Kefir And Secondary Fermentation

Jib

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
591
Just throwing this out here: I've been "secondary fermenting" my kefir, and it results in a very noticeably milder kefir. Less tartness/acidic bite, more mellow. Almost like a very, very faint cheese-like flavor, with very little acidic bite. Secondary fermentation = letting the strained, completed kefir sit in a separate container, without kefir grains, at room temperature for something like 6 to 12 hours.

I brewed kefir for a few days, enough to almost fill a 1 gallon jug. And my strategy now is I make a quart of kefir daily, and use about a quart daily. Sometimes more. I use what I need from the jug, then replenish with fresh kefir.

The result is an ongoing "secondary fermented" kefir. I alternate between keeping this giant jug either on the countertop or in the fridge. It isn't an exact science on my part.

But I never drink freshly strained kefir. It all goes into the 'master jug' first, mixed up, and then used, usually after at least several hours of sitting on the countertop, or overnight in the fridge.

I'm well aware that kefir is not Peat friendly. Lactic acid, bacteria....all no-no's according to Peat's research. However, my gas and bloating is just about completely gone after switching from plain milk to kefir. So for now, I'm sticking with that. I think the nutrients in milk are valuable enough that dealing with some lactic acid and bacteria may be completely worth it, compared to not having dairy at all.

Another option I've considered is pre-treating milk with lactase enzyme, such as dissolving lactase liquid or pills in a gallon of milk and letting it sit for a few days.

Much more expensive than kefir grains, although no lactic acid or probiotics. Have not tried that yet. Of course you could also simply take Lactaid pills before drinking milk like a normal person, though 'normal people' don't drink the quantities of milk often recommended here, e.g. an upwards of one half-gallon daily.

So as a "middle of the road" approach, I'm thinking about secondary fermented kefir. I haven't researched this yet, but I am very curious about how secondary fermentation mellows the flavor so much. I wonder if the lactic acid is converted into another acid, or makes the kefir safer to consume in any way, shape, or form.

It certainly tastes that way. It's much more pleasant to drink. We can get so caught up in research that we ignore our own instincts and firsthand experiences. I think that's a mistake. So I'm trusting myself on this one, and will only drink secondary fermented kefir, as fresh kefir is actually pretty disagreeable to me. Too sour, too tart, almost feels like drinking it is a punishment. Secondary fermented plain kefir is pretty enjoyable however.

It's very likely that 'secondary fermented' kefir was the traditional way to consume kefir as well. My guess is bags full of large amounts of kefir were simply replenished periodically with fresh milk. The result would be you'd have very 'old,' mellowed kefir always in the mix. The whole point was preservation to begin with, so the idea of consuming fresh kefir when you could just as easily consume fresh milk does not make much sense to me. It's likely that small groups of people drank from the same container of kefir, which would always have "old" kefir in the mix.

Perhaps people even had their fill of fresh milk and then whatever was left over went into the kefir brew.

Just a theory. But I think intuition is important here. And again...it tastes much better to me, more palatable, more enjoyable, and perhaps that should be trusted.

So take this under advisement if you're making your own kefir. Definitely worth trying. I recently started brewing kefir again (did it for years a long time ago), but only over the past few weeks have experimented with this 'secondary fermentation.' Much to my surprise, it makes plain kefir taste quite good. Whether or not it's actually healthier is debatable, but going by my taste buds, it's better for me.

Not something I've seen discussed here, so figured I'd make a thread dedicated to it. FWIW my gas and bloating from plain milk have all but disappeared with the switch to kefir. Lactic acid and bacteria get a hugely bad rap here, but the calcium and protein in milk is so hugely beneficial, I'd argue that kefir is the lesser of two evils, compared to omitting dairy from the diet completely. I'd say it's at least worth experimenting with if you absolutely do not tolerate milk at all, to see if having it in a fermented, predigested form agrees with you.
 

charlie

Admin
The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
14,359
Location
USA
Nice! I have been toying the idea of testing kefir to see how it goes. Ordered some grains and going to give it a good run.

"Secondary fermentation" was mentioned here: Homogenized milk and KEFIR grains
 

charlie

Admin
The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
14,359
Location
USA
T

TheBeard

Guest
Thanks! Are you consuming kefir/Aran?

Yes, I drink raw milk, and raw milk kefir that I ferment myself.
Adding salt to them has been a game changer both for taste and the way I feel
 

charlie

Admin
The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
14,359
Location
USA
Yes, I drink raw milk, and raw milk kefir that I ferment myself.
Adding salt to them has been a game changer both for taste and the way I feel
Excellent. Appreciate your input. :hattip
 

pauljacob

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
435
I thought the water that separates from the Kefir was Whey. Or is it called Lactic acid?
 

alephx

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2018
Messages
131
Add salt to it to make Aran, it's delicious

Interesting, it sounds a bit like a food from Mexico, Jocoque (think it was developed by the Lebanese community back home). It is usually eaten with salt, olive oil, some cilantro finely chopped onion. I'll try looking for Aran here in the US or if you know any other name?
Jocoque - Wikipedia
 
T

TheBeard

Guest
Interesting, it sounds a bit like a food from Mexico, Jocoque (think it was developed by the Lebanese community back home). It is usually eaten with salt, olive oil, some cilantro finely chopped onion. I'll try looking for Aran here in the US or if you know any other name?
Jocoque - Wikipedia

I don't know, I'm not from the US.
Not everyone on the internet is :)
 

charlie

Admin
The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
14,359
Location
USA
Just throwing this out here: I've been "secondary fermenting" my kefir, and it results in a very noticeably milder kefir. Less tartness/acidic bite, more mellow. Almost like a very, very faint cheese-like flavor, with very little acidic bite. Secondary fermentation = letting the strained, completed kefir sit in a separate container, without kefir grains, at room temperature for something like 6 to 12 hours.

I brewed kefir for a few days, enough to almost fill a 1 gallon jug. And my strategy now is I make a quart of kefir daily, and use about a quart daily. Sometimes more. I use what I need from the jug, then replenish with fresh kefir.

The result is an ongoing "secondary fermented" kefir. I alternate between keeping this giant jug either on the countertop or in the fridge. It isn't an exact science on my part.

But I never drink freshly strained kefir. It all goes into the 'master jug' first, mixed up, and then used, usually after at least several hours of sitting on the countertop, or overnight in the fridge.

I'm well aware that kefir is not Peat friendly. Lactic acid, bacteria....all no-no's according to Peat's research. However, my gas and bloating is just about completely gone after switching from plain milk to kefir. So for now, I'm sticking with that. I think the nutrients in milk are valuable enough that dealing with some lactic acid and bacteria may be completely worth it, compared to not having dairy at all.

Another option I've considered is pre-treating milk with lactase enzyme, such as dissolving lactase liquid or pills in a gallon of milk and letting it sit for a few days.

Much more expensive than kefir grains, although no lactic acid or probiotics. Have not tried that yet. Of course you could also simply take Lactaid pills before drinking milk like a normal person, though 'normal people' don't drink the quantities of milk often recommended here, e.g. an upwards of one half-gallon daily.

So as a "middle of the road" approach, I'm thinking about secondary fermented kefir. I haven't researched this yet, but I am very curious about how secondary fermentation mellows the flavor so much. I wonder if the lactic acid is converted into another acid, or makes the kefir safer to consume in any way, shape, or form.

It certainly tastes that way. It's much more pleasant to drink. We can get so caught up in research that we ignore our own instincts and firsthand experiences. I think that's a mistake. So I'm trusting myself on this one, and will only drink secondary fermented kefir, as fresh kefir is actually pretty disagreeable to me. Too sour, too tart, almost feels like drinking it is a punishment. Secondary fermented plain kefir is pretty enjoyable however.

It's very likely that 'secondary fermented' kefir was the traditional way to consume kefir as well. My guess is bags full of large amounts of kefir were simply replenished periodically with fresh milk. The result would be you'd have very 'old,' mellowed kefir always in the mix. The whole point was preservation to begin with, so the idea of consuming fresh kefir when you could just as easily consume fresh milk does not make much sense to me. It's likely that small groups of people drank from the same container of kefir, which would always have "old" kefir in the mix.

Perhaps people even had their fill of fresh milk and then whatever was left over went into the kefir brew.

Just a theory. But I think intuition is important here. And again...it tastes much better to me, more palatable, more enjoyable, and perhaps that should be trusted.

So take this under advisement if you're making your own kefir. Definitely worth trying. I recently started brewing kefir again (did it for years a long time ago), but only over the past few weeks have experimented with this 'secondary fermentation.' Much to my surprise, it makes plain kefir taste quite good. Whether or not it's actually healthier is debatable, but going by my taste buds, it's better for me.

Not something I've seen discussed here, so figured I'd make a thread dedicated to it. FWIW my gas and bloating from plain milk have all but disappeared with the switch to kefir. Lactic acid and bacteria get a hugely bad rap here, but the calcium and protein in milk is so hugely beneficial, I'd argue that kefir is the lesser of two evils, compared to omitting dairy from the diet completely. I'd say it's at least worth experimenting with if you absolutely do not tolerate milk at all, to see if having it in a fermented, predigested form agrees with you.
Hi @Jib, any updates?
 
OP
Jib

Jib

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
591
Hi @Jib, any updates?

Been doing a quart of kefir every single day. I haven't been drinking regular milk at all and that pretty much got rid of all gas/bloating issues. I seem to tolerate kefir very well, and I really like the texture, even more than regular milk. Especially in smoothies but also plain.

I'm actually considering using a half gallon jar instead of a quart jar so I can make more kefir daily. Most of the quart just goes into my daily protein shake, which is kefir, a couple bananas, whey protein, collagen hydrolysate, creatine/glycine/beta-alanine/taurine. I tolerate it very well and this has been my breakfast every day for probably over a month now, maybe even two months. I haven't really been keeping track of time.

Been using 1% milk for making kefir.

Digestion has been very good overall. I'm pretty set on just having kefir and cheese exclusively for dairy consumption, no more plain milk.
 

charlie

Admin
The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
14,359
Location
USA
Been doing a quart of kefir every single day. I haven't been drinking regular milk at all and that pretty much got rid of all gas/bloating issues. I seem to tolerate kefir very well, and I really like the texture, even more than regular milk. Especially in smoothies but also plain.

I'm actually considering using a half gallon jar instead of a quart jar so I can make more kefir daily. Most of the quart just goes into my daily protein shake, which is kefir, a couple bananas, whey protein, collagen hydrolysate, creatine/glycine/beta-alanine/taurine. I tolerate it very well and this has been my breakfast every day for probably over a month now, maybe even two months. I haven't really been keeping track of time.

Been using 1% milk for making kefir.

Digestion has been very good overall. I'm pretty set on just having kefir and cheese exclusively for dairy consumption, no more plain milk.
Incredible, thank you so much for sharing. I have my first batch going right now. Do you mind sharing your source of grains? I do wonder if different sources make a difference. Also, what kind of cheese are you eating. I find I cannot do milk, but cheese is fine.
 
OP
Jib

Jib

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
591
Incredible, thank you so much for sharing. I have my first batch going right now. Do you mind sharing your source of grains? I do wonder if different sources make a difference. Also, what kind of cheese are you eating. I find I cannot do milk, but cheese is fine.

Sure thing.

I just got some random grains on eBay. If you browse thru eBay you'll find different people offering different things. Not sure how much quality difference there is. This is an interesting study but I haven't gone through most of it yet. Not sure but I'd imagine this might clarify some characteristics of the bacteria/fungal colonies in kefir grains and how much they might vary grain to grain. I keep in mind they're living organisms and they'll likely slightly change in composition based on their location and the milk used. Personally I don't worry about it at all and if I lost my grains, I'd be fine with getting whatever on eBay from anyone.

Sequencing-Based Analysis of the Bacterial and Fungal Composition of Kefir Grains and Milks from Multiple Sources

For the first batch, it'll probably be pretty different from when the grains are replenished and really get going. So don't be put off if it isn't great at first. It can take a few days for them to come back online after shipping.

The exact ones I got were here:

1 tsp of Beneficial Organic Milk Kefir Grains | eBay

(from seller "happykefiring")

And I like all kinds of cheese. Cheese curds, brie cheese, cheddar, those taco/Mexican shredded blends, mozzarella. I tolerate any cheese just fine. I just don't like the super ripe stuff that smells like ammonia. That is truly awful. I've only tried fancy stuff like that a couple times and nearly threw up.
 

Korven

Member
Joined
May 4, 2019
Messages
1,133
Kefir sounds pretty awesome. I probably need the extra digestive help from the yeast/bacteria + hopefully it can help rebalance my gut microbiome and starve out the bad guys. Just ordered activated kefir grains and will report back here how it goes.
 

Rudy45

New Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2020
Messages
2
Incredible, thank you so much for sharing. I have my first batch going right now. Do you mind sharing your source of grains? I do wonder if different sources make a difference. Also, what kind of cheese are you eating. I find I cannot do milk, but cheese is fine.
Join the facebook group: Kefir grains, Scoby and others to share. I paid $1.50 to have my milk kefir grains mailed to me. This was pre-covid. I don't know what postage would be now. You're only allowed to charge postage on this group, but if people have to click and ship priority from their home, it would be more. I'd mail some out but I'm rebuilding the grains after letting them sit dormant too long in the fridge:)
 

SOMO

Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Messages
1,094
Kefir grains can also consume Sucrose and Maltose, not just Lactose.

In my opinion, fermenting Pasteurized/Homogenized milk may be problematic - I believe it may increase absorption of the Xanthine Oxidase.
 

lvysaur

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
Messages
2,286
The whole point was preservation to begin with, so the idea of consuming fresh kefir when you could just as easily consume fresh milk does not make much sense to me.
Well the other point was to make the milk suitable for lactose intolerant people. Kefir is a Caucasian/Eastern European drink where intolerance is fairly common.
For similar reasons you don't see much of a fermented dairy tradition in the British Isles (cheesemaking was largely imported from France)
 

cjm

Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
664
Location
Baltimore, MD
Thanks for starting this. You're one of the first links in a forum search for kefir so I didn't do a deep dive to see if you were re-hashing anything. Regardless, I love the detail and enthusiasm in this post, and as I go down the kefir road myself (been about 3 weeks now?), I'll leave my thoughts here.

@CLASH was my original inspiration; if you see this, are you still "doing" kefir?

It's very likely that 'secondary fermented' kefir was the traditional way to consume kefir as well. My guess is bags full of large amounts of kefir were simply replenished periodically with fresh milk. The result would be you'd have very 'old,' mellowed kefir always in the mix. The whole point was preservation to begin with, so the idea of consuming fresh kefir when you could just as easily consume fresh milk does not make much sense to me. It's likely that small groups of people drank from the same container of kefir, which would always have "old" kefir in the mix.

I usually leave a little brew with the grains after I strain and transfer to the secondary container, but as a rule, I let my batches do at least a few hours in the fridge after the primary ferment. It's thicker, tastier, more fun to drink in general.

I started off making frozen fruit smoothies with it, but lazy person that I am, I now just heat a tablespoon or two or honey in the microwave for 12-15 seconds in my cup and pour the kefir brew over it. So much nutrition in milk, it's like, why bother with the hassle of fruit. Haha. To each their own.

@Jib How much (many?) grains do you use for for a quart? My grains are about a heaping tablespoon as of today and my quart brews are ready for the secondary ferment after 12 hours or so. I'd love to cut down to 8 hours and get an extra batch per day. It's whatever though, I'm so excited how well it's working and good I feel. I imagine my colon in a lactose bath, the shrieks of bad bacteria as they disintegrate and get flushed out.
 

CLASH

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Messages
1,219
@cjm
Had to stop dairy, with the exception of butter. I wasn't able to tolerate it very well. I tested positive for a delayed sensitivity reaction to casein unfortunately.


They say 6 months of avoidance may make a difference, but I continue to try to introduce dairy with the same crop of symptoms popping up each time unfortunately. Atleast I have butter lol.
 
OP
Jib

Jib

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
591
Thanks for starting this. You're one of the first links in a forum search for kefir so I didn't do a deep dive to see if you were re-hashing anything. Regardless, I love the detail and enthusiasm in this post, and as I go down the kefir road myself (been about 3 weeks now?), I'll leave my thoughts here.

@CLASH was my original inspiration; if you see this, are you still "doing" kefir?

I usually leave a little brew with the grains after I strain and transfer to the secondary container, but as a rule, I let my batches do at least a few hours in the fridge after the primary ferment. It's thicker, tastier, more fun to drink in general.

I started off making frozen fruit smoothies with it, but lazy person that I am, I now just heat a tablespoon or two or honey in the microwave for 12-15 seconds in my cup and pour the kefir brew over it. So much nutrition in milk, it's like, why bother with the hassle of fruit. Haha. To each their own.

@Jib How much (many?) grains do you use for for a quart? My grains are about a heaping tablespoon as of today and my quart brews are ready for the secondary ferment after 12 hours or so. I'd love to cut down to 8 hours and get an extra batch per day. It's whatever though, I'm so excited how well it's working and good I feel. I imagine my colon in a lactose bath, the shrieks of bad bacteria as they disintegrate and get flushed out.

I only have about a teaspoon at the moment. I just randomly eat the excesses whenever they get bigger. I like mine about 24 hours per batch.

Been using a half gallon glass jug. Fat strainer: pour the fresh kefir into the fat strainer, the bigger grain(s) will get trapped on top. Easy. Pour it out into the main 'secondary ferment' jug, put back in the fridge. I use a wooden bung for a plug for the gallon jug because the threads wouldn't accommodate the caps I have.

I'm doing 5 cups per batch on average. If I start drinking a lot more, I'll do the full half gallon in a batch to replenish my supply. I just rinse the jar between uses. It looks a little dirty with the kefir residue, but I haven't bothered to clean it out. Could be way more sanitary with it but I really don't care right now. After each 'brew' the jar gets a good shake with water, if it's especially bad I'll use a sort of pressure washing attachment on the faucet. But it basically always has kefir residue above the line where the fresh milk is. Hasn't been a problem so far (knock on wood).

Never tried an 8 hour ferment but I imagine that could work with enough grains, and ideally a warm temperature. Overall, my personal experience would be with doing much larger batches as desired for 12 or 24 hours. I have a bunch of gallon jugs from winemaking so I just use those.

I would like to try doing a huge batch of Greek yogurt with kefir. I think I mentioned this thing elsewhere:

"Kleynhuis Greek Yogurt Strainer Set: Stainless Steel Colander with Organic Cotton Strainer Pouch - Premium Greek Yogurt Maker, Large 5-Quart Size"


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07XZP1LH...&ref_=pd_luc_rh_crh_rh_sbs_sem_02_01_t_ttl_lh

Looks very good. I'm not paranoid about drinking the whey anymore after I've been doing so much whey isolate (2 scoops a day) for months with no apparent issues. Would just be a matter of taste, could mix the kefir greek yogurt with honey and just pound down some kefir whey after (or during) a workout.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom