Home > Merchants > Merchant Forums > IdeaLabs > Kuinone - Liquid, High-dose Vitamin K2 (MK-4) Supplement

Kuinone - Liquid, High-dose Vitamin K2 (MK-4) Supplement

  1. Over the last year a number of people on the forum asked me to release a vitamin K2 supplement as an alternative to the popular (but expensive) Thorne K2 supplement. So, I finally got around to delivering on my promise. Kuinone is a liquid dietary supplement with menatetrenone (MK-4) dissolved in ethanol and SFA esters. If you are wondering what's up with the weird name, well it is a play on the fact that vitamin K is a naphthoquinone, or a type of (q)uinone just like the well-known CoQ10. So, I combined the K from vitamin K and the word quinone to form Kuinone. Hopefully, it is not too confusing to people what the word means.
    The fact that it is dissolved in SFA esters + ethanol mixture should dramatically improve topical absorption and allow a much lower daily dose to be used, which will make the bottle last much longer and thus further decrease the overall cost.
    Finally, while the bone benefits of vitamin K2 are known to many people on the forum, some of its "niche" effects are not widely known. So, I compiled a (long) list of references broken down by categories for the people who are interested in finding out more about this amazing substance.

    *******************************************************************************
    Kuinone is a dietary supplement containing vitamin K2 (MK-4) also known as menatetrenone. This product, while consisting entirely of food-grade ingredients, is sanctioned for external use only.

    Servings per container: about 720
    Serving size: 1 drop
    Each serving contains the following ingredients:

    Vitamin K2 (MK-4) - 1.5mg

    Other ingredients: SFA esters, ethanol
    *******************************************************************************

    References:

    General
    Highly recommended dose of MK4 for osteoporosis. - PubMed - NCBI
    Vitamins D and K as pleiotropic nutrients: clinical importance to the skeletal and cardiovascular systems and preliminary evidence for synergy. - PubMed - NCBI
    Vitamin E and K interactions--a 50-year-old problem. - PubMed - NCBI
    Pleiotropic actions of vitamin K: protector of bone health and beyond? - PubMed - NCBI
    Exocrine pancreatic secretion of phospholipid, menaquinone-4, and caveolin-1 in vivo. - PubMed - NCBI
    Improvement of vitamin K status of breastfeeding infants with maternal supplement of vitamin K2 (MK40). - PubMed - NCBI
    Antinociceptive effect induced by intraperitoneal administration of vitamin K2 (menatetrenone) in ICR mice. - PubMed - NCBI
    Effect of dietary fat content on oral bioavailability of menatetrenone in humans. - PubMed - NCBI
    Effect of food composition on vitamin K absorption in human volunteers. - PubMed - NCBI
    Distribution of menaquinone-4, a therapeutic agent for osteoporosis, in bone and other tissues of rats. - PubMed - NCBI


    Bone Health
    Treatment of glucocorticoid-induced low bone mineral density in children: a systematic review. - PubMed - NCBI
    Low-dose menaquinone-4 improves γ-carboxylation of osteocalcin in young males: a non-placebo-controlled dose-response study. - PubMed - NCBI
    Vitamin K2 improves femoral bone strength without altering bone mineral density in gastrectomized rats. - PubMed - NCBI
    Vitamin K₂ therapy for postmenopausal osteoporosis. - PubMed - NCBI
    Vitamin K-dependent carboxylation of osteocalcin affects the efficacy of teriparatide (PTH(1-34)) for skeletal repair. - PubMed - NCBI
    Menatetrenone versus alfacalcidol in the treatment of Chinese postmenopausal women with osteoporosis: a multicenter, randomized, double-blinded, do... - PubMed - NCBI
    Effects of vitamin K in postmenopausal women: mini review. - PubMed - NCBI
    Menatetrenone for the treatment of osteoporosis. - PubMed - NCBI
    Strategy for prevention of hip fractures in patients with Parkinson's disease. - PubMed - NCBI
    Prevention of bone loss in children receiving long-term glucocorticoids with calcium and alfacalcidol or menatetrenone. - PubMed - NCBI
    Amelioration of pregnancy-associated osteoporosis after treatment with vitamin K₂: a report of four patients. - PubMed - NCBI
    Clinical results of alendronate monotherapy and combined therapy with menatetrenone (VitK₂) in postmenopausal RA patients. - PubMed - NCBI
    Bridging the gap between osteoporosis and osteonecrosis of the jaw: preventing and treating BRONJ with MK4. - PubMed - NCBI
    Vitamin K supplement along with vitamin D and calcium reduced serum concentration of undercarboxylated osteocalcin while increasing bone mineral de... - PubMed - NCBI
    The prevention of hip fracture with menatetrenone and risedronate plus calcium supplementation in elderly patients with Alzheimer disease: a random... - PubMed - NCBI
    Effect of vitamin K2 on cortical and cancellous bone mass and hepatic lipids in rats with combined methionine-choline deficiency. - PubMed - NCBI
    Effect of GGCX gene polymorphism on the responses of serum undercarboxylated osteocalcin and bone turnover markers after treatment with vitamin K2 ... - PubMed - NCBI
    Effects of long-term vitamin K(1) (phylloquinone) or vitamin K(2) (menaquinone-4) supplementation on body composition and serum parameters in rats. - PubMed - NCBI
    Vitamin K₂ alters bone metabolism markers in hemodialysis patients with a low serum parathyroid hormone level. - PubMed - NCBI
    Effects of vitamin K2 on cortical and cancellous bone mass, cortical osteocyte and lacunar system, and porosity in sciatic neurectomized rats. - PubMed - NCBI
    Vitamin K2 promotes bone healing in a rat femoral osteotomy model with or without glucocorticoid treatment. - PubMed - NCBI
    Effects of combination treatment with alendronate and vitamin K(2) on bone mineral density and strength in ovariectomized mice. - PubMed - NCBI
    Prevention of hip fractures by exposure to sunlight and pharmacotherapy in patients with Alzheimer's disease. - PubMed - NCBI
    Vitamin K to prevent fractures in older women: systematic review and economic evaluation. - PubMed - NCBI
    Vitamin K promotes mineralization, osteoblast-to-osteocyte transition, and an anticatabolic phenotype by {gamma}-carboxylation-dependent and -indep... - PubMed - NCBI
    Efficacy of menatetrenone (vitamin K2) against non-vertebral and hip fractures in patients with neurological diseases: meta-analysis of three rando... - PubMed - NCBI
    Comparison of the effect of vitamin K(2) and risedronate on trabecular bone in glucocorticoid-treated rats: a bone histomorphometry study. - PubMed - NCBI
    Collagen-related abnormalities, reduction in bone quality, and effects of menatetrenone in rats with a congenital ascorbic acid deficiency. - PubMed - NCBI
    Prior treatment with vitamin K(2) significantly improves the efficacy of risedronate. - PubMed - NCBI
    Short-term menatetrenone therapy increases gamma-carboxylation of osteocalcin with a moderate increase of bone turnover in postmenopausal osteoporo... - PubMed - NCBI
    Vitamin K treatment reduces undercarboxylated osteocalcin but does not alter bone turnover, density, or geometry in healthy postmenopausal North Am... - PubMed - NCBI
    Randomized controlled study on the prevention of osteoporotic fractures (OF study): a phase IV clinical study of 15-mg menatetrenone capsules. - PubMed - NCBI
    Vitamin K2, a gamma-carboxylating factor of gla-proteins, normalizes the bone crystal nucleation impaired by Mg-insufficiency. - PubMed - NCBI
    [Treatment of primary osteoporosis with vitamin K2]. - PubMed - NCBI
    [Vitamin K metabolism. Menaquinone-4 (MK-4) formation from ingested VK analogues and its potent relation to bone function]. - PubMed - NCBI
    Vitamin K2 induces phosphorylation of protein kinase A and expression of novel target genes in osteoblastic cells. - PubMed - NCBI
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17875939
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17287908
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17274493
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17190100
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17187189
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16972672
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16883044
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16883037
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16594930
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16362462
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16261991
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15995297
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15995296
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15930719
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15886487
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15698851
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15664003
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15616893
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15542039
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15454094
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15003806
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14715241
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14712427
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14598912
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14529146
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14506958
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12923464
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12686368
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12674339
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12630919
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12568732
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12526283
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12477571
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12396032
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12271515
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12201222
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12115067
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12110423
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12073154
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12003435
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11895104
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11855678
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11853280
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11846334
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11793169
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11706280
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11403096
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11180916
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11144162
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11113387
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10977000
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10750566
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10652960
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10633277
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10621944
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10446758
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10443663
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10227010
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9844410
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9737352
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9076586
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8939773
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7756045
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7821350
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7927067
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8089928
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8155403
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8371513
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1530637

    Inflammation
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8240383
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8511981


    Cardiovascular disease (CVD)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23344475
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18234293
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14654717
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9414028
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9247360

    Diabetes
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21136047
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11325029

    Kidney Health
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22080166

    Cancer
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23225445
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23191943
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21661384
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21410069
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22870131
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21163409
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21109972
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20569983
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19639210
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19550077
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19501932
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18251162
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17404108
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17399847
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17376044
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16400650
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11925874
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11807630
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10865985
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10641439
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9827941
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9177427
    https://www.glowm.com/pdf/Book-OvarianCancerTherapeutics-CC-BY-Ch13.pdf




    Neurological Health
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24108469
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23682563
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20092997
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19235890
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14704312

    Testosterone
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21914161
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21894328

    Estrogen
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15763078
     
  2. Very nice. Would the place of topical application have different effects? I.e. Applying it to the jaw would give a "strengthening"/wider look?
     
  3. I have not seen any studies on that, probably because not many scientists have thought of using vitamin K topically. However, I think that would be an interesting experiment. Another interesting one would be applying on the testicles or in that general area given the studies showing vitamin K directly stimulated testicle testosterone synthesis form precursors like pregnenolone and DHEA. So, a few drops of Pansterone and 1 drop of Kuinone may have an effect.
     
  4. I placed an order and I can't wait for it to arrive :) I've been thinking of mk-4 all this time and I want to experiment with it. Thanks haidut!
     
  5. Thanks for ordering. It will probably ship today. Please keep me posted on your results.
     
  6. I will :)
     
  7. Rub it on your balls dude and let us know
     
  8. :lol: well that's a possibility! I have some ideas about mk-4, in the meantime I will go through the mk-4 posts on the site to educate myself more.
     
  9. It is for SCIENCE man...reach for the stars
     
  10. Congrats Haidut, this looks cool. I just wish you'd included a reference or two in your post :)
     
  11. Amazing, thanks! Apologies if you have mentioned this elsewhere, but have you ever seen evidence to suggest depletion of other fat solubles by large doses of K2? I've heard this mentioned but never actually seen evidence for it.
     
  12. I have seen evidence for large doses of vitamin E depleting vitamin K, not the other way around. But the dose of vitamin E was high and taken long term. It was equivalent to 2g for a human taken for 6 months. Not something very realistic, but the depletion of vitamin K by vitamin is thought to be the reason behind the negative effects in the clinical trials with vitamin E and prostate cancer.
    viewtopic.php?t=8569
     
  13. Thanks, and I actually just saw that in the third study you have attached there is a possible mechanism for E's depletion of K but not the other way round.
     
  14. Haidut, have you posted before on the chemical similarities and implications between vitamin K and things like tetracycline? I know you mentioned it in one of the podcasts with Danny Roddy but I wanted to hear a bit more. If that's included in the references you posted I apologize but I did not find it.

    Edit: I looked a bit harder and found this from Haidut, it might be useful to others:

     
  15. In terms of absorption, how would this MK-4 used transdermally compare with other MK-4 supplements taken orally (with adequate fat)?
     
  16. Yeah you found it, and here is the quote form Peat:
    https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5151
    "...RP: There is a series that actually starts with vitamin K. It's a quinone structure that has been studied from about 1910 on as an anti-cancer, antiviral, energy-promoting, respiration-improving, anti-inflammatory, anti-fibrotic substance. For example, vitamin K is now used to strengthen bones, prevent osteoporosis and prevent calcification of arteries. That's a basic, vital function that does have tremendous range of functions. The emodin in cascara is a three-ring substance and the tetracycline is a four-ring substance, but they are all quinones that are intensified by adding the extra ring. So from vitamin K all the way up to tetracycline, it's a similar biological effect. It sounds too good to be true, to be able to stimulate respiration, be anti-inflammatory, germicidal, anti-cancer and so on."

    viewtopic.php?t=5419
    "...RP: If you put vitamin K and emodin and lapacho in a row and tetracycline (the antibiotic which is an anti-inflammatory), they're essentially the same structure with a different number of rings. But it's like each one is an analog of the other and each one has properties overlapping with those of the other — anti-inflammatory, anti-cancer, anti-stress."
     
  17. It may have higher bioavailability and longer half-life.
     
  18. Would Vitamin K have the same kind of beneficial effects on the intestines if taken topically rather than orally?
     
  19. Noted, Dan. I am just responding to some comments I got through email that I am not including *enough* references in my supplements threads :shock:
    So... I thought this time I'd better address these concerns.
     
  20. Haidut -if I'm using k2 for cleaning up a fatty liver how would the transdermal route work? I thought applying on skin bypassed the liver. Thx.
     
  21. Can one put it directly on teeth or gums? Would it help strengthen the teeth to prevent cavities or heal from damage to roots from dental drills?

    Looking forward to trying it as Thorne is running out.
     
  22. I wrote to Peat about my recent electric sensitivity when I discovered taking aspirin makes it worse. He said that low K can lead to increased sensitivities.

    I've been taking 10 drops a day of Thorne K2 to 450 mg aspirin, but I get the increased sensitivity to 100 mg.
     
  23. It bypasses first pass metabolism, but not second pass. Second pass metabolism is the drug coming back to the liver from the blood circulation. So, the liver will get some no matter what. The good thing about the topical administration is that vitamin K will achieve much higher concentration in the blood and allow the organs that really need it (bones, brain) to get a decent dose and not just the liver.
    Btw, Peat takes all of his fat soluble vitamins topically.
     
  24. You can put it on gums, even though it is not meant for such use. As far as whether it would help with cavities, this is an effectiveness question which I am not legally allowed to answer.
     
  25. lol at the references!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    This is great Haidut thank-you!
     
  26. Well, I think many people don't realize how versatile a substance vitamin K is and how beneficial for health it is. Hopefully, when doctors see this mountain of references they'll change their mind about vitamin K being nothing more than a blood coagulation factor.
     
  27. Great! Especially as only 1 drop is needed. ;)
     
  28. Yep, that's the goal really. Kuinone is cheaper than Thorne in terms of $$/mg of vitamin K and it should also last people much longer than Thorne's supplement. I am not interested in people buying from me every month. I am interested in people improving their health.
     
  29. That's why we love you, Haidut! :))
     
  30. Thank you!
    I am working my way through my bottle of throne's k2 and seeing good results re: cleaning fatty liver. Ill have to give your's a try.
    :thumbleft
     
  31. isn't this fat soluble ?
     
  32. Yes, it is fat soluble but it is also soluble in DMSO.
     
  33. I don't have a copy but I emailed the author long time ago and he responded that the abstract has a typo. It is not 45mg three times a day for a total of 135mg. It is 15mg three times a day. However, he said that for cancer therapy the 45mg three times a day is a viable approach. He mentioned leukemia and prostate cancer as two examples. Very similar to the 100mg - 150mg dose of the vitamin K cousin doxycycline used for cancer treatment in the other studies I have posted.
     
  34. I don't know if this is plausible, but I have noticed smoother skin lately. Actually, It caught my eye the very first morning after using Kuinone (topically, few drops) that skin of back of my hand was sort of glowing. Now when I inspect my skin it seems smoother, not the "big" wrinkles, but the very "micro structure", for example, around biceps/shoulder (area of where skin has seemed sort of weak). And face too seems glowing more (not shining). Now, I have been using vitamin k before, thorne and others, but never have noticed such effect (if at all), so I'm not sure if it just something that has started to happen now, as I have been improving slowly over the years, and I just somehow happened to notice it now. Or maybe my oral route is somehow compromised, I don't know, your other topical supps seems to be rather good too. Or maybe it is the solvent DMSO, as I used one bottle of EstroBan last year, but didn't notice much effect. Certainly starting to think them as a gold standard of supplements.
     
  35. Hey Dan, any chance you could run your little titling trick on the references?
     
  36. Yep, but let me check with the mods. Maybe if they just edit and resubmit Haidut's post it'll be transformed by the new auto-link-titling feature.
     
  37. "Title-ified" references:

    General

    Bone Health

    Inflammation

    Cardiovascular disease (CVD)

    Diabetes

    Kidney Health

    Cancer

    Neurological Health

    Testosterone

    Estrogen
     
  38. I wanted to give some feedback on this product.

    I have been using it for a little over a week, maybe two. I put one drop on my chest/stomach area at night before sleep and let it absorb before going to bed ( definitely can get yellow on your sheets if you aren't careful).

    I have a pill form of k2 that was 5mg. I would take it in the morning and feel tired for a few hours, then I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. So I resigned myself to just taking what was in estroban and no extra K2.

    So when I got this topical K2, I decided to try it at night due to the drowsiness I usually experience on it.

    I have had an overwhelmingly positive experience. I have been sleeping much better, often all the way through the night. I have also seemingly had a huge boost in testosterone, although I don't have labs to show that. Libido has really skyrocketed though.

    Also a lingering cough that would develop if I drank too much milk is pretty much gone, no mucus or phlegm cough up in the morning.

    The one draw back is that it does produce some drowsiness the next day, from what I am assuming is a lowering of stress hormones. A couple times I have woken up at night to hit the bathroom and practically felt dizzy and disoriented.

    I think this is a great product and probably one of the best values simply for how much you get and how little you need. I am going to try an up the dose to two drops here when I can afford to take the next day off. If anyone is having a tough time taking k2, I suggest trying it before bed.
     
  39. Thank you for the excellent feedback! I also experience drowsiness from things that improve metabolism and those include T3, methylene blue, beta-lapachone, emodin, and of course vitamin K2. For that reason, if I take any of these I do it at night.
     
  40. If you addressed this somewhere else I apologize, but what would be your best bet on the conversion of this topical form to oral? The 1.5mg from one drop already feels about as strong as the 5mg pill I was testing.
     
  41. I am about to post some studies on steroids showing if dissolve them in DMSO you get 3 - 10 times better bioavailability. So, at a minimum, I expect 1 drop of Kuinone to be about equal to 4mg - 5mg Thorne or other products, which matches well your guess and experience.
     
  42. Thank you!
     
  43. I guess this might be why I'm having a hard time getting a handle on
    how to dose your NDT in DMSO, haidut.
    If it increases bioavailability 10 fold....
     
  44. How does this compare to mk7 ?

    Also, will DMSO increase the half life ?

    and do you believe in a calcification of the skull bones, that may cause hair loss ?
     
  45. Unless Peat is right, and it needs to be digested by the gut to be useful.
    From Cantstoppeating:
     
  46. Hey Haidut. When I started taking this topical k, I also changed a few other things around, and noticed some thinning and receding hair. I am trying to nail down exactly what is doing it. Any chance the K might be a factor? Reduced calcium in the blood raising prolactin or something? Also been doing more salt, little less protein, more sun, less topical DHEA and preg (haven't felt I've needed it with this K), and a few other things. Can't figure it out.
     
  47. As I have said many times on the forum, I prefer vitamin K2 (MK-4). Most of the research on MK-7 is suspect and sponsored by companies producing it. There is a reason only MK-4 is approved as osteoporosis drug in Japan, Korea, Vietnam, etc.
    As far as the half-life, anything that absorbs through the skin tends to have longer half life due to the lower impact of hepatic metabolism. I encourage people to do blood tests to confirm effects and half-life.
     
  48. All I can say is that not all NDT's are created equal.
     
  49. Hey,
    So I´ve been using Kuinone for a few days now. Most of the days I applied it topically (1-2 Drops) and once orally (one drop).

    I´ve noticed that it reduced my white tongue, there seems to be less built-up on my teeth (which I´ve destroyed 2 years ago due to making a lot of mistake eating this "peat" way and neglecting hygiene) and my gums appear less red which is a good sign. Those are the effects I was hoping for when I bought it.

    I´m still sceptical about the DMSO. As others have mentioned previously it may sting and cause skin rashes (yesterday after applying it to the crook of my arm the skin got really inflamed). But when the drops hit the skin it feels like they interact with the skin pretty quickly. Let´s hope it is safe enough for daily use.

    My issue (that I have mentioned to haidut in an e-mail) is that Kuinone leaves a yellow residue on the skin (and I mean REALLY yellow almost as I´d have dipped it in color). The same also happens with the energin supp. Is there any way to determine how much of those supplements is absorbed? Haidut has mentioned absorption rates of up to 80%, but judging from the intensity of the color they seem to just stick to the skin.
     

  50. I already emailed him about it, here was his response:

    Yes, it is normal to stain as all quinones do the same. CoQ10 also stains as does emodin and the other quinones. The full absorption takes up to a day, but about 80% of the vitamin absorbs within the first hour. Our product Energin also stains but people have confirmed by blood tests that virtually all of it absorbs through the skin.
     
  51. I got a similar Reply from him. Then he referred me to this thread, so I don´t want to bother him anymore. Do you know how long it took for the energin to absorb through the skin? When I took it orally it didn´t do much (although I might have got more cold). Yesterday I put some on my wrists and it made me tired quickly (relaxed in a good way).
     
  52. Thanks for the feedback on Kuinone!
    There is study posted in the Energin thread that says up to 90% of the B vitamins it looked at are absorbed within the first hour and then there is a "long-tail" of absorbing the other 10%-20% over the next 24 hours.
    Methylene blue applied topically has a very similar effect on skin coloring and also on absorption kinetics. Most of it absorbs within the first 2 hours and then the remiander can take up to several days to absorb. Google "methylene blue topical absorption" for more info.
     
  53. I had the same thing happen with the staining. When I cover it with estoban then some stressnon the color fades away quite quickly. Its likely carrying the rest through.
    Give it a try and see if you get the same effect.
     
  54. We also use coconut oil to dilute a little as well.
     
  55. Feedback: This product has made tremendous difference to my dental heath. My gums used to bleed every-time I used to brush and I used to get a lot of plaque too. All these issues are gone now.
    I also notice a subtle rise in libido.
     
  56. Haidut, is there any particular protocol you've come across to cleaning the skin before application of topicals?
    I've been looking but haven't seen anything on it.
    Thanks.
     
  57. What is your dosage and how long have you been using it?

    I'm going to order a few bottles of this as well soon and then try 30mg a day to see if my jaw will grow wider.
     
  58. Just one drop on my wrist, for 15 days.
     
  59. Perfect, this is great to hear! :-D
     
  60. The DMSO supplements that contain ethanol as well such as Pansterone, StressNon, Progestene, Lapodin should not need any skin cleaning since the ethanol is supposed to sterilize the skin before hand. But if you want to clean it anyways, getting some clear glycerin and using papertowel or cotton to scrub the ares should help. Glycerin is really good at pickign up fat residues and pathogens. Ethanol like vodka would work as well but I know some people here frown upon ethanol on the skin so that's why I am suggesting glycerin as an alternative.
     
  61. Haidut, if one was considering opting out of the Vitamin K injection for their newborn, would Kuinone be a safe option and how would you dose if MK-4 is 4 - 5mg with longer half life.

    The literature suggests, 1mg K1 at birth then 25mcg/day from day 8, though this dose failed in babies with unrecognised liver disease.

    Do you think just dosing mother topically would be adequate and do you think the slow release in topically dosed would be comparable to slower release of vitamin K1 (1mg) from muscle tissues observed from intramuscular injections.

    Some mother are using the MK-7 orally for their babies due to longer half-life and smaller doses - 200mcg on birth and 25 mcg daily.

    The research has been with K1 so it is difficult extrapolating what to do with bub. I feel the safer route would be dosing mum and hope to god that there will be adequate levels in the breastmilk to prevent any bleeding problems in bub. Does this sound too risky?

    Would like to know your thoughts on this issue or from any one that has been in this position with the birth of their baby and on how they tackled the situation.
     
  62. Just ordered it.

    From personal experience, I got little benefit from mk7.

    Have you seen any studies about scalp calcification and hair loss ? Or is this an urban myth ?
     
  63. I would not use Kuinone on newborns without doctor's consultation first. DMSO has not been used on babies that much and I don't know how safe it is for them. I think if the mother's vitamin K status is good then the baby probably does not need the injections. The whole injection thing for babies is a very recent protocol and it seems like overkill unless the mother has a very high prothrombin time results on blood test, which can be easily checked. Overall, the shots have been found to be beneficial only in babies with established vitamin K deficiency, which is rare unless the mother is taking high dose vitamin E or aspirin, which is also rare. I don't know if you have heard this but the K1 injections have been tied to leukemia in children. It may be something else in the injection but it's worth keeping that in mind.
    Vitamin K | Linus Pauling Institute | Oregon State University

    So, if possible, I would ask the medical staff to run a vitamin K or coagulation test on the baby when it is born and then decide accordingly. Blood is routinely taken from babies anyways and there should be no issue running a few extra tests on it to decide of the shot is needed.
     
  64. Haidut,
    thanks for the quick reply. I wasn't too worried about ethanol on my skin. I get worse than that at work on a daily basis. It's nice to have options though.
    Thanks for all you do. Much appreciated.
     
  65. This makes sense to me.
    I had not read Peat or any of this when mine were babies, but I didn't like the idea of unnecessarily traumatic introduction to the world with injection of vit K. I opted for whatever oral alternative they offered. , I still don't think I'd go for any extra blood tests unless there was reason to believe there was trouble. If I was doing it now I'd consider going with a drop of thorne K2, maybe transdermal. Does that seem like a reasonable option?
     
  66. Do you think DMSO is OK to use by mother during lactation or do you think it will pass into the breastmilk to baby? Yes, the leukemia link is the reason the mother does not want K1 injection for the baby. Doctor seems to think K levels are OK with mother because liver tests are normal.

    The mother was on antibiotics before pregnancy and then again 5 months into pregnancy.

    Can there be a deficiency and not show up on liver tests. At six months she started experience bleeding like a period which has continued off and on. She is due next wednesday. The bleeding was not the mucuos plug.

    Dr is testing mother for K levels and mother will request baby be tested on birth. If Vitamin K in both mother and baby are OK, do you think it is still wise to give baby 1mg of the Thorne product transdermally or just the mother orally or transdermally during the breastfeeding period?

    Haidut, I appreciate that you are not a doctor, but I think these questions are going to increase as more and more parents opt out of K1 injection.

    Tara,my understanding is that the oral version is still the synthetic K1. I agree that the transdermal route seems the safer alternative along with supplementing the mother and hope the baby is getting adequate during the breastfeeding period. I wouldn't bother with the extra tests if I was confident in the mother's nutritional status. I do have my doubts though and even if the mother is replete, this is not protection for the baby.

    Bottle fed babies receive 45.4mcg/day compared to 0.55 mcg/day for breastfed babies.

    Haidut, do you think giving 1 mg transdermally, once 3 - 4 weeks would be OK to topped up mother's milk? Or do you think it is too great a dose? How does the transdermal route compare with intermuscular in terms of delayed absorption.

    Or do you think that we are over worrying as the issue is not how much is in breastmilk but how well bub is able to absorb the K1. This does not make sense because why would breastfed babies have more problems absorbing and not bottlefed bubs that are getting 100 times more K1? So, it would seem that 1mg at birth was the protective factor.

    Thanks Haidut and Tara much appreciated for your input.

    What happened to the days when women would not tell anyone, just go out in the field and drop their baby. I hate how childbirth has been so medicalised.
     
  67. Yes, I think a drop or two of Thorne is a good idea. But be prepared to fend off attacks from angry doctors if you do it at the hospital when the baby is born. The doctors at the delivery ward tend to be very aggressive about being against using dietary supplements on babies, which is funny since the pediatricians that come and see the child in the first 24-48 hours after birth are perfectly fine with topical vitamin D and K as long as it is a brand that they recognize or they can inspect the label and read the ingredients.
     
  68. The pediatricians I talked to a few years ago were all OK with using Thorne, but wanted to read the bottle first and even went online to research it. The doctors at the delivery ward are the worst IMO, they will push for every procedure and injection, most likely because it is fully covered by the insurance and does not have to be justified.
    So, 1-2 drops of Thorne, even weekly is probably OK. I would talk to the doctor first and if both the mother and baby have no vitamin K deficiency and/or high prothrombin time then it is likely not needed to do even the Thorne drops. But if vitamin K supplementation is desired, I would wait until the mother is out of the delivery ward and when the pediatrician comes to see the baby in the first 24 hours after birth I would approach her/him about rubbing some Thorne on the baby.
     
  69. That may be - I didn't investigate at the time. I'm not in the US, and don't know if it would have been the same as there.
     
  70. I'm trying 30mg/d as well.
    20 drops leaves a malevolent aftertaste via oral admin.
    Thus, 20 drops on my body - next to oxidil.
    You'll recognize me by my colors:
    Orange & Blue Ray Peat Tribe
     
  71. @haidut, the first night after receiving my Kuinone i discovered it had become solid in the bottle over night, my room was relatively cold but not freezing, later the next day it had returned to normal, will this have damaged the vit K molecule??
     
  72. No, the vitamin K is not damaged by low temps but only by bright sunlight. So, if possible, keep it in a dark cabinet when not using. No need to refrigerate.
     
  73. Haidut, I must thank you for making this wonderful supplement. It filled up the bones at the back of my skull if that makes sense. Also, next to my left ear on the sideburn area, there is little bone forming lol. Now I can tolerate vitamin D3 better. I think it's helping me because I abused vitamin E and aspirin in my previous experiments.

    My only concern is the stain. I wear white traditional clothes and the color show up underneath. Is there a critical time when the majority of the vitamin is absorbed so I can wash up the spot? I remember you saying it takes up 36 hours or something for the vitamin to be fully absorbed.
     
  74. Thank you very much! I am glad it is helping. Please also watch out for jaw becoming wider. Many people noticed this effect, so if you see it as well please report here.
    About 80% absorbs within the first hour. So, if you are OK with losing the other 20% then you can wash it off afterwards.
     
  75. I've already noticed it. My face has become more square..Also my skull bone has flattened out more to fit the adjusted jaw. I've always noticed in bald people their skulls look like mountains with a prominent top.
     
  76. That's plenty. Good to know haidut thanks.
     
  77. I've noticed if you blend a drop of estroban with the k the color is nearly gone within 30 min.
    Coconut oil may work too.
     
  78. Do you have any studies connecting k2 with mitochondria function ?
     
  79. What is your dose please.
     
  80. There actually exists a "calcification theory of hair loss", which says that excess calcium in the scalp causes hair loss.
     
  81. I go by the feel, Lucas. In the beginning, I was using 7 to 10 drops throughout the day because I think I was depleted from vitamin K2. Now I take less. I make sure I take vitamin A, D, E (weekly), calcium, magnesium for calcium balance.
     
  82. I've just had a weird and unpleasant experience which I'm putting down to Kuinone. I'd be grateful for everyone's thoughts.

    I've used Estroban (which contains K2) without problems, but thought I'd try higher K2 doses alone, via Kuinone.

    After the application of a single drop of it to my wrist, within around thirty minutes I was experiencing very unpleasant agitation, anxiety and fast palpitations. I thought my number was up! The whole sorry experience lasted six hours and felt like a thyroid mini-storm.

    Could it be the DMSO? Or a direct effect of the K2?

    I'm scared to try it again on its own.

    Has anybody else had a similar experience ?
     
  83. I'll wait on others to chime in, but in the meantime I will say that I have had the same experience with a higher oral dose of vitamin K2 (MK-4) from another vendor. Taking 30mg (or heaven forbid more) in a single dose gave me the most intense insomnia, agitation, and sweating I have ever experienced. I also thought it is thyroid storm but obviously had no way of checking at the time.
     
  84. I've had agitation from taking 30-40mg of K2 in a day. Powerful stuff.
     
  85. More evidence for mk4 from an amazon review of carlson mk4. Perhaps he is a user on this forum ?

    "
    ByDomoon March 18, 2016
    Size: 60Verified Purchase
    I took this form of K2 for about seven months last year, in an attempt to improve the condition of my teeth. I did a bit of research into vitamin K and after reading many reviews, I decided to try this product after using Life Extension Super K for 1-2 months and not seeing much difference. Since the reviews for this and other MK7 versions were so good, I thought everything would be great and kept reordering this without worry.
    Seven months later, my teeth were horribly WORSE than before. I had developed a huge cavity in those few months that wasn't there before, my teeth were turning brown all along the inner edges, and one of my molars had a chunk of tooth just chip off on its own, on the side of the tooth. I hadn't really paid much attention to my teeth since I thought the MK7 would be taking care of them for me (dumb, yes I know). I never experienced that 'smoothness' on my teeth people always mentioned when taking vitamin K.
    I freaked out and started researching in earnest, everything I could, and why/how people's teeth were improving on vitamin K. I read Weston A Price, the entire website. I knew food sources of vitamin K + cod liver oil were not enough to rescue my teeth, especially the one huge cavity that started to be painful (definitely a root canal waiting to happen), and then I came across one article on Marks Daily Apple that discussed one woman's experience in saving her teeth with vitamin K, specifically MK4, NOT MK7.
    After reading that article I immediately ordered Carlson's MK4, which is 5mg per capsule, and started taking three a day, along with the Cure Your Tooth Decay book's emergency protocol of cod liver oil three times a day. The difference in my teeth has been incredible. The huge cavity I have has shrunk, and is now a light brown instead of black, doesn't cause me anymore pain, and all the brown along the inner edges of my teeth have faded away. My teeth are the brightest white they've ever been, and when I run my tongue along them, they are all smooth and clean. Before, when I would floss, the floss would rip and get caught on all kinds of jagged edges between my teeth but not anymore. It's been about 3 months on MK4 but the difference it has made in my teeth is really staggering.
    One thing I noticed on the MK4 is that I didn't need to take any vitamin D supplements at all, the vitamin K seems to 'magnify' or multiply what little you get from the sun so I would get terrible headaches and pains when taking both D + K, which disappeared when I stopped the vitamin D. I still get some vit.D from the cod liver oil, and it seems to be enough. My theory is that too much vitamin D without a proper vitamin K to balance/utilize it can really screw you up, and I firmly believe MK7 is NOT the right vitamin K to be taking.
    I also tried Thorne's MK4 drops, both sublingually and transdermally (a la Ray Peat), and it did not seem to be as effective as taking Carlson's orally, at least for me."
     
  86. Thanks for that clairity. I always wondered what the difference between the two was.
    Clearly it would seem day and night.
    I wonder if MK7 neutralizes MK4.
     
  87. Update: The little girl was born vaginally after the doctors pressured the mother to have cesarian. While the doctors were distracted with another emergency the baby arrived vaginally. Phew!! The results on K levels came back (day before going into labour) that mother's Vitamin K levels were OK and mother was reassured before the birth, the baby's levels should be fine. When questioned about the bleeding during the pregnany, mother was told not to worry as it was due to having sex??? I would not have thought that sex could result in bleeding similar to a period??

    The following should be of interest to parents to be on this forum. Baby was found to be Vitamin D deficient (mother was not) which was tested for and also Vitamin K deficient (again mother was not), even though baby was not tested at the time. The doctors suspected the baby was also Vitamin K deficient based on Vitamin D deficiency and the amount of blood found in the placenta. Mothers to be lose about 30% of their vitamin K during the last trimester - so it is interesting that mother is replete but baby not.

    I have not had a chance to speak with mother but the father spoke to me and was in a state about drawing blood with a needle from his little girl. I reassured him that his little girl will be doing a lot more crying in the next couple of years and the needle experience will be all forgotten once she was back on the breast. It was more important to have the blood tests because if his little girl was indeed Vitamin K deficient, she would not be protected by breastfeeding alone. The fact that bottlefed babies were protected even though they received synthetic Vitamin K was pertinent. I think parents need to be fully informed when making these decisions and be able to weigh up the risks involved well before the delivery date. These parents made the decision not to have the vitamin K injection at the last minute. They were still waiting for Thorne product in the mail when the mother went into labour.

    This incident indicates that mother's sufficiency is no reason to feel complacent that baby will be OK. As vitamin K works in synergy with other fat soluble vitamins, testing for one or two (Vitamin K or D) will not gives us the full picture if we leave out Vitamin A along with other cofactors.
     
  88. This reminds me of something that happened when I was a child. My father was an obstetrician and chief surgeon at a hospital. The most distraught I ever saw him was the day he lost a patient during child birth due to blood loss. I'm not sure what happened to the baby. I just remember him telling my mother over and over again, "There was so much blood. We just couldn't stop it.". It was one of those childhood memories you never forget. That was enough for me to know that blood coagulation isn't something you want to mess with in any operation.
     
  89. could I put a few drops in an empty capsule and swallow it ?

    To avoid staining ?
     
  90. I can't endorse it, but I don't see why not. The capsule will melt pretty quickly though, so it cannot be done as a form of encapsulated Kuinone for long term usage as capsule form.
     
  91. I don't know if it has already been asked but if I remember correctly RP said that vitamin K is extremely light sensitive. Does it imply to store it the dark, or at least away from sunlight ?
     
  92. Hi @haidut - I just ran out of my vitamin K2 supplement (Carlson's brand) and I'm looking to order yours versus Thorne's. Carlson's has some nasty excipients in it. I'm leaning towards Thorne's because the DMSO irritates my skin, but if you can tell me which one provides more bio-availability, I'm all ears. Vitamin D3 oil, I've noticed, helps to cut the DMSO in your thyroid product and stop some skin irritation (FYI) - I'm still sensitive to the odorless one too, but my skin is VERY sensitive, so that's not surprising.

    Anyhow, your K2 supplement is a little cheaper, but do you think it's more bio-available topically? And can I get the same gut benefits with topical use as with internal use? I want to start taking more aspirin from time to time, but I bruise super easily when I take even small doses of aspirin, so I really need good Vitamin K2 to mitigate the bruising, as well as for my teeth. I hate liver (I've tried it every way possible and it still makes me gag), so supplements and eating gouda are where it's at for now.

    Would love your honest thoughts, since I'm guessing you've experimented with both products! Thanks :)
     
  93. Hi Haidut, a poster mentioned above that they mix Estroban with kuinone, and this helps the staining. I haven't tried this yet, so don't know if it's true, or not, or whether it would be the case for me. But it got me thinking. I remember you once saying that applied topically, Estroban wouldn't absorb as efficiently as the oral route (if taken with substantial fat). So you'd need extra drops of Estroban for the topical route, for it to match what you would've absorbed through the oral route.

    So if you mixed the Estroban with one or two drops of kuinone, would this increase the absorption of Estroban significantly, do you think? (Like DMSO does with most stuff?). I was just thinking it would be a good way for me to apply Estroban (the fat solubles) topically, without having to resort to higher fat intake in my diet to ensure their absorption, through the oral route? So if it were higher bioavailability of the Estroban, through mixing it with the kuinone, it might make it more cost effective for me to apply topically as well? Or is that wishful thinking?

    Unless there is a bad reaction from DMSO and the Estroban product, or you think it just wouldn't work? I'm sure this may have been asked before, so apologies if I am treading over the same water.

    Just wondering what your thoughts were.

    Btw, the staining with the kuinone is so bad!! But the product is ace. At the moment, I use it on my feet, but because of that, have yellow feet pretty much constantly (like I have been soaking them in curry each night).
     
  94. Yes, please store in a dark location. No need to refrigerate.
     
  95. Based on blood tests I have seen a 5mg dose of topical Kuinone for a week resulted in the same blood levels of vitamin K as 15mg of oral vitamin K2 from a vendor that sells capsules (not Thorne). Based on that and the studies of DMSO effects on steroids and other substances bioavailability I'd venture an educated guess that topical Kuinone dose of say 1mg is probably equivalent to an oral dose of at least 3mg - 5mg vitamin K2 from another vendor.
     
  96. Since EstroBan is fat-based and Kuinone is DMSO-based I don't know if mixing them would enhance EstroBan absorption but it should not hurt at least. Fat and DMSO do not mix well and the enhanced absorption from DMSO has only beend shown then the active ingredient has been dissolved in it and not another carrier like fat/tocopherols.
    Btw, the current batch of Kuinone does not stain.