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Kuinone - Liquid Vitamin K2 (MK-4)

Discussion in 'IdeaLabs' started by haidut, Jan 11, 2016.

  1. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Thanks for the feedback!
    Vitamin K is known to lower blood pressure in some people and when used longer term it may decalcify the vessels, which would lead to BP fall. Peat has been recommending it to some people for BP issues. The vitamin D and progesterone use listed as using can also lower blood pressure and we have a few studies on the forum about that too.
    Vitamin D "as Good As Drugs" In Lowering Blood Pressure
     
  2. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    No, thank you haidut!

    I think I'm on the right track, even as I've not experienced the drop in blood pressure sticking even as I continue to use Kuinone at 15mg/day. It's still very early, and I have to give this time. I believe that after 15 years of my blood vessels being subjected to the stresses of high blood pressure, it would be a slow and gradual process of getting them to loosen their siege mentality.

    I'll continue with the vitamin D and progesterone. I'm also continuing with magnesium, in the form of ascorbate, as ascorbic acid also helps improve the collagen matrix, while magnesium (with b6) helps with decalcification.

    What do you think about me using cyproheptadine to help with decalcification as well? And would lisuride help as far as fibrosis goes? However, I tested low of prolactin (and by extension, serotonin) so I'm not sure if it would help at all.
     
  3. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Cypro may be able to help with both decalcification and fibrosis. It does have some antagonism on 5-HT2B, even though lisuride is more potent in that respect.
     
  4. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Thanks. I'll put cypro on the list to add to my protocol.
     
  5. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    I realize now why I wasn't able to get the effect of K2 to stick, as I wasn't able to get my blood pressure to go down as much as it did the first time. On the 7th day of an all-fruit diet, I ended up eating a buffet, and I ate a lot of meat. I went home and put some drops of K2, and lay down on the infrared mat for 2 hours. And voila!

    So, now I'm going back to eating meat, and hope I can get that lovin' feeling back! Staying away from meat gave me a deficiency that kept the effect of K2 from kicking in. Just now, after rubbing K2 and going on a 2hr infrared mat therapy session, I got a better reading: 164/100.

    Kuinone rocks!
     
  6. andrei

    andrei Member

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    Since i upped my k2 from 5 drops to 10 drops, i noticed a reductiin in caloric intake and fst loss. Any rationale for that @haidut? I want to go as high as 30mg per day to experiment on body comp. I am quite lean to begin with.
     
  7. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Could be due to GABA increase and improved metabolism.
     
  8. johnwester130

    johnwester130 Member

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    does this mean mk7 is better ?
     
  9. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Zeus has addressed this question many times.
    Example: Vitamin K2 (MK-7)
     
  10. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    I think if someone is relying on mk-4 as the sole source of vit K in the diet, it's safer to use less at a time and increase the frequency, just like it happens when a fetus drinks milch.

    - Complexity of vitamin E metabolism

    "Farley et al[232] investigated the influence of α-TOH on phylloquinone or menadione metabolism and excretion. They fed rats with either a phylloquinone or a menadione containing diet (2 μmol/kg body weight) for 2.5 wk and injected after ten days a daily dose of 100 mg/kg body weight α-TOH for a further seven days. Tissue levels of menaquinone-4, a tissue-specific metabolite of phylloquinone and menadione, were decreased in brain, lung, kidney and heart and levels of phylloquinone were decreased in lung independent of the type of diet. The authors observed a downregulation of the expression of CYP enzymes CYP3A, CYP4F4 and CYP4F1, which was explained by an alternative mode of interference of vitamin E with vitamin K metabolism apart from the induced degradation of vitamin K. The induction of the xenobiotic exporters ABCB1/MDR1 and ABCG2/BCRP1 provided the first hints for an increased excretion of vitamin K metabolites into bile. This concept is supported by the 100-fold increased urinary excretion of α-CEHC [vitamin E metabolite] in response to the application of α-TOH, whereas urinary excretion of vitamin K metabolites remained unchanged. In another study, Farley et al[233] focused on CYP4F2, as this protein is involved in the degradation of both vitamin E[140] and vitamin K[234]. The catalytic efficiency of CYP4F2 for the hydroxylation of phylloquinone is higher than for α-TOH, while the co-incubation of phylloquinone and α-TOH had no influence on the metabolism of phylloquinone. Thus, this study indicates that the activity of CYP4F2 is not enhanced by high concentrations of α-TOH. In their most recent study, Farley et al[235] concluded that α-TOH, or even α-CEHC, interferes with an intermediate step in the formation of tissue-specific menaquinone-4 from phylloquinone, such as alterations in the transport via chylomicrons or other lipoproteins or reductions of the cellular uptake of phylloquinone or menadione, an intermediate product of phylloquinone in the menaquinone formation pathway. This hypothesis is supported by findings of Hanzawa et al[236] who found that rats fed a diet with 0.75 mg/kg phylloquinone for six weeks have decreased phylloquinone tissue concentrations with supplementation of 100 mg α-TOH while in rats fed with 0.75 mg/kg menaquinone diet the tissue concentrations of menaquinone remained unchanged with an increased application of α-TOH.

    Finally, the form of vitamin E also contributes to the interference with vitamin K metabolism, as γ-TOH is not as potent as α-TOH in decreasing extrahepatic phylloquinone concentrations[236]. Taken together, vitamin K metabolism is disturbed by vitamin E at the level of extrahepatic synthesis of menaquinone from phylloquinone or menadione and the different vitamin E forms also lead to differing effects on the metabolic interactions."​

    - Vitamin K status in human tissues: tissue-specific accumulation of phylloquinone and menaquinone-4

    "We measured the vitamin K status in postmortem human tissues (brain, heart, kidney, liver, lung, pancreas) to see if there is a tissue-specific distribution pattern. Phylloquinone (K1) was recovered in all tissues with relatively high levels in liver, heart and pancreas (medians, 10.6 (4.8), 9.3 (4.2), 28.4 (12.8) pmol(ng)/g wet weight tissue); low levels (< 2 pmol/g) were found in brain, kidney and lung. Menaquinone-4 (MK-4) was recovered from most of the tissues; its levels exceeded the K1 levels in brain and kidney (median, 2.8 ng/g) and equalled K1 in pancreas. Liver, heart and lung were low in MK-4. The higher menaquinones, MK-6-11, were recovered in the liver samples (n 6), traces of MK-6-9 were found in some of the heart and pancreas samples. The results show that in man there are tissue-specific, vitamin-K distribution patterns comparable to those in the rat. Furthermore, the accumulation of vitamin K in heart, brain and pancreas suggests a hitherto unrecognized physiological function of this vitamin."​

    Therefore a combination of k1 and mk-4 seems preferable.

    I've been one of those that are trying his k1/mk-4 product but waiting a while to be able to leave a dull review. I don't know if he plans to start selling it indefinitely, but hopefully yes. It's a better product for maintenance, I'm becoming certain about it.
     
  11. jamies33

    jamies33 Member

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    @haidut as a Kuinone user, could I also test your k1/mk-4 product?
     
  12. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    john, am I being unfair here in suspecting that you're actually getting paid by the Menaq7 industry to suggest that?

    - Chapter 10. Vitamin K | FAO

    "Human liver stores normally comprise about 90 percent menaquinones and 10 percent phylloquinone (14, 15). There is evidence that the phylloquinone liver stores are very labile; under conditions of severe dietary depletion, liver concentrations were reduced to about 25 percent of initial levels after only 3 days (15). This high turnover of hepatic reserves of phylloquinone is in accord with the high losses of this vitamer through excretion (10). Knowledge of hepatic stores of phylloquinone in different population groups is limited. Adult hepatic stores in a UK study were about 11 pmol/g (14) whereas in a study from Japan they were about twofold higher (15). Such reserves are about 20 000-40 000-fold lower than those for retinol for relative daily intakes of phylloquinone that are only about 10-fold lower than those of vitamin A (16).

    The relationship between hepatic and total-body stores of vitamin K is not known. Other sites of storage may be adipose tissue and bone; both are known to be sites where vitamin K-bearing chylomicrons and chylomicron remnants may be taken up. It has been reported that the predominant vitamer in human cortical and trabecular bone is phylloquinone; unlike the situation in liver, no menaquinones higher than MK-8 were detected (17).

    In contrast to the hepatic preponderance of long-chain menaquinones, the major circulating form of vitamin K is invariably phylloquinone. The menaquinones MK-7 and possibly MK-8 are also present but the common hepatic forms MKs 9-13 are not detectable in blood plasma (16, 18). This might be a consequence of a different route of absorption (e.g., the possibility of a portal route for long-chain MKs versus the established lymphatic route for phylloquinone) but might suggest that once in the liver, the lipophilic long-chain menaquinones are not easily mobilised (16, 18, 19)."

    "Very little information exists on the relative effectiveness of different hepatic forms of K vitamins for the coagulation function of vitamin K in humans. This information is important because of the preponderance of long-chain menaquinones in human liver. Early bioassay data from rats suggested that long-chain menaquinones (MKs-7, 9, and 10) were more efficient than phylloquinone in reversing vitamin K deficiency when single doses were give parenterally and that their sustained response may be due to their slower hepatic turnover (18, 19). A longer duration of the biologic response of MK-9 compared with phylloquinone in vitamin K-deficient rats was also observed by Groenen-van Dooren et al. (20). On the other hand Will and Suttie (21) showed that, when given orally, the dietary requirement of MK-9 for the maintenance of prothrombin synthesis in rats is higher than that for phylloquinone. They also reported that the initial hepatic turnover of MK-9 was two- to three-fold slower than that of phylloquinone.

    Suttie (18) emphasised that the existence of a large pool of menaquinones in human liver does not necessarily mean that menaquinones make a proportionately greater contribution to the maintenance of vitamin K sufficiency. In humans the development of sub-clinical signs of vitamin K deficiency detected in dietary phylloquinone restriction studies argues against this, especially when placed alongside the lack of change of hepatic menaquinone stores (15). One explanation is that much of the hepatic menaquinones is not biologically available to the microsomal g-glutamyl carboxylase because of a different sub-cellular location, especially location in the mitochondria and possibly other non-microsomal sites (18)."​

    I think that a combination of k1 and mk-4 is enough. Why mk-7 in specific? :moneybag:
     
  13. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    We don't have a K2/K1 product. It was just one bottle made for Amazoniac to try. I doubt we will have any more as I am not convinced of the benefits of K1.
     
  14. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    !! I miss this message and didn't know that, what an honor.

    It's unfortunate that you don't plan to sell it. Since chances are remote, I'll antecipate my impression:

    At first I was expecting it to be superior than K2 alone, but after you commented with me your experience, I was prepared to be disappointed. However! I wasn't at all. I've tried different K2 products before (in varied amounts) and none of them came close to this in terms of benefits.

    My teeth has been consistently smooth.
    The jaw musculature has improved.
    Hair quality also improved.

    And I didn't experience something that I get from mk-4 in higher amounts: it just seems to pass through leaving a weird feeling. But more importantly, I didn't go high because it wasn't needed since low doses of the mixture were effective. Given that low doses of K2-only aren't as impacting as the combination, it can only be that both quinones is being synergistic and phylloquinone is hasing an important rôle as well.

    This product made a difference in spite of leafy greeno consumption, this isn't surprising giving that the usual absorption from foods is low. I thought it was remarkable that the combination could provide far better effects using a fraction of supplemental vitamin K, requiring less than half. A decrease of 1 mg might appear modest, but the adsorption of vitamin K from foods tends to be up to 20% (often lower). Cooked kale is one of the best sources, it contains 1000 mcg per cup (130 g). It must require about 5 cups a day to provide the difference (the adsorption from supplements is high but not complete), so it's not a modest drop at all.

    I would still favor mk-4 if I were to use it for therapeutic purposes, it must be safer in the high range and for being unsure if phylloquinone is capable of protecting the body from massive amounts of supplemental vitamins E and D (especially through trans but also dermal route).
    But for foundation so far I prefer the combination without a doubt, and I'm not interested in promoting this product to prove a point. It's not maintenance in place of foundation because I guess it's preferable to complement it with mk-4 as needed.

    When I run out, you can expect a message asking for more unless I notice something adverse until then. Thanks to you for being open to suggestions.
    Guru, I'm not aware of problems, but there might be subtle ones. If I come across something that's not just speculative, I'll let you know. I find it safer to appear to the nature for now, especially considering the commandments above.
     
  15. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Right away I want to comment that I'm not trying to rescue it, I already accepted that it's over. PanKuinone: *2018 - †2019.

    The ratio and doses per serving were neat:
    - 300 mcg k1
    - 100 mcg mk-4

    It's difficult to find a product this balanced out there.

    - A high phylloquinone intake is required to achieve maximal osteocalcin y-carboxylation (link posted elsewhere)

    upload_2019-2-4_19-8-53.png

    The reason why 500 mcg was suggested is because the people recruited were healthy and the experiment didn't demand restrictions, so they might be getting the 130 mcgs as average intake already.

    When the basics are taken care of by dietary phylloquinone, mk-4 is allowed to be distributed throughout the body requiring lower amounts.

    By the way, there's always some undercarboxylated osteocalcin and it's in this form that it has hormone-like functions, not otherwise. Chris suggests that during bone dissolution for remodeling carbon dioxide is released (I'm borrowing this word from the film thread) and this is when it acts on tissues "to improve insulin secretion, insulin sensitivity, blood glucose, the metabolic rate, body composition, and, in males, testosterone production and fertility."

    - The Ultimate Vitamin K2 Resource
    - Undercarboxylated Osteocalcin: Marker of Vitamin K Deficiency, or Booster of Insulin Signaling and Testosterone?

    - Gerard Karsenty | Researching the Gates
    An Overview of the Metabolic Functions of Osteocalcin (!)

    Pretty interesting, isn't it?
     
  16. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    @haidut,

    I just ordered a bottle of Kuinone, I want to give this supp a try again.

    Two quick questions :

    1.- Since Vitamin K helps blood coagulation, would it be dangerous to have it if I have slighly elevated hematocrits, red blood cells count and hemoglobine concentration ? These are the numbers :

    Hematocrits : 0.530 (Lab range : 0.360 - 0.510)
    Red Blood Cells count : 5.62 (Lab range : 3.90 - 5.50)
    Hemoglobin Concentration : 174 (Lab range : 120 - 170)

    Since when I took these blood tests I had been at sea level for about 8 days, coming from living at 3500 meters over sea level for a couple of months, the RBC and Hemoglobin could be because of that I guess. I never had them elevated before.

    Hematocrits I have that slight elevation from more than a year now. My GP says it's not worrying.

    I KNOW you can't give any sort of medical advice. Just give me your opinion on this ;)

    2.- Regarding possible calcium lowering effects of K2, would half a gram or a gram of calcium carbonate be ok to rule out that possible problem ?

    I'm asking because I want to experiment with high K2 doses.

    Thanks a lot!
     
  17. jzeno

    jzeno Member

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    @haidut

    Do you have dosage recommendations for your Kuinone? I'm taking the RDI of 15 mg (10 drops) per day in the morning and generally just drop it onto the underside of my forearms and rub it in.

    Thank you
     
  18. Mossy

    Mossy Member

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    I’ve searched this thread for Thorne K2 users, and do see that some prefer Kuinone. My main objective is to see if anyone has had allergic or negative reactions to Thorne K2, but have none with Kuinone. I’d like the benefits of K2, but I just can’t take the Thorne brand in any manner: topical, oral, or sublingual. I’m guesing it’s K2 that’s the problem, regardless of brand, but am still considering trying a new brand. As K2 is not cheap, it would be great to hear from anyone in my same boat, who has an allergic or bad reaction to Thornes, but has found success with Kuinone.
     
  19. milk_lover

    milk_lover Member

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    I've ordered K2 from Healthnatura but I haven't tried it. Once I do, I will tell you how it feels, having already had success with Kuinone.
     
  20. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Have you read this?
     
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