Kidney Stones

Jake

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Anyone have experience with kidney stones?

I am a 31 year old male, no prior health issues.
I ended up in the ER last night, extremely painful. I have been eating a Peat style diet for close to a year now, I feel like it pretty solid as I log my food occasionally. Only supplements are a daily aspirin and Vitamin E if I eat at a restaurant which is pretty rare.

Possible culprits- (chocolate?- 2 oz daily, coffee?- I drink 3 or 4 cups a day, but none prior to Peat, too much salt? - I salt all my food but never measured probably a tablespoon or so a day)

Also the hospital performed a CT scan on me last night as I was in no position to question my treatment. Recommendations on how to minimize its damage?

Thanks for any insight.
 

charlie

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Well, I passed a stone about a month ago. First stone ever.

You bag breathing much?

The theory I am running is mine was from too much bag breathing causing too much Co2 in the blood which in turn pulls out oxalates from the bone I believe. And/or too much vitamin K. Or, like you said, maybe too much salt.
 

jyb

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On the contrary, wouldn't K (and other things) prevent calcium being deposited as kidney stones and elsewhere?
 

charlie

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One would think. I passed a struvite stone which after just checking again is not from calcium oxalates.

I passed my stone after doing a ton of bag breathing. I have since stopped all bag breathing just in case that was the culprit.
 

Jake

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Thanks Charlie.

I have been bag breathing more often lately. Probably 5 days a week, 2 or 3 times a day. I'll give it a rest for now.
 

charlie

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Jake, I am not saying that's what happened. I am just highly suspicious that is what likely happened to me. I was doing a ton of bag breathing. However, I think, after being on Ray Peat for a while that we should be plenty good on Co2 because our bodies will shift over to a better Co2 production environment, or enrichment, whatever you want to call it. So then, going and adding in bag breathing, and some of us add in baking soda, plus, drinking mexican coke, could push us over the edge. Again, just a theory.

Did you pass your stone?
 

Jake

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Yea, I understand you don't know for sure. It was so painful I'm going to try whatever I can think of too not develop another one. Also maybe this discussion can generate some additional potential causes so others don't end up with in the same scenario.

I honestly don't know for sure if I passed it. I never saw it, but I must have cause my pain is like 90% better. It still takes a few minutes for the pee stream to start. Will it be obvious when it passes? The doctor sent me home and said it was small enough to pass. I would have figured she would have wanted the stone to analyze it.

Another thing was there was no warning signs leading up to it, just immediate pain.

Sorry for the TMI.
 

charlie

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Jake said:
Yea, I understand you don't know for sure. It was so painful I'm going to try whatever I can think of too not develop another one. Also maybe this discussion can generate some additional potential causes so others don't end up with in the same scenario.

I honestly don't know for sure if I passed it. I never saw it, but I must have cause my pain is like 90% better. It still takes a few minutes for the pee stream to start. Will it be obvious when it passes? The doctor sent me home and said it was small enough to pass. I would have figured she would have wanted the stone to analyze it.

Another thing was there was no warning signs leading up to it, just immediate pain.

Sorry for the TMI.

I am grateful you brought this up, thank you. Been wanting to do it myself but just didnt get around to it.

When mine passed, I started peeing, then, the stream stopped for a second, then, plop, I heard it hit the water after the stream started back up.

Sorry to hear about your pain. :(
 

Jake

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Too little magnesium is possible in my case. I take in lots of sodium and lots of calcium as well - 12 to 14 cups of milk a day. When I've logged, fitday has shown me at ~ 100% RDA for magnesium. I occasionally take epsom salt foot baths as well, but I wonder if this is not enough to balance out the other minerals.

I'll check into B6, haven't though much about it, as my food log shows I'm typically at ~ 150% RDA.
 

chris

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Has anyone asked Ray about kidney stones? Is it the CO2 causing them?
 

Mittir

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Charlie said:
One would think. I passed a struvite stone which after just checking again is not from calcium oxalates.

I passed my stone after doing a ton of bag breathing. I have since stopped all bag breathing just in case that was the culprit.

I have been eating peat style for last 3 years but i only added oj and milk few months ago. Recently i am feeling mild pain around kidney area. Never had any kind of stone or kidney problems. So i checked for oxalates. A medium orange( edible portion) has 24 mg of oxalate. In one quart of OJ there are about 10 plus orange. Tropicana uses 16 oranges to make 59 oz of OJ. I think they use large orange. That is a huge amount of oxalates. Concord grape has 25 mg per 100 grams . OJ and concord grape juice were my main source of carb. Green grape is much lower in oxalate. Coffee also has good amount of oxalate.
I do add some calcium hydroxide to neutralize the acid in juices. In a KMUD interview RP mentioned calcium can bind oxalic acid and neutralize. Citrate is used to prevent kidney stone formation. OJ is high in citric acid. But vitamin C and salt are said to increase stone formation. OJ has an interesting mix of oxalate, vitamin C and antidote citric acid. Citric acid increases urination and this supposed to prevent stone formation. Carrot also has good amount of oxalate. I did lowered my PTH by 50% with increased calcium intake from milk, cheese and calcium hydroxide added in juices.I am thinking whether this quick change in PTH can be a factor in kidney stone. What kind of diet you had prior to your kidney problem?
 

charlie

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I was on the Peat diet for a good 9 months before I had the kidney stone. But, if I remember correctly that is around the time that I went heavy on the OJ.

At the time I chalked it off to having too much Co2 from bag breathing, or, I might have went a little too heavy on the K2 which moves oxalates out of the body.
 

Rem

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Some people seem to pass stones with baking soda... something like 1g four times a day
 

Strongbad

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Sometimes I wonder if going Peaty diet causes more problems than solutions :( I never thought having OJ and milk will cause kidney stones! Like sometimes now I feel a slight pain in my lower right abdomen. I don't know what it is but never had this issue when I was doing low carb diet. Then I found out that caffeine induces more jittery, adrenaline and prolactin on me since discovering that I'm hypo today. Then baking soda made me feel bloated so I had to reduce the intake.

So much contradicting info :? Things that are good in Peatians diet don't necessarily work well for me. Maybe being a hypo is an exception in this diet. Frustrated
 

BingDing

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Don't despair, Strongbad, it seems pretty common to take two steps forward and one step back. There are so many things to adjust and then everything else needs to readjust, it's a long journey and there are no shortcuts.

Speaking for myself, I didn't even know how sick I was until I started getting healthy. I'm generally doing well but tonight I'm running 100.5 fever and my whole body feels like a mild toothache. Yeesh.
 

SaltGirl

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I am wondering if this couldn't also be a problem of too little fluids compared to sugar and such? I remember having occasional pain in that region when I was heavy on the sugar and not taking in enough fluids. I sometimes fear that people can easily go into the other end of the spectrum after reading Ray's article on water. I know that for myself I do much better drinking pure water occasionally over the day instead of doing just milk and OJ.

I also know that beer has been considered good against kidney stones, and the usual theory is the hydration part, but I wonder if the silica or anything else plays a part in it.
 

Blossom

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It took me 2-3 months after coming off paleo to start feeling better. I actually felt worse initially but I persevered because I felt I was doing the right thing for my health. At 3-4 months in I started to make a dramatic turnaround but those first couple of months were challenging. Based on your introduction you've been making changes for about one month so perhaps you are experiencing a similar situation Strongbad?
 
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