Kuinone - Liquid Vitamin K2 (MK-4)

Makrosky

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I have heard of it causing palpitations without calcium. Think Georgi mentioned it on a D-Rod podcast some time ago. It can be taken without I think. At least that is what I did for sometime, but now I take them together. I think Travis also wrote about k2 causing palpitations, but I am not sure.
I think I noticed that once with the DMSO version but not with the SFA one (yet).

Maybe haidut meant other K2 products like thorne's ? I heard about people having weird reactions with it.

The thing is if you add D then you need some extra A and E I think. Of the 4 fat solubles the only one who doesn't seem to need the others is K AFAIK.

But yeah K2 modifies calcium metabolism so it is one thing to watch out for.

Thanks!!!
 

Lee Simeon

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40-60 ng/mL is one commonly preferred range and is usually achieved with the dose I mentioned. Some even go up to 300 IU/kg (10 IU D3 : 2 mcg+ MK-4).
I think that can be a good way to do it. I am just thinking that I would not go that high without testing where you are at beforehand.
 

Lee Simeon

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I think I noticed that once with the DMSO version but not with the SFA one (yet).

Maybe haidut meant other K2 products like thorne's ? I heard about people having weird reactions with it.

The thing is if you add D then you need some extra A and E I think. Of the 4 fat solubles the only one who doesn't seem to need the others is K AFAIK.

But yeah K2 modifies calcium metabolism so it is one thing to watch out for.

Thanks!!!
The things you say about Georgi talking about other K2 products might be true, but I cant remember what he said. I think he mentioned that palpitations could occur without adequate calcium or Vitamin D, but I might be very wrong. As far as balance, Vitamin K2 might be good regardless, since it seems so very safe. Have used kuinone for a long time and I have nothing bad to say about it. It is certainly the best K2 I have ever tried :)
 

japanesedude

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How much K2 is needed per calcium intake?
Im currently taking 1200mg calcium carbonate/day(divided to twice) with 3mg K2
 

baccheion

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How much K2 is needed per calcium intake?
Im currently taking 1200mg calcium carbonate/day(divided to twice) with 3mg K2
The calcium:magnesium ratio is more important when supplementing calcium. 1:1 is good and it can go up to 2:1.

At least 2 mcg vitamin K2 MK-4 is added to balance each 10 IU of vitamin D.
 

milk_lover

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The calcium:magnesium ratio is more important when supplementing calcium. 1:1 is good and it can go up to 2:1.

At least 2 mcg vitamin K2 MK-4 is added to balance each 10 IU of vitamin D.
Where did you see that ratio between K2 and D? I am interested in reading more about that. Or was it based on your experience?
 

baccheion

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Where did you see that ratio between K2 and D? I am interested in reading more about that. Or was it based on your experience?
I don't remember where I saw it.

One study showed 600 mcg MK-4 activated osteocalcin. At 900 mcg, the "maximum" amount was activated (ie, increasing to 1500 mcg didn't activate much more). Serum vitamin D was 30-35 ng/dL (forget the exact number, but it was in that range) and weight was 58.55 kg.

If serum vitamin D is doubled, then I'd assume 2x as much MK-4 would be required to achieve a similar effect (ie, MK-4 = serum_25(OH)D_in_ng/dl * 900 mcg / 30-35 * weight_in_kg / 58.55) . I think there is a blood test that measure vitamin K level via percent uncarboxylated osteocalcin.

Study: Low-dose menaquinone-4 improves γ-carboxylation of osteocalcin in young males: a non-placebo-controlled dose–response study.
 
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Ron J

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@haidut
I've read the negatives of MK7, but do you think it can be used short-term to decalcify? You mentioned that its long half-life doesn't make it superior, and that it may be detrimental, but do you think it'll reach more tissues(to decalcify) while it's in your system?
 

Mauritio

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I used to be super sensitive to anything that could stimulate me the slightest, so I couldn’t take most supplements and I was deathly afraid of caffeine as it would ruin my day if I ingested it. Began taking kuinone for maybe 2 months now and i’m able to take all kinds of supplements without any anxiety. Better glycogen storage maybe?
Great supplement @haidut
What dosage did you take and did you apply it daily ?
 
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haidut

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@haidut
I've read the negatives of MK7, but do you think it can be used short-term to decalcify? You mentioned that its long half-life doesn't make it superior, and that it may be detrimental, but do you think it'll reach more tissues(to decalcify) while it's in your system?

I don't think MK-7 is a bad thing, I just don't think it has anything to offer that MK-4 does not. If that's all you have access to then I think 100mcg-200mcg daily for a few weeks an be tried for decalcification and then you can get that ultrasound test that measures vessel thickness and flexibility.
 

brocktoon

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Thanks for the feedback. I think the diminishing effects it one reason why Peat has started mentioning to people over email using vitamin K a few times weekly instead of every day (unless they have very serious issues). As far as the pain - I get it from androsterone. Will be interesting to see if you get this from the new formulation of the steroids or Kuinone.
Hi, @haidut . In November 2018, I began a rat experiment using your Pansterone and androsterone in a once a day 4 drop/5 drop combo, taking a week off every 4 weeks (w/good results androgenically). Also began with Kuinone daily by mouth in early December 2018 (10 mg) w/caffeine as part of an NAFLD regimen. Had blood work done in early December, noting high-ish estradiol and continuing low T. Over the past four months or so there has been increasing joint or bone pain during the night, mostly in the upper thighs/hip girdle area and somewhat in lower back. I don't know what may contributing to this -- lowered estrogen? Lowered cortisol? Both? Might I adjust dosages...or try a different combo?
 
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haidut

haidut

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Hi, @haidut . In November 2018, I began a rat experiment using your Pansterone and androsterone in a once a day 4 drop/5 drop combo, taking a week off every 4 weeks (w/good results androgenically). Also began with Kuinone daily by mouth in early December 2018 (10 mg) w/caffeine as part of an NAFLD regimen. Had blood work done in early December, noting high-ish estradiol and continuing low T. Over the past four months or so there has been increasing joint or bone pain during the night, mostly in the upper thighs/hip girdle area and somewhat in lower back. I don't know what may contributing to this -- lowered estrogen? Lowered cortisol? Both? Might I adjust dosages...or try a different combo?

Blood test for estrogen is not reliable. I would measure prolactin instead. Also, when you do androgen tests you probably need to test also for DHEA-S and DHT as Pansterone seems to raise those more than it does T. I would also test cholesterol as if it is low then Kuinone won't have much effect on T. It needs cholesterol to work.
 

brocktoon

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Blood test for estrogen is not reliable. I would measure prolactin instead. Also, when you do androgen tests you probably need to test also for DHEA-S and DHT as Pansterone seems to raise those more than it does T. I would also test cholesterol as if it is low then Kuinone won't have much effect on T. It needs cholesterol to work.
My estradiol level was high (45 pg/ml) back in December, but I think you're saying that's an unreliable blood test along w/estrogen. My prolactin was 6.7, so not high. My T did rise somewhat to 350 on pansterone/andro 4&5 drop combo, but the increasing joint pain at night in my hips/pelvic area is troubling. I'm halving my pansterone/andro dose for now and may decrease my caffeine intake from 300 mg to 100. My estrogen or cortisol may have dropped to a point that is causing the joint (or bone?) pain. I know I'll keep up with the 8-10 drops of Kuinone.
 

Gone Peating

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Blood test for estrogen is not reliable. I would measure prolactin instead. Also, when you do androgen tests you probably need to test also for DHEA-S and DHT as Pansterone seems to raise those more than it does T. I would also test cholesterol as if it is low then Kuinone won't have much effect on T. It needs cholesterol to work.

My cholesterol is only 160, this could explain why I never felt any of the anabolic effects from mk4
 

brocktoon

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Blood test for estrogen is not reliable. I would measure prolactin instead. Also, when you do androgen tests you probably need to test also for DHEA-S and DHT as Pansterone seems to raise those more than it does T. I would also test cholesterol as if it is low then Kuinone won't have much effect on T. It needs cholesterol to work.
@haidut I have a liver diagnosed as substantially fat-laden and, and I've been on the Kuinone/caffeine protocol for awhile now. Can you give me an idea as to how Vitamin K2 MK4 specifically works toward the reduction of fat from the liver? Also, if I'm taking niacinamide with the K2/caffeine, should I limit the dose? I remember you saying that use of niacinamide can "keeps the fat pads you longer" so I'm wondering about niacinamide's use re: NAFLD. Thank you.
 
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haidut

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@haidut I have a liver diagnosed as substantially fat-laden and, and I've been on the Kuinone/caffeine protocol for awhile now. Can you give me an idea as to how Vitamin K2 MK4 specifically works toward the reduction of fat from the liver? Also, if I'm taking niacinamide with the K2/caffeine, should I limit the dose? I remember you saying that use of niacinamide can "keeps the fat pads you longer" so I'm wondering about niacinamide's use re: NAFLD. Thank you.

Lower doses niacinamide should be OK and in fact beneficial. I think up to 500mg daily would be fine. Vitamin K can be used in any dose and its effects are mostly anti-fibrotic to prevent NAFLD becoming NASH or cirrhosis. I'd say 15mg-30mg daily should be enough. Caffeine seems optimal in 200mg-400mg daily doses.
 

brix

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If one has high blood calcium, is vit K the most beneficial vitamin to take?
 
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haidut

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If one has high blood calcium, is vit K the most beneficial vitamin to take?

It may help but it is important to find out why calcium is high. If it is due to dietary calcium deficiency then eating more calcium in addition to the K2 would be better than just taking K2. If PTH is high then adding vitamin D to the K2 is important for optimal effects.
Aside from that, high estrogen/prolactin can elevate blood calcium and in that case K2 may help as it has antiestrogenic effects, as would improving overall thyroid function, using aspirin, vitamin E, progesterone or even chemicals like bromocriptine, cyproheptadine, etc.
 

johnsmith

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I have an old rat who is taking Lixiana (Edoxaban)(an anticoagulant drug which acts as a direct factor Xa inhibitor). Would it be okay to give them Kuinone while on this medication?

It seems ever since they've started using blood thinners, they've gotten skin rashes and a buzzing sensation that goes up and down their spine. They've also recently developed high blood pressure. Any other recommendations? Thanks.
 

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