Kuinone - Liquid Vitamin K2 (MK-4)

[Wagner83]

@haidut Any idea on the question raised in the last two posts?

 

[haidut]

Is 17bHSD 4 only responsible for estrogen metabolism ? Is it the same as 17bHSD which, looking at the chart, converts dhea into androstenediol ( -> T) and androstenedione into T, as well as androsterone <-> 5a-androstanediol .

The 17b-HSD4 is also responsible for fatty acid oxidation, so inhibiting it may be a good thing. But it is also responsible for converting estradiol to estrone, which Peat mentioned as a good thing in one of his articles.
HSD17B4 - Wikipedia

 

[Dante]

Is 17bHSD 4 only responsible for estrogen metabolism ? Is it the same as 17bHSD which, looking at the chart, converts dhea into androstenediol ( -> T) and androstenedione into T, as well as androsterone <-> 5a-androstanediol .

The key role of 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases in sex steroid biology. - PubMed - NCBI
Well this paper says 17b-HSD4 oxidizes estradiol to estrone and hermaphrodiol to DHEA. It doesn't deal with androstenedione -> T or the reverse process for that matter.I don't think vitamin k2 is inhibiting 17b-HSD4 , it seems rather an "agonist" of the enzyme. If that's the case then that's a good thing as according to haidut hermaphrodiol seems to be the culprit in MPB and PC ( k2 should increase the ratio of DHEA/hermaphrodiol ).

 

[japanesedude]

What would be the proper doses of D3 and K2?
VitD 4000 IU:K2 3mg(2 drops Kunone) ?

 

[haidut]

What would be the proper doses of D3 and K2?
VitD 4000 IU:K2 3mg(2 drops Kunone) ?

There is no optimal ratio AFAIK simply because the vitamin K has no known optimal dose and no upper limit either. The body seems to like getting as much as it can. The study on ergogenic benefits mentioned 5,000 - 10,000 IU vitamin D and 1mg - 5mg vitamin K, so maybe you can try that.

 

[BibleBeliever]

Is this product renamed on the site? Looking for it and this is the version your replaces?
Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Thorne Research - Vitamin K2 Liquid (1 mg/drop) - Concentrated Vitamin K2 Supplement - 30 ml

Never mind was able to find it. Had to google your site plus vitamin k2. One version of your site shows one set of products, another version shows another set of products.

 

[japanesedude]

There is no optimal ratio AFAIK simply because the vitamin K has no known optimal dose and no upper limit either. The body seems to like getting as much as it can. The study on ergogenic benefits mentioned 5,000 - 10,000 IU vitamin D and 1mg - 5mg vitamin K, so maybe you can try that.

I see.
I just orderd 4000IU vit D drop so I'll stack with 2-5mg Kuinone.

 

[haidut]

Is this product renamed on the site? Looking for it and this is the version your replaces?
Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Thorne Research - Vitamin K2 Liquid (1 mg/drop) - Concentrated Vitamin K2 Supplement - 30 ml

Never mind was able to find it. Had to google your site plus vitamin k2. One version of your site shows one set of products, another version shows another set of products.

Where do you see 2 versions of our product listed?

 

[What-a-Riot]

@haidut he's probably referring to the separate supplement and research chemical pages, so at first he couldn't find the product because he was on the wrong page

also, if kuinone is no longer using DMSO, can you edit the original post to reflect that. and from what i gathered from the Idealabs comments and suggestions page. Now I'm wishing I had voiced support for DMSO solutions when the controversy over it flared up. Or that I just never was made aware how effectively DMSO solutions were absorbed. Can you comment at all on the new Kuinone formula's absorption patterns (or whatever the proper phrase would be for that idea)

 

[haidut]

@haidut he's probably referring to the separate supplement and research chemical pages, so at first he couldn't find the product because he was on the wrong page

also, if kuinone is no longer using DMSO, can you edit the original post to reflect that. and from what i gathered from the Idealabs comments and suggestions page. Now I'm wishing I had voiced support for DMSO solutions when the controversy over it flared up. Or that I just never was made aware how effectively DMSO solutions were absorbed. Can you comment at all on the new Kuinone formula's absorption patterns (or whatever the proper phrase would be for that idea)

I will change all the pages for the new solvent being used now. The studies we looked at said that when the new solvent is mixed with ethanol in a 1:1 ratio it shows the same absorption effectiveness as DMSO:ethanol mix. I actually like the new solvent a lot. The only difference i feel is delayed effects when applied topically compared to DMSO. With DMSO it would take about 2min-5min to feel the effect and some aftertaste and with the new solvent it takes about 10min to feel the effects and there is no aftertaste.

 

[Lee Simeon]

Wait what DMSO is replaced? Is there any large differences? I just received my first batch and I think it is DMSO.

 

[mistermr]

So would the new solvents be considered liposomal delivery?
Are they still more effective topically than orally?

 

[haidut]

Wait what DMSO is replaced? Is there any large differences? I just received my first batch and I think it is DMSO.

The Kuinone just started using the new solvent. You may have gotten one of the last bottles of the DMSO batch. I don't think there is any difference in absorption based on our tests, and the only difference we saw is a bit delayed effects. With DMSO you can sense the effects of the vitamin within say 5 min while with the new solvent it is probably within 10min. Also, with the new solvent it seems that the effects are longer lasting. Not sure why, but I guess nobody will complain about that.

 

[haidut]

So would the new solvents be considered liposomal delivery?
Are they still more effective topically than orally?

No, not liposomal as there is no encapsulation of active ingredient by lipid layer. It's just a solvent mix of ethanol and a fatty ester, which has been shown to be optimal for transdermal delivery and much better than ethanol on its own. When only ethanol is used, depending on the concentration, the ethanol evaporates too quickly from the skin and fails to carry the ingredient through the skin.
Topical would still be the preferred route.

 

[Lee Simeon]

The Kuinone just started using the new solvent. You may have gotten one of the last bottles of the DMSO batch. I don't think there is any difference in absorption based on our tests, and the only difference we saw is a bit delayed effects. With DMSO you can sense the effects of the vitamin within say 5 min while with the new solvent it is probably within 10min. Also, with the new solvent it seems that the effects are longer lasting. Not sure why, but I guess nobody will complain about that.

Is there a significant reason for changing it though?

 

[haidut]

Is there a significant reason for changing it though?

Well, there has been a consistent movement over the last 6 months to portray DMSO as risky and even dangerous substance. Peat has been consulted many times and he seems cautious about it too even though he said in doses found in our supplements it is probably safe. So, in the interest of alleviating these fears we tried to change the solvent as promised. We have not given up on DMSO yet, maybe it will just become another solvent option to choose from.

 

[Wagner83]

Well, there has been a consistent movement over the last 6 months to portray DMSO as risky and even dangerous substance. Peat has been consulted many times and he seems cautious about it too even though he said in doses found in our supplements it is probably safe.

Well from what I have seen people have either asked for an other solvent because of issues they encountered with it or discussed studies which showed potential hazardous effects, I did not see many people trying to "portray" DMSO as something in particular, and as you said Ray is against its use on scrotum , I think he said it was probably ok in doses as found in your supplements orally , I don't think he was positive about it if used daily, even in the very small doses found in your supplement, but I could be wrong. Anyways if 5% dmso solution work fine and if the new solvent is safe and effective I don't see anything wrong about it.

 

[haidut]

Well from what I have seen people have either asked for an other solvent because of issues they encountered with it or discussed studies which showed potential hazardous effects, I did not see many people trying to "portray" DMSO as something in particular, and as you said Ray is against its use on scrotum , I think he said it was probably ok in doses as found in your supplements orally , I don't think he was positive about it if used daily, even in the very small doses found in your supplement, but I could be wrong. Anyways if 5% dmso solution work fine and if the new solvent is safe and effective I don't see anything wrong about it.

I meant people on the other forum and the few users here that directly complained and started threads here saying DMSO is bad. I think you have seen those threads. Not directed at you, the discussion on the pros and cons of DMSO are definitely legit. It's the personal attacks I got over email and the threads that keep being posted on the other forum.
Anyways, a mixture with DMSO, ethanol and the SFA ester may end up being the default for some supplements like MelaNon as the ingredients in it do not dissolve well in the fatty esters.

 

[Wagner83]

I meant people on the other forum and the few users here that directly complained and started threads here saying DMSO is bad. I think you have seen those threads. Not directed at you, the discussion on the pros and cons of DMSO are definitely legit. It's the personal attacks I got over email and the threads that keep being posted on the other forum.
Anyways, a mixture with DMSO, ethanol and the SFA ester may end up being the default for some supplements like MelaNon as the ingredients in it do not dissolve well in the fatty esters.

Ok cool thanks for clarifiying .

Btw I'm using Kuinone again, 3-4 drops and everything is better (mood, energy, morning wood etc..), I'm also eating a bit more fat but it seems to be quite consistent with my previous use of Kuinone.
Aromatase inhibitors promptly give me issues in the spine (feels like vertrebraes are getting closer with some very sligh nerve pinching etc..) , kuinone does give some of those but for now it's more tolerable than extracting a ***t ton of white button mushrooms and drinking the juice.

 

[Lee Simeon]

Ok cool thanks for clarifiying .

Btw I'm using Kuinone again, 3-4 drops and everything is better (mood, energy, morning wood etc..), I'm also eating a bit more fat but it seems to be quite consistent with my previous use of Kuinone.
Aromatase inhibitors promptly give me issues in the spine (feels like vertrebraes are getting closer with some very sligh nerve pinching etc..) , kuinone does give some of those but for now it's more tolerable than extracting a ***t ton of white button mushrooms and drinking the juice.

Is this with the DMSO version?