to do, but why not 4 or 6 mg at a time? 5 mg suggests that they had a fixed amount in mind and simply divided it because it works better.

If these are taken care of in the lower range, what's your point in mentioning them?

14 g may be a typical/low amount from a meal. I assumed an exponential change in absorption and interpolated.

You said something about MK-7 and K1 freeing up MK-4 to do other things. Maybe they are freeing up about that much of it. Either way, not a bad idea to add a bit of each (or just MK-7). Relentless improvement has a 15 mg + 60 mcg MK-4 + MK-7 product that scales nicely.

 

[TreasureVibe]

So no one knows how to block the face and cheek bone widening effects of vitamin K?

 

[Amazoniac]

14 g may be a typical/low amount from a meal. I assumed and exponential change in absorption and interpolated.

Why bother calculating and estimating if they already provided reliable numbers? There was the standard meal with 25% as fat calories and two others with 10% for low or 40% for high (compensated for calories).

The corresponding value for 14 g was made-up, wasn't it? Just like the word 'interpolate'. Searching it on Google will return: interpo-what?

You said something about MK-7 and K1 freeing up MK-4 to do other things. Maybe they are freeing up about that much of it. Either way, not a bad idea to add a bit of each (or just MK-7). Relentless improvement has a 15 mg + 60 mcg MK-4 + MK-7 product that scales nicely.

Yes, but once they accomplish those jobs that they're better at than mk-4, the requirement for mk-4 must be markedly reduced. This was one of the reasons to harass Zeus so that he started selling a combination of forms. And when you consider other aspects like not dealing with osteoporosis, consuming some K in the diet, spreading out the dose, having perhaps more fat in the meals that what was used in experiments, the amount needed for an effect decreases further.

 

[Amazoniac]

So no one knows how to block the face and cheek bone widening effects of vitamin K?

I wasn't aware that it can disfigure a person, I thought that it could only realize people's attractiveness. Concerns alike have been more common than I imagined.

 

[TreasureVibe]

I wasn't aware that it can disfigure a person, I thought that it could only realize people's attractiveness. Concerns alike have been more common than I imagined.

View attachment 14003​

Lol well this pic is typically the shape ones face will go toward with high doses vitamin K don't you agree? There was a person on a bodybuilders forum saying his face became too wide and it was less attractive too.

You don't agree vitamin K will widen the face too much which is unattractive?

 

[Gone Peating]

Lol well this pic is typically the shape ones face will go toward with high doses vitamin K don't you agree? There was a person on a bodybuilders forum saying his face became too wide and it was less attractive too.

You don't agree vitamin K will widen the face too much which is in attractive?

He was most likely trolling