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Kuinone - Liquid Vitamin K2 (MK-4)

Discussion in 'IdeaLabs' started by haidut, Jan 11, 2016.

  1. Arrade

    Arrade Member

    15+ years is ridiculous, most studies are evaluated from 1-2 years at a dose of 45mg/day.

    Here's a great link for studies using mk4: https://nbihealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/NBI-MK4-Osteo-Research-Updated_APPROVED-1.pdf
    In 6 months they showed slowing of bone loss from estrogen deprivation. In 10 weeks they showed 45mg/day mk prevented bone loss from those using Prednisolone.
    This study: A longitudinal study of the effect of vitamin K2 on bone mineral density in postmenopausal women a comparative study with vitamin D3 and estrogen-p... - PubMed - NCBI bone density increaed in 12 months for post-menopausal women, and that's without Vitamin D added.
    Using 45 mg mk4 you can see statistically significant effects for bones and cholesterol within a year, over and over. So why would CAC values increasing by 14% after a year not be enough information to tell us something?

    The Rotterdam study: https://www.cardient.com/reference-library/rotterdam-vitamin-k2-study involves Mk8 and Mk9 from dairy."Main dietary sources of phylloquinone in our study were green leafy vegetables and vegetable oils. Menaquinone was present in meats and eggs (MK-4 only), fish, sauerkraut, cheese, and other dairy produce (MK-5 through MK-10) (19)"

    Thus there is no way you can extrapolate that Mk4 is causing the observed reduction in coronary risk, when the diet also includes long-chain menaquinones.

    My point is that I believe long chain mk7-10 has a lot more to do with reducing arterial calcification, and there is very little evidence that supplementing mk4 by itself provides this benefit.
  2. jb116

    jb116 Member

    I actually agree with you myself on using K that provides MK4 and 7. And although there are significant effects within a year, I'm proposing that perhaps for CAC there wasn't enough time to see its full path. But yea, practically speaking, I say use a source that includes both K's.
  3. Arrade

    Arrade Member

    You have a point that maybe a year isn’t enough, though for people with coronary issues it’s kind of scary to think a year didn’t show positive effect.
    The last study of the group of studies link i posted showed mk4 helped reduce cholestserol.
    I also read a couple links that trt improves older men’s heart health, and mk4 increases test.
    From what i’ve seem though, it seems to be the longer chains like Mk7 that reverses calcification, and if that is your goal mk4 might be a distraction
  4. OP

    haidut Member

    Vascular calcification can also be due to excessive GR/MR activity and MK-4 may not help much on its own if those hormones are elevated. In fact, glucocorticoid/mineralocorticoid excess is widespread with advancing age and is known to cause arterial stiffness (precursor to calcification) even in young people. Progesterone/pregnenolone combined with MK-4 may be much more effective. See below.
    Cortisol And Aldosterone Cause Vascular Calcification
  5. jb116

    jb116 Member

    So had they measured those hormones, it would have been a complete picture in which combining Progesterone/Preg along with MK4 would have been the solution.
    It would be super interesting to cross reference all successful MK4 studies with ones like above looking at and comparing levels of GR/MR activity.
  6. OP

    haidut Member

    Those (indirect) comparisons have already been made. In the human trials for osteoporosis the strongest response to vitamin K was seen in people who had the lowest levels of co-morbid osteopenia (which is driven mostly by cortisol/inflammation). In people with severe osteopenia (and thus high cortisol) MK-4 was a lot less effective, this confirming that cortisol can limit the benefit of vitamin K2. So, it would be best to combine the MK-4 with either pregnenolone/progesterone or emodin (which is one of the most potent 11b-HSD1 inhibitors out there). Btw, emodin is also directly anabolic for the bone, which is undoubtedly due (in part) to its inhibition of cortisol.
    Emodin enhances osteogenesis and inhibits adipogenesis
    Emodin regulates bone remodeling by inhibiting osteoclastogenesis and stimulating osteoblast formation. - PubMed - NCBI
    "... Moreover, mice treated with emodin showed marked attenuation of lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-induced bone erosion and increased bone-forming activity in a mouse calvarial bone formation model based on micro-computed tomography and histologic analysis of femurs. Our findings reveal a novel function for emodin in bone remodeling, and highlight its potential for use as a therapeutic agent in the treatment of osteoporosis that promotes bone anabolic activity and inhibits osteoclast differentiation."
  7. jb116

    jb116 Member

    And perhaps another mechanism by which Vit A also helps with bone formation, by opposing cortisol. Also DHEA. And sugar even (along with increasing CO2).

    Awesome, thanks!
  8. Arrade

    Arrade Member

    So after reading what you posted, do you think one dose -20mg- StressNon would be the best option to supplement with Mk4?
    I know you have a progesterone, 5a-dhp, and the CortiNon supplement. I'm looking for the MR antagonism you mention, while having my androgens in best shape.
  9. OP

    haidut Member

    Both progesterone and pregnenolone are potent MR antagonists. I think the 20mg pregnenolone is plenty, as the study on aldosterone antagonism showed potent effects from nanomolar concentrations, which are achievable with 1mg or even less.
    Pregnenolone Is A Potent Aldosterone Antagonist (antimineralocorticoid)
  10. LLight

    LLight Member

    Hello Haidut,

    I don't know if you can make such recommendation, but would you recommend Kuinone for Hodgkin lymphoma ? I've bought a bottle but I would like to be sure there is no contraindication.

    Otherwise, what other supplements/lifestyle intervention would you recommend ?

    My plan is to also supplement at least :
    - retinil palmitate, 10 000 iu per day
    - aspirin
    - iodine/selenium
    - collagen

    Thanks in advance.
  11. TreasureVibe

    TreasureVibe Member

    How should Kuinone along with other Idea Labs product be stored?
  12. Tyler2834

    Tyler2834 Member

    Just make sure it's not stored where there is any sun light and you should be good.

    Is anyone taking Kuinone with good results?
  13. Tyler2834

    Tyler2834 Member

    I just received my bottle of Kuinone and I plan on taking 2-3 drops per day. Couple Questions:

    1) Is it okay if I use both methods (topical and oral) daily?

    2) Should I take 2-3 drops all at once or spread out throughout the day? With meals?

    3) I'm looking to improve digestion, thyroid and libdio. Would it benefit me to apply the drops on my testes?
  14. TreasureVibe

    TreasureVibe Member

    Applying on testes is always bad I recall having read on the forum here. Because hormones have different effects in the body when applied to the testes.
  15. Tyler2834

    Tyler2834 Member

    I'll probably just put a few drops on my inner elbow. How would one even take a single drop orally?
  16. OP

    haidut Member

    I can't recommend for specific conditions but there is a company in the USA running multiple trials with vitamin K for pretty much all types of blood cancers, including lymphomas. The dose is usually 45mg daily in those trials, but I don't know if lower dose would help as well. Peat seems to think it would have effects even in 10mg-15mg range. Methylene blue also seems to help, in doses of 1mg-5mg daily.
  17. OP

    haidut Member

    After we started using the opaque bottles there are no specific storage requirements but it probably still helps a bit to keep away from direct sunlight.
  18. OP

    haidut Member

    We can only endorse topical use officially. Any body area should work as application target but Peat recommends applying on larger body parts like shoulder, legs, and torso.
  19. LLight

    LLight Member

    Thank you very much for your answer and suggestion :):
  20. Krollic

    Krollic Member

    Hello, I'm new here and just bought this product today so please forgive my extreme ignorance. I've recently discovered that I have an serious lack of d3 and k2 in my diet and am trying to rectify it via supplementation as changing my diet or getting sunshine aren't feasible atm. A few questions:

    I've heard this product has a higher bio-availability/potency due to being topical and as such doesn't require as many drops despite being 1.5mg. How many mg of capsule mk-4 is equivalent to a drop of this stuff?

    Supposedly D3 works very well in tandem with mk-4 and is dangerous without it in high doses. Is 10,000 u.i of topical D3 daily acceptable for this level of mk-4?

    Going on from my first question; What sort of dosage do I need to visibly influence bone growth with this product? I've heard it's anywhere from 15-45mg but I'm not exactly sure when it comes to a topical application. I know that you can't really overdose with mk-4 but I'd still like to be efficient with it.

    Can I apply d3 & mk-4 at the same time?

    Would you recommend doing it before bed?

    Do I need to consume a fat like coconut oil before using it? I doubt it.

    How long does it take to get results on full dose?

    Any other advice for a newbie would be much appreciated. Thanks!