Kick **** Experience With White Button Mushrooms

[Birdie]

Ray said to cook 2 hours, and the pressure cooker is much quicker cooking. The studies I've read indicate that heat isn't a problem so that's why in the interests of efficiency and speed I use the pressure cooker.

Other mushrooms have other constituents. White button mushrooms apparently are stars in this area of aromatase inhibition.

Oh gosh I thought it was one hour. I must have remembered your time for the pressure cooker. Or something. Well well well.

 

[Makrosky]

My note says 1 hour. Yikes. I thought it was chop them up, sauté in butter, add liquid, cover and simmer an hour. Wrong?

Well you guys are making me doubt now. I think this was discussed during the thread. Or maybe 1 hr if you sauté them and 2-3 if you just boil them.

 

[Mauritio]

Calling on community members to update any recent experiences with WBM

@ecstatichamster @Hans @Mauritio @Beastmode @Frankdee20 @Wagner83 @Ideonaut @GreekDemiGod @David90 @equipoise @Inaut @Peatogenic and anyone else who experimented with it.

I eat mushrooms occasionally in mixed meals but never paid close attention to their effects as a functional food.

My 3 days experiment so far:

Preparation
- 2 kg white button mushrooms wiped and cleaned with the peels on and including the stems
- finely sliced and cooked for almost 4 hours, without the lid; halfway through the process I added extra boiling water to make up for the evaporated amount; in the last hour of cooking I added a bit of salt and two brown onions with the dry outer scales and roots on for extra flavor and a bit of quercetin;
- the final product had a moderate amount of liquid, a properly balanced umami taste and the mushroom slices were soft

I consumed (the cooked equivalent of) 500 g mushrooms + a proportional amount of liquid per day (250 g with breakfast and 250 g with dinner) and the effects were very profound.

- within 2 hours from the first dose, I experienced a sense of calmness and wellbeing with a sudden decrease in water retention; it was very noticeable because I clenched my fists as tight as I could without feeling any resistance, my fingers felt thinner, my face felt relaxed and slimmer, and any stiffness in my muscles was gone; I suspect this was also from lowered cortisol
- the only downside was that I felt a little breathless but this only happened first time; I think the WBM might have lowered my blood sugar too much (I get a similar feeling when taking a higher amount of Nigella sativa oil for example, which also reduces blood glucose levels)
- the benefits are continuous and stable, most noticeably the decrease in inflammation and water retention which translates into improved executive function and physical coordination, as well as increased endurance; basic physical activities such as walking are effortless
- plus everything else that others reported in this thread; somewhat increased stomach secretions but probably because I eat them as a side dish and not cooked in a mixed meal; morning wood that starts and lasts for the 2nd half of the night

I suspect this is a high dose to have every day and might have to cut it down to every other day or lower daily amounts.

Obviously, the AI inhibition is not the only mechanism, but on the topic of AI here is a post from BodyBuilding forum, with lab tests:

View attachment 28177

WBM is really interesting. There are ongoing trials with positive results for both breast and prostate cancer.

Some questions:

- I know there is a study which shows that of all the mushrooms WBM has the smallest 5ar inhibition, almost negligible. But subjectively I feel that it does have a DHT lowering effect. Has anyone else noticed this? I guess it could be a dose-related thing, or some other confounding factors in my case. There is however a recent study that says "WBM extract interrupts AR activity" - doi.org/10.1016/j.jnutbio.2020.108580

- Has anyone tried boiling for 3-4 hours? I suspect that potency is increased when boiling for this long. Also, it's how the extract from the studies was made:
View attachment 28178

- Are there any women here who tried WBM and can share their experience? Asking for a friend literally.

I never noticed much from them . Still ate them regularly, but got gut problems after eating them twice in a matter of 1 week and didnt eat them again after that.
Maybe it's time to try them again ...

 

[miquelangeles]

I never noticed much from them . Still ate them regularly, but got gut problems after eating them twice in a matter of 1 week and didnt eat them again after that.
Maybe it's time to try them again ...

If you try them again, do the 3+ hour boil method, thinly sliced or minced in advance. If the water evaporates too soon, keep some hot water on the side to refill.
The effects are very strong, worthy of this thread's title and nothing like usual cooking methods. It seems to lower both E and T though.

 

[Mauritio]

If you try them again, do the 3+ hour boil method, thinly sliced or minced in advance. If the water evaporates too soon, keep some hot water on the side to refill.
The effects are very strong, worthy of this thread's title and nothing like usual cooking methods. It seems to lower both E and T though.

So you think there's a significant difference from 1 1/2 or 2 hours to 3+ h of boiling?

How do you arrive at the conclusion that it also lowers T ?
Sounds like calcium-d-glucarate...

 

[peter88]

If you try them again, do the 3+ hour boil method, thinly sliced or minced in advance. If the water evaporates too soon, keep some hot water on the side to refill.
The effects are very strong, worthy of this thread's title and nothing like usual cooking methods. It seems to lower both E and T though.

Do you eat them alone or with other food?

 

[miquelangeles]

Do you eat them alone or with other food?

Sometimes as a side dish, sometimes with other foods if it's a good match.

 

[miquelangeles]

So you think there's a significant difference from 1 1/2 or 2 hours to 3+ h of boiling?

How do you arrive at the conclusion that it also lowers T ?
Sounds like calcium-d-glucarate...

Yes I believe there is a difference and it is inter-dependent on mushroom particle size or slice thickness during boiling, because of the chitin in the cell walls. Even when cooked, a certain amount is known to pass undigested in stool. I think more of the substances are extracted when the mushrooms are minced or finely sliced.

Several articles I think misquote the researchers and say that it "lowers both E and T", probably based on the study that showed it "disrupts androgen receptor signaling in prostate cancer cells".

From the phase I human trial for prostate cancer, it turns out that T and DHT remain unaffected. (doi.org/10.1002/cncr.29421)

In this study of 36 patients with biochemical recurrence of prostate cancer, WBM powder therapy was associated with declining PSA levels in 13 (36%) patients. Two patients responded completely, and 2 other patients responded partially. An additional 5 patients remain on protocol treatment to date because of their stable PSA values. These results indicate that mushroom intake can modulate PSA levels in biochemically recurrent prostate cancer. When comparing responders with nonresponders, the following factors did not correlate to response: daily mushroom dose, Gleason score, baseline PSA level, weight, age, baseline testosterone levels, and type of prior therapy. We did not detect any effect of mushroom powder therapy on testosterone, DHT, or DHEA levels. Importantly, in 2 patients, PSA decreased to undetectable levels after WBM treatment. To the best of our knowledge, this has not been observed in other studies examining phytochemical compounds for biochemically recurrent prostate cancer. Almost all of the patients in our study (92%), including 2 patients with CR, had received prostatectomy and radiation therapy.

Subjectively it did feel like a decrease in DHT but it could be confounded by a change in diet and activity in the last couple of weeks.

 

[miquelangeles]

So you think there's a significant difference from 1 1/2 or 2 hours to 3+ h of boiling?

How do you arrive at the conclusion that it also lowers T ?
Sounds like calcium-d-glucarate...

Looks like the phase I trial for prostate cancer used freeze-dried WBM powder, raw.

Preparation of Mushroom Tablets
Mushroom powder was prepared by freeze-drying (lyophilizing) WBM to steady moisture content; the lyophilized material was then milled through a fine mesh and formulated in 500 mg tablets. The WBM powder was compressed into tablets by Paragon Laboratories (Torrance, CA). Excipients included in the final product include microcrystalline cellulose, stearic acid, gelatin, silicon dioxide and magnesium stearate. Mushroom tablets were kept in bottles (100 tabs/bottle) in 4oC refrigerator. Based on our usage log, the maximum storage time was three years for each lot.

Mushroom Tablet Treatment
The mushroom tablets were taken twice daily until PSA progression, clinical progression, or toxicity. Twentyeight days constituted 1 treatment cycle. Dose escalation was conducted in cohorts of 6 patients each at 6 dosages: 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, and 14 g/d. If no dose-limiting toxicities (DLT) were encountered for a cohort of patients during the first 28 days of treatment, the next highest dosage was tested (up to 14 g/d). Approximately 90% of fresh WBM weight consists of water; therefore, 4- to 14-g mushroom tablets are equivalent to 40 to 140 g of fresh WBM.

Rationale for Dose Selection
Our trial examined 6 dosages beginning with 4 g/d. The maximum dosage was capped at 14 g/d (ie, 28 tablets daily). For chronic ingestion, this was thought to be the highest practical dosage. We did not attempt to reach the maximum tolerated dosage (MTD) because our preclinical data did not indicate a dose-dependent effect.

Other studies used WBM extract, by boiling the freeze-dried powder for 3h.

So just 140 grams of WBM daily is effective.

 

[Mauritio]

Yes I believe there is a difference and it is inter-dependent on mushroom particle size or slice thickness during boiling, because of the chitin in the cell walls. Even when cooked, a certain amount is known to pass undigested in stool. I think more of the substances are extracted when the mushrooms are minced or finely sliced.

Several articles I think misquote the researchers and say that it "lowers both E and T", probably based on the study that showed it "disrupts androgen receptor signaling in prostate cancer cells".

From the phase I human trial for prostate cancer, it turns out that T and DHT remain unaffected. (doi.org/10.1002/cncr.29421)



Subjectively it did feel like a decrease in DHT but it could be confounded by a change in diet and activity in the last couple of weeks.

Interesting I've never tried cooking them that long and also never sliced them.


Yeah if it lowers BPH its probably because of its anti aromatase effect.
There's similar studies on vitamin E and BPH and somehow they always manage to conclude that it antagonizes the androgen receptor (in vitro).

 

[Mauritio]

Subjectively it did feel like a decrease in DHT but it could be confounded by a change in diet and activity in the last couple of weeks.

What symptoms would you link that to?

 

[miquelangeles]

What symptoms would you link that to?

Psychologically, feeling less dominant and more at peace.

From the same phase I trial data, it does seem to inhibit 5-ar in a dose dependent manner.

I've been eating 500 grams per day, so I guess it's best to stay at 100-150 grams.

In the study it says they measured E as well, but the data isn't shown.

 

[Makrosky]

@Mauritio @miquelangeles it was discussed in the thread that if you boil the shrooms, taking either:
- the water
- the pieces
- or both

Can have different effects.

 

[Mauritio]

Psychologically, feeling less dominant and more at peace.

From the same phase I trial data, it does seem to inhibit 5-ar in a dose dependent manner.

I've been eating 500 grams per day, so I guess it's best to stay at 100-150 grams.

View attachment 28222


In the study it says they measured E as well, but the data isn't shown.

I dont doubt your experience ,sometimes I thought I'm having similar symptoms from vitamin e .
That's why I think Ray's answer to my question regarding vitamin e succinate lowering androgen receptor expression in vitro,applies here too.

" In vitro cell studies aren’t relevant to its effects in a person. It has anti-inflammatory effects that would account for lowering PSA."

Q:
I found this study that says vitamin E succinate inhibits the expression of the androgen receptor.
I can't really make sense of that. Would you say it's better to use another type of vitamin E ?


Vitamin E succinate inhibits the function of androgen receptor and the expression of prostate-specific antigen in prostate cancer cells


A: " In vitro cell studies aren’t relevant to its effects in a person. It has anti-inflammatory effects that would account for lowering PSA."


Q: I found studies showing beneficial effects against liver carcinoma and melanoma ,but in both cases only the succinate type was effective , no other type of Vitamin E .
Do you know why that is?"

A: " I think succinate might be functioning in a detoxifying reaction, increasing glucuronic acid."

 

[miquelangeles]

I dont doubt your experience ,sometimes I thought I'm having similar symptoms from vitamin e .
That's why I think Ray's answer to my question regarding vitamin e succinate lowering androgen receptor expression in vitro,applies here too.

" In vitro cell studies aren’t relevant to its effects in a person. It has anti-inflammatory effects that would account for lowering PSA."

I experimented with various dosages of vitamin E both topically and orally and besides improved skin health and circulation I haven't noticed any hormonal effects one way or the other. With the WBM the effects are too strong to go unnoticed. Same with medicinal mushrooms like Reishi, Lion's mane etc. Those are noticeably anti-androgenic, the WBM however not so much, it feels different.

Also, WBM seems to significantly improve urinary comfort/BPH. Do you think that's a sign of 5ar inhibition? Or aromatase inhibition? In the past when I experimented with Serenoa repens for example, I didn't feel any benefits whatsoever. I think I've seen studies showing that it is the aromatization that triggers BPH development.

 

[miquelangeles]

I experimented with various dosages of vitamin E both topically and orally and besides improved skin health and circulation I haven't noticed any hormonal effects one way or the other. With the WBM the effects are too strong to go unnoticed. Same with medicinal mushrooms like Reishi, Lion's mane etc. Those are noticeably anti-androgenic, the WBM however not so much, it feels different.

Also, WBM seems to significantly improve urinary comfort/BPH. Do you think that's a sign of 5ar inhibition? Or aromatase inhibition? In the past when I experimented with Serenoa repens for example, I didn't feel any benefits whatsoever. I think I've seen studies showing that it is the aromatization that triggers BPH development.

Effects of Transdermal Testosterone Gel or an Aromatase Inhibitor on Prostate Volume in Older Men​

Intervention:
The intervention included randomization to 5 g transdermal T gel (TT), 1 mg oral aromatase inhibitor (AI), or placebo daily for 12 months.

Results:
Serum T levels increased in both intervention groups; estradiol levels increased in the TT group, whereas it decreased in the AI group. At 12 months, prostate volume significantly increased (4.5 ± 1.76 cc, P < .05) only in the TT group. Increase in prostate-specific antigen levels were seen in both intervention groups at 6 months (P < .01 and P < .001). The lower urinary tract symptoms score increased only in the TT group (P < .05).

Conclusion:
The tropic effects of T on the prostate are mediated via its aromatization to estradiol. Administration of AI for 12 months to older men was not detrimental to the prostate.

Effects of Transdermal Testosterone Gel or an Aromatase Inhibitor on Prostate Volume in Older Men

AbstractContext:. T replacement is being increasingly offered to older men with age-related low T; hence, monitoring prostate health is important during T thera

academic.oup.com

 

[Mauritio]

Also, WBM seems to significantly improve urinary comfort/BPH.

No, I think thats because it lowers your estrogen.

 

[miquelangeles]

No, I think thats because it lowers your estrogen.

I guess WBM would go well with topical lanolin/mct.

 

[Mauritio]

I guess WBM would go well with topical lanolin/mct.

Yes , why not . But I don't feel like lanolin increases my estrogen, just to be clear .

 

[miquelangeles]

Yes , why not . But I don't feel like lanolin increases my estrogen, just to be clear .

Right. Just as AI in the context of possibly increased androgens from lanolin.