Keto Diet Craze May Lead To Reduced Bone Health: Research

Hysteric

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Messages
18

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
Found this in the local paper. I was listening to the Danny Roddy podcast with Haidut about Osteoporosis for the last 2 weeks and had to chuckle when i saw it.

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/he...ced-bone-health-research-20200204-p53xkd.html



Ray Peat wins again......:lol:

I think the saving grace for most Keto dieters is that they don't follow the diet all that closely. "Keto" has basically replaced the term "Low Carb," and even "Paleo" to some extent. Probably getting about 50g of carbs during the week, and maybe bumping it up on weekends, holidays, and vacations.

When I was very loosely following a "Paleo" diet with "Intermittent Fasting," I felt pretty well. It's only when I tried to "really dial it in" that freezing cold hands and feet followed in a matter of weeks.
 

baccheion

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,113
I wonder how OMAD followers get enough calcium in one meal. 2g at a time nets 280 mg bioavailable, still less than the 350 mg required. I wonder if they take (enough) vitamin D. With less carbs, they'd have to also supply sufficient gelatin/collagen/glycine.

On the plus side, melatonin and DHEA increase.

OMAD always appealed to me. Always had a weaker appetite. Then I found out from genetic testing that I'm a carb person.

Regular DEXA scans and labs would catch issues, I suppose.
 

Zoiros

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2020
Messages
36
Keto was a brief, but awful, experience for me. Prior to my discovery of Peat’s work, I did it for a few months to lose fat and get rid of a severe case of dandruff that I could not treat. It did, temporarily, reduce the severity of dandruff and resulted in some fat loss, but at a high price.

I developed bruxism, began grinding my teeth, and I was on my way to full blown TMJ. My jaw was so inflamed that I could not open my mouth, and I was gnashing my teeth so hard during sleep that I developed multiple exostoses (bone growths) on my gum line. Never mind the chipped teeth.

It was a painful, unpleasant experience overall, and it made my cortisol levels skyrocket. I felt horrible. After just 1 month, my hair started shedding rapidly. 150+ hairs a day were falling out.

I got the Keto “flu” so bad that it felt like chronic fatigue. I had trouble doing routine activities and had terrible brain fog. It never went away until I quit the diet. I was miserable the whole time.
 

schultz

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
2,653
Sugar increases bone density, as Ray has mentioned. Part of this is the carbon dioxide and another part (if fructose is being consumed) is reduction in phosphorus. I am sure there are other variables as well (inflammation was mentioned). High phosphorus intake and low calcium intake is likely a problem for followers of a 'keto' diet.
 

baccheion

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,113
Sugar increases bone density, as Ray has mentioned. Part of this is the carbon dioxide and another part (if fructose is being consumed) is reduction in phosphorus. I am sure there are other variables as well (inflammation was mentioned). High phosphorus intake and low calcium intake is likely a problem for followers of a 'keto' diet.
Would the milk + orange juice (+ vitamin K2) approach heal cavities? Is it net alkaline or acidic on urine and saliva pH?

Keto sites consistently recommend supplementing electrolytes to maintain levels and buffer against flu-like symptoms. Further, even a cup or so of collards provide enough calcium to even calcium:phosphorus. There's also using enough meat bones (provides both collagen and calcium/minerals to balance glycine:methionine and calcium:phosphorus) via added broth.
 

Indicatrice

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2020
Messages
39
I wonder how OMAD followers get enough calcium in one meal. 2g at a time nets 280 mg bioavailable, still less than the 350 mg required. I wonder if they take (enough) vitamin D. With less carbs, they'd have to also supply sufficient gelatin/collagen/glycine.

On the plus side, melatonin and DHEA increase.

OMAD always appealed to me. Always had a weaker appetite. Then I found out from genetic testing that I'm a carb person.

Regular DEXA scans and labs would catch issues, I suppose.

TBH I'm not even sure about whether recommended daily intake for calcium should be as high as it is now. There was an interesting theory proposed by some guy that noticed that osteoporosis is much more prevalent in the dairy-consuming West than in the not-so-dairy-consuming East. Essentially bone mineral density is much higher in middle aged Western adults than in middle aged Eastern adults whereas the opposite is true for the older populations. His theory is that excessive calcium intake throughout a lifetime leads to your osteoblasts overproducing bone matter and you essentially "wear them out" by the time you reach old age. It's an interesting theory which I'd rather wasn't true because I tolerate dairy really well and I'd go mad just eating eggs to get my nutrients..... If you want to see more about this theory check out his webpage Excessive Calcium Causes Osteoporosis
 

baccheion

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,113
TBH I'm not even sure about whether recommended daily intake for calcium should be as high as it is now. There was an interesting theory proposed by some guy that noticed that osteoporosis is much more prevalent in the dairy-consuming West than in the not-so-dairy-consuming East. Essentially bone mineral density is much higher in middle aged Western adults than in middle aged Eastern adults whereas the opposite is true for the older populations. His theory is that excessive calcium intake throughout a lifetime leads to your osteoblasts overproducing bone matter and you essentially "wear them out" by the time you reach old age. It's an interesting theory which I'd rather wasn't true because I tolerate dairy really well and I'd go mad just eating eggs to get my nutrients..... If you want to see more about this theory check out his webpage Excessive Calcium Causes Osteoporosis
Osteoporosis is related to protein/collagen. Poor mineralization (ie, calcium) would lead to soft bones.

Osteoporosis/collagen: vitamin C, silicon/monomethylsilanetriol, methionine/cysteine/sulfur, vitamin K2, B vitamins, vitamin A, gender hormones, collagen/gelatin, etc.

Calcium depletes/opposes: magnesium, potassium, phosphorus, zinc, sodium, manganese, and iron; vitamin B2, vitamin B3, vitamin E, vitamin A, vitamin B6, and vitamin B1.
 
Last edited:

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
There was an interesting theory proposed by some guy that noticed that osteoporosis is much more prevalent in the dairy-consuming West than in the not-so-dairy-consuming East.

Was his name Hansel Keys? Did he happen to look like Ancel Keys wearing a handlebar mustache?
 

GreekDemiGod

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
3,325
Location
Romania
I got the Keto “flu” so bad that it felt like chronic fatigue.
Same here. Went through 4 months of Keto Carnivore and was in a constant flu phase, energy levels were abysmal. I was 160 - 170 lbs, 12% BF and walking stairs made me tired.
I though that maybe I'm not cut to thrive on fat. But now I believe it's a systemic health issue.
My energy levels are better with carbs for sure, but not quite optimal.
 

schultz

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
2,653
Would the milk + orange juice (+ vitamin K2) approach heal cavities? Is it net alkaline or acidic on urine and saliva pH?

Keto sites consistently recommend supplementing electrolytes to maintain levels and buffer against flu-like symptoms. Further, even a cup or so of collards provide enough calcium to even calcium:phosphorus. There's also using enough meat bones (provides both collagen and calcium/minerals to balance glycine:methionine and calcium:phosphorus) via added broth.

Orange juice is definitely acidic and can damage the teeth (anything under 5.5 pH can), although when I get freshly squeezed it doesn't taste sour so I imagine the pH is closer to 7 than the generic stuff (which I am sure they add acid to). I follow my orange juice with a little piece of cheese or I rinse my mouth out with water or I sprinkle some baking soda in my mouth. Even though cheese is slightly acidic, it seems to increase the saliva pH to basic and keeps it there for a while. It also has the potential to mineralize the teeth on the same level as CCP-ACP.

Sugar isn't directly bad for the teeth as it's not acidic. If your mouth is 'sterile' then sugar posses no threat to the teeth.

I guess if you ate a cup of cooked collards for every 100g of steak then you'd have a 1 to 1 calcium to phosphorus ratio. I have never seen bone broth analyzed for calcium content or mineral content generally.
 

dreamcatcher

Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2016
Messages
863
Orange juice is definitely acidic and can damage the teeth (anything under 5.5 pH can), although when I get freshly squeezed it doesn't taste sour so I imagine the pH is closer to 7 than the generic stuff (which I am sure they add acid to). I follow my orange juice with a little piece of cheese or I rinse my mouth out with water or I sprinkle some baking soda in my mouth. Even though cheese is slightly acidic, it seems to increase the saliva pH to basic and keeps it there for a while. It also has the potential to mineralize the teeth on the same level as CCP-ACP.

Sugar isn't directly bad for the teeth as it's not acidic. If your mouth is 'sterile' then sugar posses no threat to the teeth.

I guess if you ate a cup of cooked collards for every 100g of steak then you'd have a 1 to 1 calcium to phosphorus ratio. I have never seen bone broth analyzed for calcium content or mineral content generally.
Bone broth is not a good source of calcium, Chris Masterjohn says. For calcium, bone meal is more effective.
 

baccheion

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,113
Same here. Went through 4 months of Keto Carnivore and was in a constant flu phase, energy levels were abysmal. I was 160 - 170 lbs, 12% BF and walking stairs made me tired.
I though that maybe I'm not cut to thrive on fat. But now I believe it's a systemic health issue.
My energy levels are better with carbs for sure, but not quite optimal.
Keto flu is said to be a sign of low electrolytes (sodium, potassium, and magnesium). There could also be depleted B5 and other B vitamins.
Bone broth is not a good source of calcium, Chris Masterjohn says. For calcium, bone meal is more effective.
Commercial bone broth tends to have little nutrients. You'd have to make it yourself. It would be known how much calcium is present, as you'd know how much was in the bone being soupified.
 

GreekDemiGod

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Messages
3,325
Location
Romania
@baccheion I was also having seriours heart palpitations. My body wasn't able to regulate minerals well. I payed a lot of attention to electrolytes. Never reached a balance. Ultimately decided it's not worth it if I have to pay so much attention. I supplemented Lite Salt for potassium, was paranoid of ODing on Potassium.
Funnily, in the Carnivore communities, people have managed to live without supplementing electrolytes.

Lost weight very rapidly on Carnivore, which I did not wanted. Lost both muscle and fat
 

baccheion

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,113
@baccheion I was also having seriours heart palpitations. My body wasn't able to regulate minerals well. I payed a lot of attention to electrolytes. Never reached a balance. Ultimately decided it's not worth it if I have to pay so much attention. I supplemented Lite Salt for potassium, was paranoid of ODing on Potassium.
Funnily, in the Carnivore communities, people have managed to live without supplementing electrolytes.

Lost weight very rapidly on Carnivore, which I did not wanted. Lost both muscle and fat
Electrolytes are mainly needed initially. After, it's more about sufficiency. Such a loss of sodium is said to be minimized by taking more B5, a vitamin that also minimizes malformed/acetoacetate ketones.
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2017
Messages
1,790
@baccheion I was also having seriours heart palpitations. My body wasn't able to regulate minerals well. I payed a lot of attention to electrolytes. Never reached a balance. Ultimately decided it's not worth it if I have to pay so much attention. I supplemented Lite Salt for potassium, was paranoid of ODing on Potassium.
Funnily, in the Carnivore communities, people have managed to live without supplementing electrolytes.

Lost weight very rapidly on Carnivore, which I did not wanted. Lost both muscle and fat
May I ask, were you eating grain- fed beef or grass- fed beef?
 

schultz

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
2,653
Bone broth is not a good source of calcium, Chris Masterjohn says. For calcium, bone meal is more effective.

That's what I've assumed in the past, though I've never seen evidence one way or another. I imagine boiled leafy green broth would be better.
 

Giraffe

Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
3,730
Electrolytes are mainly needed initially. After, it's more about sufficiency. Such a loss of sodium is said to be minimized by taking more B5, a vitamin that also minimizes malformed/acetoacetate ketones.
I searched a bit for a connection between B5 and sodium. I could not find anthing that suggested that B5 spares sodium.
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2017
Messages
1,790
That's what I've assumed in the past, though I've never seen evidence one way or another. I imagine boiled leafy green broth would be better.
A few years ago, when I was getting into bone broth, I recall seeing one site saying that it does not have much calcium. There was even a table with various minerals measured per liter, and calcium was pretty low. I got a bit disappointed. Was kinda hoping I could use it as a source and not need to supplement.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom