KMUD: 9-17-16 Antioxidant Theory And The Continued War On Cancer

[Dan W]

I liked this show, it was educational and also touched on some sort of "Ray Peat Forum" where people try crazy things with CO2.

For Gl;itch.e and anyone else with forum troubles: direct MP3 link and podcast.

Donate to support KMUD here.

 

[Dan W]

I found this part interesting given my habit of mixing vitamin K & E together for transdermal application:

Sarah: So it's almost like if you take vitamin K, you're helping protect the CoQ10 in your system?
Ray: Yeah, I think that vitamin E and K both have that function of working at the CoQ10 site.
Sarah: So do you think it's necessary for someone to supplement with CoQ10 if they're using vitamin K?
Ray: I wouldn't mix them even in your stomach. I think it's good to take them at a different time because I've seen a reaction which, at least in the presence of light, I think it might cause other reactions to happen when the vitamin E reacts with the vitamin K.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Thanks a million yet again Dan!

 

[raypeatclips]

I found this part interesting given my habit of mixing vitamin K & E together for transdermal application:

Anybody any ideas if this would be relevant to Estroban? @haidut

 

[haidut]

Anybody any ideas if this would be relevant to Estroban? @haidut

I think he was referring to mixing CoQ10 and vitamin K together. The vitamin E and K mix issue was more of a potential concern while the CoQ10 + E was established. At least that's how I read it. Vitamin E and K are thought to share the same transport mechanism and it is saturable, so taking one can in high doses over time can in theory deplete the other. I have seen studies showing vitamin E can deplete vitamin K, but I have not seen anything on K depleting E.
In the doses used in EstroBan, both E and K get absorbed and accumulate. I posted a test from DirectLabs, which Dan found for cheaper from other labs, that shows vitamin K activity and some people have seen their increase several fold after using EstroBan. So we know the vitamin K is there and getting absorbed without interference with E. Btw, that is the reason I don't have more K in EstroBan - i.e. the presence of E and the potential for both of them to interfere with each other's absorption and effects.

 

[Blossom]

Did anyone catch the part about the caller who mentioned her eye color becoming lighter by decreasing pufa?

I think the eye drop medicine Peat was talking about that is used for glaucoma and can cause darkening the iris due to boosting prostaglandins is the same as this one used for eye lash growth.

LATISSE® (bimatoprost ophthalmic solution) 0.03%

Darkening of the iris is listed as a side effect. What I'm wondering is if it has systemic damaging effects?

 

[Dan W]

I think he was referring to mixing CoQ10 and vitamin K together.

Yeah, it was a little unclear which combination he meant, given the question was about CoQ10 and K.

Out of curiosity I tried exposing vitamin E & K to my red-light incandescent plus UVB lights for an hour. I don't know what this suggests, but the vitamin E+K combination looks darker than either of them by themselves:

Excuse the sloppy layout of the samples, I think the bottom of the bowl is sloped. And it's not an ideal test because I was too lazy to get their light exposure completely identical.

There wasn't any noticeable consistency change.

 

[Amazoniac]

Yeah, it was a little unclear which combination he meant, given the question was about CoQ10 and K.

Out of curiosity I tried exposing vitamin E & K to my red-light incandescent plus UVB lights for an hour. I don't know what this suggests, but the vitamin E+K combination looks darker than either of them by themselves:

Excuse the sloppy layout of the samples, I think the bottom of the bowl is sloped. And it's not an ideal test because I was too lazy to get their light exposure completely identical.

There wasn't any noticeable consistency change.

Dan, how did they look before?

 

[Regina]

I think he was referring to mixing CoQ10 and vitamin K together. The vitamin E and K mix issue was more of a potential concern while the CoQ10 + E was established. At least that's how I read it. Vitamin E and K are thought to share the same transport mechanism and it is saturable, so taking one can in high doses over time can in theory deplete the other. I have seen studies showing vitamin E can deplete vitamin K, but I have not seen anything on K depleting E.
In the doses used in EstroBan, both E and K get absorbed and accumulate. I posted a test from DirectLabs, which Dan found for cheaper from other labs, that shows vitamin K activity and some people have seen their increase several fold after using EstroBan. So we know the vitamin K is there and getting absorbed without interference with E. Btw, that is the reason I don't have more K in EstroBan - i.e. the presence of E and the potential for both of them to interfere with each other's absorption and effects.

I hope I am not getting off track by high dosing my rat with Kuinone, normal dose Estroban and planned on adding TocoVit to combat both fibrosis/joint pain and a bit of carotenemia.

 

[Dan W]

Dan, how did they look before?

Good call, I didn't think to take a "before" picture. But here's a fresh setup (after allowing a couple minutes for the E&K to mix, in a room with normal lighting). To the naked eye the combination looks about as dark as the E alone, but for some reason the photo makes it look darker:

I'll leave them both out to see if they continue to darken, though I won't be able to continue the high light exposure on the first one.

 

[tobieagle]

This unfriendly, annoying woman.... every time.

She just wastes their time.

Why don't they just block her number?

 

[raypeatclips]

@haidut @Dan Wich

In the talk he seems to begin talking about CoQ10 but ends it by saying vitamin E, seems to change mid sentence. I decided to email him to clarify what he meant.

Q:
I was just hoping for some clarification on something you said on the last KMUD talk you did. It was just after the lady rang in asking about her co enzyme q10 supplements and fish oil. It sounded like you were saying co enzyme q10 and vitamin K should be taken separately but then at the end it seemed like you said vitamin K and vitamin E. Was it the E and K you were referring to? If so, does this interaction still happen at lower doses for example less than 100 IU E and 2mg K?

Thank you.

I think vitamin E shouldn’t be taken at the same time as either coenzyme Q10 or vitamin K. With food, those small doses wouldn’t cause a problem.

 

[raypeatclips]

If people want some reference for the exact clip that we are discussing, here is the snippet.

 

[bluewren]

@haidut @Dan Wich

In the talk he seems to begin talking about CoQ10 but ends it by saying vitamin E, seems to change mid sentence. I decided to email him to clarify what he meant.

Q:
I was just hoping for some clarification on something you said on the last KMUD talk you did. It was just after the lady rang in asking about her co enzyme q10 supplements and fish oil. It sounded like you were saying co enzyme q10 and vitamin K should be taken separately but then at the end it seemed like you said vitamin K and vitamin E. Was it the E and K you were referring to? If so, does this interaction still happen at lower doses for example less than 100 IU E and 2mg K?

Thank you.

Thanks for this @raypeatclips

 

[Lightbringer]

Did anyone catch the part about the caller who mentioned her eye color becoming lighter by decreasing pufa?

I think the eye drop medicine Peat was talking about that is used for glaucoma and can cause darkening the iris due to boosting prostaglandins is the same as this one used for eye lash growth.

LATISSE® (bimatoprost ophthalmic solution) 0.03%

Darkening of the iris is listed as a side effect. What I'm wondering is if it has systemic damaging effects?

The caller was Andrew's client who was asking about why her eyes were becoming lighter after changing her diet and using thyroid. She mentioned reading on some raw vegan forums that lighter eye color indicated good health.
Peat wasn't sure about this but gave the example of prostaglandin eye drops for glaucoma that causes a darkening of the iris - this he felt was toxic because of the prostaglandins being synthesized from PUFA. Perhaps he was referring to this: Prostaglandin Analogs for Glaucoma

 

[raypeatclips]

The caller was Andrew's client who was asking about why her eyes were becoming lighter after changing her diet and using thyroid. She mentioned reading on some raw vegan forums that lighter eye color indicated good health.
Peat wasn't sure about this but gave the example of prostaglandin eye drops for glaucoma that causes a darkening of the iris - this he felt was toxic because of the prostaglandins being synthesized from PUFA. Perhaps he was referring to this: Prostaglandin Analogs for Glaucoma

If you are wanting a reference for what he replied, this could be of help.

 

[Blossom]

Yes, that's it. Thanks @Lightbringer and @raypeatclips. The cosmetic treatment being marketed for eyelash growth is a prostaglandin analogue.

 

[Lightbringer]

If you are wanting a reference for what he replied, this could be of help.

Awesome, Just heard the section on Co2 again as well. Pouring Co2 in a bathtub - mind blown! Sounds much easier than stepping into a bag without spilling ! Has anyone tried it?

 

[haidut]

@haidut @Dan Wich

In the talk he seems to begin talking about CoQ10 but ends it by saying vitamin E, seems to change mid sentence. I decided to email him to clarify what he meant.

Q:
I was just hoping for some clarification on something you said on the last KMUD talk you did. It was just after the lady rang in asking about her co enzyme q10 supplements and fish oil. It sounded like you were saying co enzyme q10 and vitamin K should be taken separately but then at the end it seemed like you said vitamin K and vitamin E. Was it the E and K you were referring to? If so, does this interaction still happen at lower doses for example less than 100 IU E and 2mg K?

Thank you.

Thanks for this. Another reason to keep the doses in EstroBan as they are and not higher as some people keep asking for.

 

[Dan W]

Thanks for this. Another reason to keep the doses in EstroBan as they are and not higher as some people keep asking for.

It's another case of the answer having some ambiguity, but I interpreted him as suggesting that taking those small amounts with food would help prevent them from mixing too much. So perhaps "pre-mixed" K&E might still react somehow, regardless of their amounts?

Here's my two combination experiments around 24 hours later. The left bowl is the one exposed to a lot of light. The drops are (left-to-right) K, K+E, E in each bowl. In both cases the combination seems darker than I would've expected:

Perhaps I'm overly paranoid, it's just that I've spent a long time combining the two without realizing there might be a downside to them mixing.