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Kuinone - Liquid Vitamin K2 (MK-4)

Discussion in 'IdeaLabs' started by haidut, Jan 11, 2016.

  1. Arrade

    Arrade Member

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    15+ years is ridiculous, most studies are evaluated from 1-2 years at a dose of 45mg/day.

    Here's a great link for studies using mk4: https://nbihealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/NBI-MK4-Osteo-Research-Updated_APPROVED-1.pdf
    In 6 months they showed slowing of bone loss from estrogen deprivation. In 10 weeks they showed 45mg/day mk prevented bone loss from those using Prednisolone.
    This study: A longitudinal study of the effect of vitamin K2 on bone mineral density in postmenopausal women a comparative study with vitamin D3 and estrogen-p... - PubMed - NCBI bone density increaed in 12 months for post-menopausal women, and that's without Vitamin D added.
    Using 45 mg mk4 you can see statistically significant effects for bones and cholesterol within a year, over and over. So why would CAC values increasing by 14% after a year not be enough information to tell us something?

    The Rotterdam study: https://www.cardient.com/reference-library/rotterdam-vitamin-k2-study involves Mk8 and Mk9 from dairy."Main dietary sources of phylloquinone in our study were green leafy vegetables and vegetable oils. Menaquinone was present in meats and eggs (MK-4 only), fish, sauerkraut, cheese, and other dairy produce (MK-5 through MK-10) (19)"

    Thus there is no way you can extrapolate that Mk4 is causing the observed reduction in coronary risk, when the diet also includes long-chain menaquinones.

    My point is that I believe long chain mk7-10 has a lot more to do with reducing arterial calcification, and there is very little evidence that supplementing mk4 by itself provides this benefit.
     
  2. jb116

    jb116 Member

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    I actually agree with you myself on using K that provides MK4 and 7. And although there are significant effects within a year, I'm proposing that perhaps for CAC there wasn't enough time to see its full path. But yea, practically speaking, I say use a source that includes both K's.
     
  3. Arrade

    Arrade Member

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    You have a point that maybe a year isn’t enough, though for people with coronary issues it’s kind of scary to think a year didn’t show positive effect.
    The last study of the group of studies link i posted showed mk4 helped reduce cholestserol.
    I also read a couple links that trt improves older men’s heart health, and mk4 increases test.
    From what i’ve seem though, it seems to be the longer chains like Mk7 that reverses calcification, and if that is your goal mk4 might be a distraction
     
  4. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    @jb116
    Vascular calcification can also be due to excessive GR/MR activity and MK-4 may not help much on its own if those hormones are elevated. In fact, glucocorticoid/mineralocorticoid excess is widespread with advancing age and is known to cause arterial stiffness (precursor to calcification) even in young people. Progesterone/pregnenolone combined with MK-4 may be much more effective. See below.
    Cortisol And Aldosterone Cause Vascular Calcification
     
  5. jb116

    jb116 Member

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    So had they measured those hormones, it would have been a complete picture in which combining Progesterone/Preg along with MK4 would have been the solution.
    It would be super interesting to cross reference all successful MK4 studies with ones like above looking at and comparing levels of GR/MR activity.
     
  6. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Those (indirect) comparisons have already been made. In the human trials for osteoporosis the strongest response to vitamin K was seen in people who had the lowest levels of co-morbid osteopenia (which is driven mostly by cortisol/inflammation). In people with severe osteopenia (and thus high cortisol) MK-4 was a lot less effective, this confirming that cortisol can limit the benefit of vitamin K2. So, it would be best to combine the MK-4 with either pregnenolone/progesterone or emodin (which is one of the most potent 11b-HSD1 inhibitors out there). Btw, emodin is also directly anabolic for the bone, which is undoubtedly due (in part) to its inhibition of cortisol.
    https://www.researchgate.net/public..._bone_morphogenetic_protein-2_gene_expression
    Emodin enhances osteogenesis and inhibits adipogenesis
    Emodin regulates bone remodeling by inhibiting osteoclastogenesis and stimulating osteoblast formation. - PubMed - NCBI
    "... Moreover, mice treated with emodin showed marked attenuation of lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-induced bone erosion and increased bone-forming activity in a mouse calvarial bone formation model based on micro-computed tomography and histologic analysis of femurs. Our findings reveal a novel function for emodin in bone remodeling, and highlight its potential for use as a therapeutic agent in the treatment of osteoporosis that promotes bone anabolic activity and inhibits osteoclast differentiation."
     
  7. jb116

    jb116 Member

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    And perhaps another mechanism by which Vit A also helps with bone formation, by opposing cortisol. Also DHEA. And sugar even (along with increasing CO2).

    Awesome, thanks!
     
  8. Arrade

    Arrade Member

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    So after reading what you posted, do you think one dose -20mg- StressNon would be the best option to supplement with Mk4?
    I know you have a progesterone, 5a-dhp, and the CortiNon supplement. I'm looking for the MR antagonism you mention, while having my androgens in best shape.
     
  9. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Both progesterone and pregnenolone are potent MR antagonists. I think the 20mg pregnenolone is plenty, as the study on aldosterone antagonism showed potent effects from nanomolar concentrations, which are achievable with 1mg or even less.
    Pregnenolone Is A Potent Aldosterone Antagonist (antimineralocorticoid)
     
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