Kuinone - Liquid Vitamin K2 (MK-4)

Healthia

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2016
Messages
111
The studies should all be in the Gonadon thread, but I think the dose was an estimate from an in vitro study. At the end of the day experience triumphs all :). How do you even put that much liquid there and have it all absorb?

Wait a minute... I think I remember reading the study you’re talking about in the Gonadin thread, but I think the 3-5 mg optimal dosage for steroidogenesis was referring to one of the active ingredients in Gonadin? Correct me if I’m wrong.
 

Jing

Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Messages
2,559
Hi, haidut I've tried to PM you about kuinone but some reason it says I can't start a conversation with you could you start a conversation on messages with me thanks.
 

Kevin Meirs

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2018
Messages
20
Hey,

just a question on the relationship of K2 / Aspirin.

As far as I have researched Ray Peat said that for every 325mg of Aspirin
about 1g of K2 is needed.
Assuming that Kuinone is about 5 times more potent than any oral administered K2
would mean that for every 325mg Aspirin I would nned to apply around 200mg Kuinone.
If one drop of Kuinone is 2mg I would need to apply 200 drops.
I must be missing a point...
Please help...
 

Kevin Meirs

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2018
Messages
20
It‘s 1 MG K2 for every 325 mg of Aspirin lol
Thanks a lot for clearing that up.
So here in Germany we don`t have these 325mg pills but 500mg pills of Aspirin.
So 1 drop of Kuinonen is the perfect fit for one of these Asprin pills.
Great!
 

Healthia

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2016
Messages
111
Hey,

just a question on the relationship of K2 / Aspirin.

As far as I have researched Ray Peat said that for every 325mg of Aspirin
about 1g of K2 is needed.
Assuming that Kuinone is about 5 times more potent than any oral administered K2
would mean that for every 325mg Aspirin I would nned to apply around 200mg Kuinone.
If one drop of Kuinone is 2mg I would need to apply 200 drops.
I must be missing a point...
Please help...
Haidut informed me that topically applied Kuinone absorbs about 50% of the dose into the body. From my research this can go up or down depending on many factors. But two factors that are pretty simple to remember are: 1) how long the liquid remains on the skin 2) higher absorption rate if skin is hydrated (right after shower or bath)
 

Healthia

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2016
Messages
111
How does that compare to oral MK-4 taken with 10, 20, and 30+ grams fat?
I am not sure but probably a much higher absorption if taken with fat. Just be sure to take it as many hours after Vitamin D as you can. The two vitamins use similar pathways (similar to Zinc/copper and magnesium/calcium). I take Vitamin D in the morning since it can have an excitatory effect with doses higher than 2,000 iu. I would do a bit of research and perhaps find a youtube short Ray peat video about it. Not all Vitamin Ks are created equal. In an interview I believe Ray had stated that it would be a good idea to take K with aspirin because of the blood thinning properties of aspirin. Vitamin K-1 is the form I think he is referring to because I THINK (not 100% sure) it has a higher propensity for clotting than does MK-4 and MK-7.
 

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
8,583
Location
Not Uganda
As far as vitamin K - I had elevated AST and ALT, and slightly elevated GGT back in 2014/2015 timeframe and 30mg MK-4 brought them back to normal within 3-4 days. I know because I was freaked out by the high values and has my doctor retest (against his wishes) only 4 days later. A 15mg dose was able to do the same in a week.
Vitamin K is known to be able to fill in for CoQ10.
Vitamin K2 is a mitochondrial electron carrier that rescues pink1 deficiency. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Human UBIAD1 localizes to mitochondria and converts vitamin K(1) to vitamin K(2). Vitamin K(2) is best known as a cofactor in blood coagulation, but in bacteria it is a membrane-bound electron carrier. Whether vitamin K(2) exerts a similar carrier function in eukaryotic cells is unknown. We identified Drosophila UBIAD1/Heix as a modifier of pink1, a gene mutated in Parkinson's disease that affects mitochondrial function. We found that vitamin K(2) was necessary and sufficient to transfer electrons in Drosophila mitochondria. Heix mutants showed severe mitochondrial defects that were rescued by vitamin K(2), and, similar to ubiquinone, vitamin K(2) transferred electrons in Drosophila mitochondria, resulting in more efficient adenosine triphosphate (ATP) production. Thus, mitochondrial dysfunction was rescued by vitamin K(2) that serves as a mitochondrial electron carrier, helping to maintain normal ATP production."

Vitamin K2 Prevents Lymphoma in Drosophila
"...We evaluated the inhibitory effect of VK2 on the progression and recurrence of lymphoma in Drosophila. When VK2 feeding was stopped, most lymphoma phenotypes recurred. We found that VK2 prevents lymphoma by acting as a mitochondrial electron carrier, which is necessary for establishing mitochondrial membrane potential and facilitating ATP production."

My suspicion is that several quinones can fulfill that function, including vitamin K, MB, and possibly "named" 1,4-benzoquinone, 1,2-benzoquinone, 1,2 and 1-4 naphthoquinones, etc.
Alternative Mitochondrial Electron Transfer for the Treatment of Neurodegenerative Diseases and Cancers: Methylene Blue Connects the Dots
Bypassing the compromised mitochondrial electron transport with methylene blue alleviates efavirenz/isoniazid-induced oxidant stress and mitochondria-mediated cell death in mouse hepatocytes
Alternative Mitochondrial Electron Transfer as a Novel Strategy for Neuroprotection
Nice title (your experiments led me to it):
- Vitamin K2 Takes Charge

upload_2019-6-20_13-21-6.png

- Cellular Respiration Animated (or Inanimated) (4:00)

Two bosses posted that publication:
- Vitamin K2 Is A Mitochondrial Electron Carrier That Rescues Pink1 Deficiency
- Vitamin K2 Is A Mitochondrial Electron Carrier That Rescues Pink1 Deficiency
 
Last edited:
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Appreciate the reply.

What's the point of taking k2 orally in addition to topic application?

Also where would I be able to apply that won't be touched? Only area I can think of is face and under the neck maybe but that might be strange. Arms would work but I only wear long sleeve shirts(office). Hands don't work because I wash them.

I don't really have any source for high dosed oral capsules in europe. Do you know of any? I'm located in Germany to be precise. I believe it's advised against by Haidut to apply anything on the scrotum.

I think you already got your answer from others but I will just add that even a smaller dose absorbed topically likely has more potent effects than larger oral dose due to the first pass effect through the liver. So, as a general rule, oral route is preferred if somebody wants to target/benefit liver more, and topical is usually better when you want more systemic effect. The 15 drops Kuinone topically is probably equivalent to at least 50mg-60mg oral dose in terms of systemic effects, but will affect liver less than the larges oral dose.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Hi, haidut I've tried to PM you about kuinone but some reason it says I can't start a conversation with you could you start a conversation on messages with me thanks.

Sorry, I don't do really PMs any more. It defeats the purpose of having a forum.
You can post your Kuinone question here or send an email to the company address. However, if it is a health related question the staff handling the email address will not answer it.
 

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
8,583
Location
Not Uganda
Oh shiτ, will is vitamin K2 taking charge?

- Vitamin K2 cannot substitute Coenzyme Q10 as electron carrier in the mitochondrial respiratory chain of mammalian cells

"Vos and coauthors have proposed that vitamin K2 can function as an electron carrier in the MRC of a multicellular eukaryote, D. melanogaster[34]. The structure of vitamin K2 is similar to CoQ10, but it has a shorter hydrophobic carbon chain tail with four prenyl units that confer higher hydrophilicity. Because of the better bioavailability of vitamin K2, these findings opened the possibility that it could substitute CoQ10 in deficient patients.

To test this hypothesis, we have employed cells in which CoQ10 biosynthesis was disrupted or inhibited either by genetic or pharmacological means. Our results do not support the notion that vitamin K2 can act as an electron carrier in eukaryotic cells. In fact, even though it can easily reach mitochondria, vitamin K2 could not restore either electron flow or ATP biosynthesis in CoQ10-deficient cells."

Vitamin K2 is not able to correct the defective MRC activities in human cells

"One of the experiments performed by Vos and coworkers to support their claims showed that CoQ10 and vitamin K2 act as electron acceptors from complex II in vitro[34]. However! We now show that neither compound is a good in vitro substrate for Complex II compared to what is considered a good one, DUB[48]. In fact, the ability of vitamin K2 to accept electrons is about two orders of magnitude lower than that of DUB, and the situation for CoQ10 is only slightly better. Therefore, it is impossible to draw any conclusions from this experiment.

In agreement with our results, vitamin K2 failed to rescue mouse embryonic fibroblasts (MEFs) that are deficient for MCLK1 (the orthologue of human COQ7), where it could not restore the respiratory defect caused by CoQ10 deficiency[24].

One of the limitations of our study is that we could not use D. melanogaster cells to exclude that the different results obtained in that model could be due to a species-specific effect. Nevertheless, our data clearly show that the role of vitamin K2 as an electron carrier (if confirmed) is probably restricted to Drosophila, and is not a general phenomenon in eukaryotic cells."​

@Kray
 

Anders86

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2017
Messages
355
If applied under red light, approximate how long time before complete deteriation?
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
Oh shiτ, will is vitamin K2 taking charge?

- Vitamin K2 cannot substitute Coenzyme Q10 as electron carrier in the mitochondrial respiratory chain of mammalian cells

"Vos and coauthors have proposed that vitamin K2 can function as an electron carrier in the MRC of a multicellular eukaryote, D. melanogaster[34]. The structure of vitamin K2 is similar to CoQ10, but it has a shorter hydrophobic carbon chain tail with four prenyl units that confer higher hydrophilicity. Because of the better bioavailability of vitamin K2, these findings opened the possibility that it could substitute CoQ10 in deficient patients.

To test this hypothesis, we have employed cells in which CoQ10 biosynthesis was disrupted or inhibited either by genetic or pharmacological means. Our results do not support the notion that vitamin K2 can act as an electron carrier in eukaryotic cells. In fact, even though it can easily reach mitochondria, vitamin K2 could not restore either electron flow or ATP biosynthesis in CoQ10-deficient cells."

Vitamin K2 is not able to correct the defective MRC activities in human cells

"One of the experiments performed by Vos and coworkers to support their claims showed that CoQ10 and vitamin K2 act as electron acceptors from complex II in vitro[34]. However! We now show that neither compound is a good in vitro substrate for Complex II compared to what is considered a good one, DUB[48]. In fact, the ability of vitamin K2 to accept electrons is about two orders of magnitude lower than that of DUB, and the situation for CoQ10 is only slightly better. Therefore, it is impossible to draw any conclusions from this experiment.

In agreement with our results, vitamin K2 failed to rescue mouse embryonic fibroblasts (MEFs) that are deficient for MCLK1 (the orthologue of human COQ7), where it could not restore the respiratory defect caused by CoQ10 deficiency[24].

One of the limitations of our study is that we could not use D. melanogaster cells to exclude that the different results obtained in that model could be due to a species-specific effect. Nevertheless, our data clearly show that the role of vitamin K2 as an electron carrier (if confirmed) is probably restricted to Drosophila, and is not a general phenomenon in eukaryotic cells."​

@Kray

Well, I guess we won't know one way or the other until an in vivo mammal study is conducted. I have to check some of the human studies with MK-4. Seem to remember that it raises ATP levels, which does imply function as electron carrier in humans but I don't know if anybody has specifically looked into this role of MK-4 in humans.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
If applied under red light, approximate how long time before complete deteriation?

I think an hour or so, depending on the bottle and bulb power output. The non-transparent the bottle could probably make it last for hours/days even under constant beam of red light.
 

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
8,583
Location
Not Uganda
If applied under red light, approximate how long time before complete deteriation?
I think an hour or so, depending on the bottle and bulb power output. The non-transparent the bottle could probably make it last for hours/days even under constant beam of red light.
- Photosensitivity Of Vitamin K2
- Prodrugs for Skin Delivery of Menahydroquinone-4, an Active Form of Vitamin K2(20), Could Overcome the Photoinstability and Phototoxicity of Vitamin K2(20)
Am I missing something?

Why you no longer include your signature smiley in your posts?
 

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
8,583
Location
Not Uganda
"Serum Gla-OC is used as a marker of bone formation, whereas serum ucOC is used as a marker of vitamin K deficiency and as a predictor of hip fracture risk independently of femoral neck bone mineral density [2]; the cut-off value of 4.5 ng/mL for ucOC has been validated [3] and is generally accepted in the selection of Japanese patients for medication for osteoporosis. However, absolute Gla-OC or ucOC levels are not indicative of the overall vitamin K status in the bone metabolism. The ratio of ucOC to Gla-OC (UGR) is therefore used as a sensitive marker of the vitamin K status of bone [4]."

upload_2019-6-29_20-46-15.png

Jōji, was the dose of your products 1.5 mg/serving before? Did you base on the publication above and the other by Takeuchi and friends, who found that "1500 μg/day for 4 weeks significantly improved vitamin K status in wealthy males, but supplementation with MK-4 at 500 or 1000 μg/day did not produce a clear difference compared with placebo", making you choose the assured value given its safety?

1) Do you have the second publication saved?
2) Why did you decide to increase the dose to 2 mg?
3) Please validate today's ethnical characterization.
4) Have a great time in thy interview!
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,798
Location
USA / Europe
"Serum Gla-OC is used as a marker of bone formation, whereas serum ucOC is used as a marker of vitamin K deficiency and as a predictor of hip fracture risk independently of femoral neck bone mineral density [2]; the cut-off value of 4.5 ng/mL for ucOC has been validated [3] and is generally accepted in the selection of Japanese patients for medication for osteoporosis. However, absolute Gla-OC or ucOC levels are not indicative of the overall vitamin K status in the bone metabolism. The ratio of ucOC to Gla-OC (UGR) is therefore used as a sensitive marker of the vitamin K status of bone [4]."

View attachment 13815

Jōji, was the dose of your products 1.5 mg/serving before? Did you base on the publication above and the other by Takeuchi and friends, who found that "1500 μg/day for 4 weeks significantly improved vitamin K status in wealthy males, but supplementation with MK-4 at 500 or 1000 μg/day did not produce a clear difference compared with placebo", making you choose the assured value given its safety?

1) Do you have the second publication saved?
2) Why did you decide to increase the dose to 2 mg?
3) Please validate today's ethnical characterization.
4) Have a great time in thy interview!

Neither study mentions duration of exposure. Did I miss it, or are they assuming some standard exposure time commonly used in the lab? The opaque bottle we now use is really good. The degradation products of MK-4 include several semi-quinones and diols. Neither one was found in any detectable amounts when a bottle of Kuinone was sent to our lab. We kept that bottle on the counter, at room temps, and it would get non-direct sunlight exposure on a daily basis for several months. I think the bottle blocks most of the energetic photons somehow but of course I would not keep Kuinone under the sun if possible just to make sure.
Yes, the original 1.5mg dose was based on the study showing a dose of 1.5mg would be enough to raise OC/uOC ratio. I decided to up the dose because we got some discounts on MK-4 form our supplier and I wanted to transfer some of those savings to our clients. Basically, 30% more MK-4 for the same price :):
 

Amazoniac

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
8,583
Location
Not Uganda
Neither study mentions duration of exposure. Did I miss it, or are they assuming some standard exposure time commonly used in the lab? The opaque bottle we now use is really good. The degradation products of MK-4 include several semi-quinones and diols. Neither one was found in any detectable amounts when a bottle of Kuinone was sent to our lab. We kept that bottle on the counter, at room temps, and it would get non-direct sunlight exposure on a daily basis for several months. I think the bottle blocks most of the energetic photons somehow but of course I would not keep Kuinone under the sun if possible just to make sure.
Yes, the original 1.5mg dose was based on the study showing a dose of 1.5mg would be enough to raise OC/uOC ratio. I decided to up the dose because we got some discounts on MK-4 form our supplier and I wanted to transfer some of those savings to our clients. Basically, 30% more MK-4 for the same price :):
You've left a comment on the linked thread discussing length of exposure.

But our fighter above was concern'd about its degradation under red light when it's applied topically. It shouldn't happen, especially if it's a L and E and D device. However heat lamps should be alright as well:

upload_2019-6-30_7-56-20.png

Source: the internet.

Have you found an opaque dropper for the bottles?

I decided to up the dose because we got some discounts on MK-4 form our supplier and I wanted to transfer some of those savings to our clients. Basically, 30% more MK-4 for the same price
Cool!

There we have it.
 
Last edited:

Neann

New Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2019
Messages
2
Hello, im new here

Sorry for my bad english im french

I have several questions,

is there an expery date ? (room temp, no sunlight/red light)
Should i keep it in the fridge?
And last question,
do you think it will have any issues shopping to France? (preservation? x-ray (airport)? degradation maybe?)

sorry if theses questions have been already answered before
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom