Kuinone - Liquid Vitamin K2 (MK-4)

[johnwester130]

Do you have any studies connecting k2 with mitochondria function ?

 

[haidut]

Do you have any studies connecting k2 with mitochondria function ?

Sure, here are two:
http://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/15/3/1531/pdf
Vitamin K2 is a mitochondrial electron carrier that rescues pink1 deficiency. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Lucas]

I've already noticed it. My face has become more square..Also my skull bone has flattened out more to fit the adjusted jaw. I've always noticed in bald people their skulls look like mountains with a prominent top.

What is your dose please.

 

[johnwester130]

There actually exists a "calcification theory of hair loss", which says that excess calcium in the scalp causes hair loss.

 

[milk_lover]

What is your dose please.

I go by the feel, Lucas. In the beginning, I was using 7 to 10 drops throughout the day because I think I was depleted from vitamin K2. Now I take less. I make sure I take vitamin A, D, E (weekly), calcium, magnesium for calcium balance.

 

[Mori68]

I've just had a weird and unpleasant experience which I'm putting down to Kuinone. I'd be grateful for everyone's thoughts.

I've used Estroban (which contains K2) without problems, but thought I'd try higher K2 doses alone, via Kuinone.

After the application of a single drop of it to my wrist, within around thirty minutes I was experiencing very unpleasant agitation, anxiety and fast palpitations. I thought my number was up! The whole sorry experience lasted six hours and felt like a thyroid mini-storm.

Could it be the DMSO? Or a direct effect of the K2?

I'm scared to try it again on its own.

Has anybody else had a similar experience ?

 

[haidut]

I've just had a weird and unpleasant experience which I'm putting down to Kuinone. I'd be grateful for everyone's thoughts.

I've used Estroban (which contains K2) without problems, but thought I'd try higher K2 doses alone, via Kuinone.

After the application of a single drop of it to my wrist, within around thirty minutes I was experiencing very unpleasant agitation, anxiety and fast palpitations. I thought my number was up! The whole sorry experience lasted six hours and felt like a thyroid mini-storm.

Could it be the DMSO? Or a direct effect of the K2?

I'm scared to try it again on its own.

Has anybody else had a similar experience ?

I'll wait on others to chime in, but in the meantime I will say that I have had the same experience with a higher oral dose of vitamin K2 (MK-4) from another vendor. Taking 30mg (or heaven forbid more) in a single dose gave me the most intense insomnia, agitation, and sweating I have ever experienced. I also thought it is thyroid storm but obviously had no way of checking at the time.

 

[acrylic]

I'll wait on others to chime in, but in the meantime I will say that I have had the same experience with a higher oral dose of vitamin K2 (MK-4) from another vendor. Taking 30mg (or heaven forbid more) in a single dose gave me the most intense insomnia, agitation, and sweating I have ever experienced. I also thought it is thyroid storm but obviously had no way of checking at the time.

I've had agitation from taking 30-40mg of K2 in a day. Powerful stuff.

 

[johnwester130]

More evidence for mk4 from an amazon review of carlson mk4. Perhaps he is a user on this forum ?

"
ByDomoon March 18, 2016
Size: 60Verified Purchase
I took this form of K2 for about seven months last year, in an attempt to improve the condition of my teeth. I did a bit of research into vitamin K and after reading many reviews, I decided to try this product after using Life Extension Super K for 1-2 months and not seeing much difference. Since the reviews for this and other MK7 versions were so good, I thought everything would be great and kept reordering this without worry.
Seven months later, my teeth were horribly WORSE than before. I had developed a huge cavity in those few months that wasn't there before, my teeth were turning brown all along the inner edges, and one of my molars had a chunk of tooth just chip off on its own, on the side of the tooth. I hadn't really paid much attention to my teeth since I thought the MK7 would be taking care of them for me (dumb, yes I know). I never experienced that 'smoothness' on my teeth people always mentioned when taking vitamin K.
I freaked out and started researching in earnest, everything I could, and why/how people's teeth were improving on vitamin K. I read Weston A Price, the entire website. I knew food sources of vitamin K + cod liver oil were not enough to rescue my teeth, especially the one huge cavity that started to be painful (definitely a root canal waiting to happen), and then I came across one article on Marks Daily Apple that discussed one woman's experience in saving her teeth with vitamin K, specifically MK4, NOT MK7.
After reading that article I immediately ordered Carlson's MK4, which is 5mg per capsule, and started taking three a day, along with the Cure Your Tooth Decay book's emergency protocol of cod liver oil three times a day. The difference in my teeth has been incredible. The huge cavity I have has shrunk, and is now a light brown instead of black, doesn't cause me anymore pain, and all the brown along the inner edges of my teeth have faded away. My teeth are the brightest white they've ever been, and when I run my tongue along them, they are all smooth and clean. Before, when I would floss, the floss would rip and get caught on all kinds of jagged edges between my teeth but not anymore. It's been about 3 months on MK4 but the difference it has made in my teeth is really staggering.
One thing I noticed on the MK4 is that I didn't need to take any vitamin D supplements at all, the vitamin K seems to 'magnify' or multiply what little you get from the sun so I would get terrible headaches and pains when taking both D + K, which disappeared when I stopped the vitamin D. I still get some vit.D from the cod liver oil, and it seems to be enough. My theory is that too much vitamin D without a proper vitamin K to balance/utilize it can really screw you up, and I firmly believe MK7 is NOT the right vitamin K to be taking.
I also tried Thorne's MK4 drops, both sublingually and transdermally (a la Ray Peat), and it did not seem to be as effective as taking Carlson's orally, at least for me."

 

[whit]

More evidence for mk4 from an amazon review of carlson mk4. Perhaps he is a user on this forum ?

"
ByDomoon March 18, 2016
Size: 60Verified Purchase
I took this form of K2 for about seven months last year, in an attempt to improve the condition of my teeth. I did a bit of research into vitamin K and after reading many reviews, I decided to try this product after using Life Extension Super K for 1-2 months and not seeing much difference. Since the reviews for this and other MK7 versions were so good, I thought everything would be great and kept reordering this without worry.
Seven months later, my teeth were horribly WORSE than before. I had developed a huge cavity in those few months that wasn't there before, my teeth were turning brown all along the inner edges, and one of my molars had a chunk of tooth just chip off on its own, on the side of the tooth. I hadn't really paid much attention to my teeth since I thought the MK7 would be taking care of them for me (dumb, yes I know). I never experienced that 'smoothness' on my teeth people always mentioned when taking vitamin K.
I freaked out and started researching in earnest, everything I could, and why/how people's teeth were improving on vitamin K. I read Weston A Price, the entire website. I knew food sources of vitamin K + cod liver oil were not enough to rescue my teeth, especially the one huge cavity that started to be painful (definitely a root canal waiting to happen), and then I came across one article on Marks Daily Apple that discussed one woman's experience in saving her teeth with vitamin K, specifically MK4, NOT MK7.
After reading that article I immediately ordered Carlson's MK4, which is 5mg per capsule, and started taking three a day, along with the Cure Your Tooth Decay book's emergency protocol of cod liver oil three times a day. The difference in my teeth has been incredible. The huge cavity I have has shrunk, and is now a light brown instead of black, doesn't cause me anymore pain, and all the brown along the inner edges of my teeth have faded away. My teeth are the brightest white they've ever been, and when I run my tongue along them, they are all smooth and clean. Before, when I would floss, the floss would rip and get caught on all kinds of jagged edges between my teeth but not anymore. It's been about 3 months on MK4 but the difference it has made in my teeth is really staggering.
One thing I noticed on the MK4 is that I didn't need to take any vitamin D supplements at all, the vitamin K seems to 'magnify' or multiply what little you get from the sun so I would get terrible headaches and pains when taking both D + K, which disappeared when I stopped the vitamin D. I still get some vit.D from the cod liver oil, and it seems to be enough. My theory is that too much vitamin D without a proper vitamin K to balance/utilize it can really screw you up, and I firmly believe MK7 is NOT the right vitamin K to be taking.
I also tried Thorne's MK4 drops, both sublingually and transdermally (a la Ray Peat), and it did not seem to be as effective as taking Carlson's orally, at least for me."

Thanks for that clairity. I always wondered what the difference between the two was.
Clearly it would seem day and night.
I wonder if MK7 neutralizes MK4.

 

[Ella]

Overall, the shots have been found to be beneficial only in babies with established vitamin K deficiency, which is rare unless the mother is taking high dose vitamin E or aspirin, which is also rare.

Update: The little girl was born vaginally after the doctors pressured the mother to have cesarian. While the doctors were distracted with another emergency the baby arrived vaginally. Phew!! The results on K levels came back (day before going into labour) that mother's Vitamin K levels were OK and mother was reassured before the birth, the baby's levels should be fine. When questioned about the bleeding during the pregnany, mother was told not to worry as it was due to having sex??? I would not have thought that sex could result in bleeding similar to a period??

The following should be of interest to parents to be on this forum. Baby was found to be Vitamin D deficient (mother was not) which was tested for and also Vitamin K deficient (again mother was not), even though baby was not tested at the time. The doctors suspected the baby was also Vitamin K deficient based on Vitamin D deficiency and the amount of blood found in the placenta. Mothers to be lose about 30% of their vitamin K during the last trimester - so it is interesting that mother is replete but baby not.

I have not had a chance to speak with mother but the father spoke to me and was in a state about drawing blood with a needle from his little girl. I reassured him that his little girl will be doing a lot more crying in the next couple of years and the needle experience will be all forgotten once she was back on the breast. It was more important to have the blood tests because if his little girl was indeed Vitamin K deficient, she would not be protected by breastfeeding alone. The fact that bottlefed babies were protected even though they received synthetic Vitamin K was pertinent. I think parents need to be fully informed when making these decisions and be able to weigh up the risks involved well before the delivery date. These parents made the decision not to have the vitamin K injection at the last minute. They were still waiting for Thorne product in the mail when the mother went into labour.

This incident indicates that mother's sufficiency is no reason to feel complacent that baby will be OK. As vitamin K works in synergy with other fat soluble vitamins, testing for one or two (Vitamin K or D) will not gives us the full picture if we leave out Vitamin A along with other cofactors.

 

[NathanK]

Update: The little girl was born vaginally after the doctors pressured the mother to have cesarian. While the doctors were distracted with another emergency the baby arrived vaginally. Phew!! The results on K levels came back (day before going into labour) that mother's Vitamin K levels were OK and mother was reassured before the birth, the baby's levels should be fine. When questioned about the bleeding during the pregnany, mother was told not to worry as it was due to having sex??? I would not have thought that sex could result in bleeding similar to a period??

This reminds me of something that happened when I was a child. My father was an obstetrician and chief surgeon at a hospital. The most distraught I ever saw him was the day he lost a patient during child birth due to blood loss. I'm not sure what happened to the baby. I just remember him telling my mother over and over again, "There was so much blood. We just couldn't stop it.". It was one of those childhood memories you never forget. That was enough for me to know that blood coagulation isn't something you want to mess with in any operation.

 

[johnwester130]

could I put a few drops in an empty capsule and swallow it ?

To avoid staining ?

 

[haidut]

could I put a few drops in an empty capsule and swallow it ?

To avoid staining ?

I can't endorse it, but I don't see why not. The capsule will melt pretty quickly though, so it cannot be done as a form of encapsulated Kuinone for long term usage as capsule form.

 

[Peatit]

I don't know if it has already been asked but if I remember correctly RP said that vitamin K is extremely light sensitive. Does it imply to store it the dark, or at least away from sunlight ?

 

[lindsay]

Hi @haidut - I just ran out of my vitamin K2 supplement (Carlson's brand) and I'm looking to order yours versus Thorne's. Carlson's has some nasty excipients in it. I'm leaning towards Thorne's because the DMSO irritates my skin, but if you can tell me which one provides more bio-availability, I'm all ears. Vitamin D3 oil, I've noticed, helps to cut the DMSO in your thyroid product and stop some skin irritation (FYI) - I'm still sensitive to the odorless one too, but my skin is VERY sensitive, so that's not surprising.

Anyhow, your K2 supplement is a little cheaper, but do you think it's more bio-available topically? And can I get the same gut benefits with topical use as with internal use? I want to start taking more aspirin from time to time, but I bruise super easily when I take even small doses of aspirin, so I really need good Vitamin K2 to mitigate the bruising, as well as for my teeth. I hate liver (I've tried it every way possible and it still makes me gag), so supplements and eating gouda are where it's at for now.

Would love your honest thoughts, since I'm guessing you've experimented with both products! Thanks :)

 

[BobbyDukes]

Hi Haidut, a poster mentioned above that they mix Estroban with kuinone, and this helps the staining. I haven't tried this yet, so don't know if it's true, or not, or whether it would be the case for me. But it got me thinking. I remember you once saying that applied topically, Estroban wouldn't absorb as efficiently as the oral route (if taken with substantial fat). So you'd need extra drops of Estroban for the topical route, for it to match what you would've absorbed through the oral route.

So if you mixed the Estroban with one or two drops of kuinone, would this increase the absorption of Estroban significantly, do you think? (Like DMSO does with most stuff?). I was just thinking it would be a good way for me to apply Estroban (the fat solubles) topically, without having to resort to higher fat intake in my diet to ensure their absorption, through the oral route? So if it were higher bioavailability of the Estroban, through mixing it with the kuinone, it might make it more cost effective for me to apply topically as well? Or is that wishful thinking?

Unless there is a bad reaction from DMSO and the Estroban product, or you think it just wouldn't work? I'm sure this may have been asked before, so apologies if I am treading over the same water.

Just wondering what your thoughts were.

Btw, the staining with the kuinone is so bad!! But the product is ace. At the moment, I use it on my feet, but because of that, have yellow feet pretty much constantly (like I have been soaking them in curry each night).

 

[haidut]

I don't know if it has already been asked but if I remember correctly RP said that vitamin K is extremely light sensitive. Does it imply to store it the dark, or at least away from sunlight ?

Yes, please store in a dark location. No need to refrigerate.

 

[haidut]

Hi @haidut - I just ran out of my vitamin K2 supplement (Carlson's brand) and I'm looking to order yours versus Thorne's. Carlson's has some nasty excipients in it. I'm leaning towards Thorne's because the DMSO irritates my skin, but if you can tell me which one provides more bio-availability, I'm all ears. Vitamin D3 oil, I've noticed, helps to cut the DMSO in your thyroid product and stop some skin irritation (FYI) - I'm still sensitive to the odorless one too, but my skin is VERY sensitive, so that's not surprising.

Anyhow, your K2 supplement is a little cheaper, but do you think it's more bio-available topically? And can I get the same gut benefits with topical use as with internal use? I want to start taking more aspirin from time to time, but I bruise super easily when I take even small doses of aspirin, so I really need good Vitamin K2 to mitigate the bruising, as well as for my teeth. I hate liver (I've tried it every way possible and it still makes me gag), so supplements and eating gouda are where it's at for now.

Would love your honest thoughts, since I'm guessing you've experimented with both products! Thanks :)

Based on blood tests I have seen a 5mg dose of topical Kuinone for a week resulted in the same blood levels of vitamin K as 15mg of oral vitamin K2 from a vendor that sells capsules (not Thorne). Based on that and the studies of DMSO effects on steroids and other substances bioavailability I'd venture an educated guess that topical Kuinone dose of say 1mg is probably equivalent to an oral dose of at least 3mg - 5mg vitamin K2 from another vendor.

 

[haidut]

Hi Haidut, a poster mentioned above that they mix Estroban with kuinone, and this helps the staining. I haven't tried this yet, so don't know if it's true, or not, or whether it would be the case for me. But it got me thinking. I remember you once saying that applied topically, Estroban wouldn't absorb as efficiently as the oral route (if taken with substantial fat). So you'd need extra drops of Estroban for the topical route, for it to match what you would've absorbed through the oral route.

So if you mixed the Estroban with one or two drops of kuinone, would this increase the absorption of Estroban significantly, do you think? (Like DMSO does with most stuff?). I was just thinking it would be a good way for me to apply Estroban (the fat solubles) topically, without having to resort to higher fat intake in my diet to ensure their absorption, through the oral route? So if it were higher bioavailability of the Estroban, through mixing it with the kuinone, it might make it more cost effective for me to apply topically as well? Or is that wishful thinking?

Unless there is a bad reaction from DMSO and the Estroban product, or you think it just wouldn't work? I'm sure this may have been asked before, so apologies if I am treading over the same water.

Just wondering what your thoughts were.

Btw, the staining with the kuinone is so bad!! But the product is ace. At the moment, I use it on my feet, but because of that, have yellow feet pretty much constantly (like I have been soaking them in curry each night).

Since EstroBan is fat-based and Kuinone is DMSO-based I don't know if mixing them would enhance EstroBan absorption but it should not hurt at least. Fat and DMSO do not mix well and the enhanced absorption from DMSO has only beend shown then the active ingredient has been dissolved in it and not another carrier like fat/tocopherols.
Btw, the current batch of Kuinone does not stain.