Katharina Dalton: The Dietary "musts" For Improving Progesterone (Hint: No Low Carb, No Starvation)

[beachbum]

Niiicccccceee information. Can someone give examples of what kinds of starches she talks about because I only found one pdf book of hers but she doesnt explain that part of it. From what the OP posted.

Dr. Dalton makes it very clear in her book that the treatment-plan for restoring the progesterone hormonal function in a woman must focus first and foremost on fixing the diet in such a way that:

1) Cells, at all cost, must not be deprived from or run out of of sugar
2) Adrenaline is kept as low as reasonably possible, not allowed to spike.
As you may see 1) and 2) are closely related since when tissues are deprived from sugar, there usually comes an adrenaline response. Also, when adrenaline gets high, the blood gets flooded with free fatty acids, which in turn block the cells ability to metabolize glucose (Randle cycle). So 1) and 2) create a vicious cycle.

If it is sugar we run out of in our cells can we have something with sugar as long as it doesnt spike insullin or does have to be starch only. Right now I have a craving for rice pudding..yum

 

[whodathunkit]

@beachbum, I can't find a PDF of any of her books. Did you go through a service or do you have a link to the free one?

 

[beachbum]

@beachbum, I can't find a PDF of any of her books. Did you go through a service or do you have a link to the free one?

This is what I typed into Google:
Katharina Dalton pdf three hourly starch diet ..and a pdf you can download.

 

[whodathunkit]

This is what I typed into Google:
Katharina Dalton pdf three hourly starch diet ..and a pdf you can download.

Thanks. I misunderstood...I thought you found a free pdf of one of her books. Oh well.

Wish they were on Kindle or that I didn't have to sign up for a service to get them.

 

[beachbum]

Thanks. I misunderstood...I thought you found a free pdf of one of her books. Oh well.

Wish they were on Kindle or that I didn't have to sign up for a service to get them.

Yes I did after I googled that, I wasn't able to copy the pdf or didn't know how.

 

[whodathunkit]

So I've been doing a Dalton/Peat hybrid eating style for a few weeks, along with fairly high progesterone supplementation, and I really think it's helping. I've suddenly been motivated and able to exert the sustained effort to truly clean my house again, sight unseen. For years I've only been able to exert sporadic effort, and even thinking about a solid week of cleaning every single day for several hours...fuggedaboutit. Wasn't happening. Haven't been able to do anything like that for over a decade.

But not this week. I've cleaned for several hours, up to six hours daily, every day since Monday. I'm talking chores that make even normal people (i.e., not people with long-time CFS and lingering metabolic issues) crazy like seriously decluttering closets and sheds, scrubbing tiled floor grout on hands and knees, etc. Just got done with grout scrubbing the entire kitchen about a half hour ago and feel pretty darn good. With bleach, no less. Chemicals always used to crash me. But not this time. More shocking still, I have plans for every day until the end of *next* week! Again, sight unseen. :)

Generally speaking, aside from the cleaning, my focus and cognition seem to be in a lot better shape, too. More cogent, not as scattered, much less foggy.

By hybrid eating style I mean more starch than Peat recommends but more fruit and sugar than Dalton appears to recommend. But small meals every couple/few hours. No big meals. Mostly very low fat but do have a tasty amount of butter or coconut oil with usually one meal per day.

Plus I'm symptomatically controlling stress with PRN honey and progesterone. When I start to get wigged out or overwhelmed (the two biggest roadblocks to me cleaning and fixing my house) I hit the honey jar with a teaspoon and the progesterone bottle with my finger for a "line" transferred to my gums. Couple minutes later the overwhelmed feeling goes away.

PRN dosing usually works out to once an hour. So, the first hour I might eat, and then in the second or third hour if I get stressed I'll do the honey and progesterone. Then eat again about an hour after the PRN dose. Worth noting is that if I'm not having to make multiple fast decisions about what to keep and what to toss, or what's the highest priority on an almost infinitely long list of tasks, I'm okay. That is, if I've got clear priorities or a clear task, I don't seem to get as stressed or need it as much, even in the face of larger physical energy expenditures. It's when things seem to be stacking up in a short period of time that the extra sugar and progesterone come in handy. They seem to help me to be able to knock things down to reality. If you think about it like the brain is the biggest consumer of carbs then this really makes a lot of sense, but it's not terribly evident to most of us on its face and you have to live it to really get it, I guess. I sure did.

Hope I can get my metabolism fixed to the point where I don't need the interventions as often. We shall see.

Thanks, @PakPik, for starting this thread! It was pointed out to me months ago, I just wish I'd paid attention earlier!

 

[beachbum]

So I've been doing a Dalton/Peat hybrid eating style for a few weeks, along with fairly high progesterone supplementation, and I really think it's helping. I've suddenly been motivated and able to exert the sustained effort to truly clean my house again, sight unseen. For years I've only been able to exert sporadic effort, and even thinking about a solid week of cleaning every single day for several hours...fuggedaboutit. Wasn't happening. Haven't been able to do anything like that for over a decade.

But not this week. I've cleaned for several hours, up to six hours daily, every day since Monday. I'm talking chores that make even normal people (i.e., not people with long-time CFS and lingering metabolic issues) crazy like seriously decluttering closets and sheds, scrubbing tiled floor grout on hands and knees, etc. Just got done with grout scrubbing the entire kitchen about a half hour ago and feel pretty darn good. With bleach, no less. Chemicals always used to crash me. But not this time. More shocking still, I have plans for every day until the end of *next* week! Again, sight unseen. :)

Generally speaking, aside from the cleaning, my focus and cognition seem to be in a lot better shape, too. More cogent, not as scattered, much less foggy.

By hybrid eating style I mean more starch than Peat recommends but more fruit and sugar than Dalton appears to recommend. But small meals every couple/few hours. No big meals. Mostly very low fat but do have a tasty amount of butter or coconut oil with usually one meal per day.

Plus I'm symptomatically controlling stress with PRN honey and progesterone. When I start to get wigged out or overwhelmed (the two biggest roadblocks to me cleaning and fixing my house) I hit the honey jar with a teaspoon and the progesterone bottle with my finger for a "line" transferred to my gums. Couple minutes later the overwhelmed feeling goes away.

PRN dosing usually works out to once an hour. So, the first hour I might eat, and then in the second or third hour if I get stressed I'll do the honey and progesterone. Then eat again about an hour after the PRN dose. Worth noting is that if I'm not having to make multiple fast decisions about what to keep and what to toss, or what's the highest priority on an almost infinitely long list of tasks, I'm okay. That is, if I've got clear priorities or a clear task, I don't seem to get as stressed or need it as much, even in the face of larger physical energy expenditures. It's when things seem to be stacking up in a short period of time that the extra sugar and progesterone come in handy. They seem to help me to be able to knock things down to reality. If you think about it like the brain is the biggest consumer of carbs then this really makes a lot of sense, but it's not terribly evident to most of us on its face and you have to live it to really get it, I guess. I sure did.

Hope I can get my metabolism fixed to the point where I don't need the interventions as often. We shall see.

Thanks, @PakPik, for starting this thread! It was pointed out to me months ago, I just wish I'd paid attention earlier!

Funny, I too have been adding more honey. I can't do white sugar though. Honey makes me feel even and white sugar makes me tired and immediately feel my acne acting up.

 

[whodathunkit]

Funny, I too have been adding more honey. I can't do white sugar though. Honey makes me feel even and white sugar makes me tired and immediately feel my acne acting up.

Not really about the honey or sugar, more the "injection" of carbs. I don't have any problem with white sugar, either...in fact, one of my favorite breakfasts is now cold rice (white or sprouted brown) with sugar and skim milk, as if it were cornflakes instead of rice. If you grew up liking mainstream cereal for breakfast, it's a great alternative. Would taking sugar with a meal make you flair?

Honey works better for me during the "stress intervals" because IMO eating a teaspoon of white sugar is pretty gross. Plus, it's got no nutritive value at all. Honey's still almost too sweet, but I can do it, and has lots of vitamins and minerals.

 

[beachbum]

Not really about the honey or sugar, more the "injection" of carbs. I don't have any problem with white sugar, either...in fact, one of my favorite breakfasts is now cold rice (white or sprouted brown) with sugar and skim milk, as if it were cornflakes instead of rice. If you grew up liking mainstream cereal for breakfast, it's a great alternative. Would taking sugar with a meal make you flair?

Honey works better for me during the "stress intervals" because IMO eating a teaspoon of white sugar is pretty gross. Plus, it's got no nutritive value at all. Honey's still almost too sweet, but I can do it, and has lots of vitamins and minerals.

I just notice a difference that the sugar feels like it gives me a stress response but honey doesn't.

 

[lollipop]

So I've been doing a Dalton/Peat hybrid eating style for a few weeks, along with fairly high progesterone supplementation, and I really think it's helping. I've suddenly been motivated and able to exert the sustained effort to truly clean my house again, sight unseen. For years I've only been able to exert sporadic effort, and even thinking about a solid week of cleaning every single day for several hours...fuggedaboutit. Wasn't happening. Haven't been able to do anything like that for over a decade.

But not this week. I've cleaned for several hours, up to six hours daily, every day since Monday. I'm talking chores that make even normal people (i.e., not people with long-time CFS and lingering metabolic issues) crazy like seriously decluttering closets and sheds, scrubbing tiled floor grout on hands and knees, etc. Just got done with grout scrubbing the entire kitchen about a half hour ago and feel pretty darn good. With bleach, no less. Chemicals always used to crash me. But not this time. More shocking still, I have plans for every day until the end of *next* week! Again, sight unseen. :)

Generally speaking, aside from the cleaning, my focus and cognition seem to be in a lot better shape, too. More cogent, not as scattered, much less foggy.

By hybrid eating style I mean more starch than Peat recommends but more fruit and sugar than Dalton appears to recommend. But small meals every couple/few hours. No big meals. Mostly very low fat but do have a tasty amount of butter or coconut oil with usually one meal per day.

Plus I'm symptomatically controlling stress with PRN honey and progesterone. When I start to get wigged out or overwhelmed (the two biggest roadblocks to me cleaning and fixing my house) I hit the honey jar with a teaspoon and the progesterone bottle with my finger for a "line" transferred to my gums. Couple minutes later the overwhelmed feeling goes away.

PRN dosing usually works out to once an hour. So, the first hour I might eat, and then in the second or third hour if I get stressed I'll do the honey and progesterone. Then eat again about an hour after the PRN dose. Worth noting is that if I'm not having to make multiple fast decisions about what to keep and what to toss, or what's the highest priority on an almost infinitely long list of tasks, I'm okay. That is, if I've got clear priorities or a clear task, I don't seem to get as stressed or need it as much, even in the face of larger physical energy expenditures. It's when things seem to be stacking up in a short period of time that the extra sugar and progesterone come in handy. They seem to help me to be able to knock things down to reality. If you think about it like the brain is the biggest consumer of carbs then this really makes a lot of sense, but it's not terribly evident to most of us on its face and you have to live it to really get it, I guess. I sure did.

Hope I can get my metabolism fixed to the point where I don't need the interventions as often. We shall see.

Thanks, @PakPik, for starting this thread! It was pointed out to me months ago, I just wish I'd paid attention earlier!

Great feedback of your experience @whodathunkit! BTW...the rice milk and sugar idea sounds yummmmmy...

How much progesterone are you getting in a day (generally)? Meaning what is a lot for you?

 

[whodathunkit]

Great feedback of your experience @whodathunkit! BTW...the rice milk and sugar idea sounds yummmmmy...

Yeah, add some raisins to it. O'course not too many, cuz IME and like Peat says they can be estrogenic in excess, but they're very good in this cereal alternative. :)

How much progesterone are you getting in a day (generally)? Meaning what is a lot for you?

Depends. I don't really keep track. Prolly at least 200mg/day, sometimes up to 400mg/day. Maybe a little more. Yesterday was tough because of the floor so I was sucking it down like a drunk falling off the wagon into a vat of homebrew. :p Slept like a log last night, though, and feel great today, so it must've worked. Not long ago a day like yesterday would have put me in the tank for at least a few days, motivation-wise and physically. Today I'm back at it again. Not sore, not discouraged, not drained physically or mentally.

Also worth noting is that a few years ago a day like yesterday would have given me Post Exertional Malaise (PEM)for weeks...literally drained physically and mentally. If I could have gotten up the wherewithal to start the floor at all, that is.

Everything I've been doing has led up to this but the Dalton suggestions definitely seem to have put me over the edge back into real normalcy, for sure.

 

[lollipop]

Yeah, add some raisins to it. O'course not too many, cuz IME and like Peat says they can be estrogenic in excess, but they're very good in this cereal alternative. :)


Depends. I don't really keep track. Prolly at least 200mg/day, sometimes up to 400mg/day. Maybe a little more. Yesterday was tough because of the floor so I was sucking it down like a drunk falling off the wagon into a vat of homebrew. :p Slept like a log last night, though, and feel great today, so it must've worked. Not long ago a day like yesterday would have put me in the tank for at least a few days, motivation-wise and physically. Today I'm back at it again. Not sore, not discouraged, not drained physically or mentally.

Also worth noting is that a few years ago a day like yesterday would have given me Post Exertional Malaise (PEM)for weeks...literally drained physically and mentally. If I could have gotten up the wherewithal to start the floor at all, that is.

Everything I've been doing has led up to this but the Dalton suggestions definitely seem to have put me over the edge back into real normalcy, for sure.

Thank you! Congrats on the gradual improvement ❤❤ encouraging for others reading this.

 

[PakPik]

Thank you! Congrats on the gradual improvement ❤❤ encouraging for others reading this.

I am happy as well, that's great news @whodathunkit !!! I agree with Lisa, your experience can be very encouraging to others. It sounds like you've had a rough time, but I'm happy you've made great, gradual improvements! Much love! ❤❤

 

[SQu]

It's when things seem to be stacking up in a short period of time that the extra sugar and progesterone come in handy

Same here, that feeling, happens often. I will make a note of this.

a few years ago a day like yesterday would have given me Post Exertional Malaise (PEM)for weeks...literally drained physically and mentally.

Brings back bad memories, wish I'd known then I wasn't the only one. Best advice on offer then was 'exercise will give you energy'. And I tried. And it didn't. What a surprise. At the time a little voice in my head was insisting that more exhaustion couldn't help exhaustion. But I was the one who didn't know what she was doing, right? It is only now, many years later, that they're wondering why their formula of doing what society tells you is suddenly resulting in heart attacks, cancer, crumbling bones and hospital grade depression. They are still fashionably thin though! I was the crazy one who insisted on health before thinness. And ironically got fatter and less healthy first (something I think I could have done better in retrospect had I known how).

Fantastic news, well done and thank you!

 

[whodathunkit]

wish I'd known then I wasn't the only one. Best advice on offer then was 'exercise will give you energy'. And I tried. And it didn't. What a surprise. At the time a little voice in my head was insisting that more exhaustion couldn't help exhaustion. But I was the one who didn't know what she was doing, right? It is only now, many years later, that they're wondering why their formula of doing what society tells you is suddenly resulting in heart attacks, cancer, crumbling bones and hospital grade depression. They are still fashionably thin though! I was the crazy one who insisted on health before thinness. And ironically got fatter and less healthy first (something I think I could have done better in retrospect had I known how).

It 's like we were separated at birth or something.

Interestingly, my mother is still giving me the "exercise gives you energy" spiel and despite my relating my experiences and experiential knowledge about the subject to her, she sees my recovery as proof of the rightness of her advice. But then, exercise and diet change only worked radically for her when she was much younger and much, much less in the tank metabolically than I was, so I stopped letting that get on my nerves. She's always meant well, and I do think the intensity of the successful intervention can vary depending upon a lot of different factors. It's just disheartening that mainstream dogma wants to make it all so cookie-cutter.

 

[SQu]

I think it's a pity that while we can understand where they're coming from (my mom was like that too) they can't see where we're coming from. But we're the lucky ones in the end because we search for the truth because theirs doesn't work, but we find that out before it's too late, and they don't. I could give dozens of examples. I have a motto, never listen to weight loss advice from someone who has never been more than a few pounds overweight. I've done my crashing, theirs is still coming, if I were them I'd be the one asking. But they don't know that yet. And I'm the last one they'd ask anyway! The "salad and cycling" formula has been working for them on the surface for years and they're bemused by the warning signs that are shouting for attention, but I'm the only one hearing.

5 days into another fairly regular cycle I'm counting the days till I can start progesterone again and in the meantime I'm going for endogenous production, realizing it's progesterone and the 3 hourly schedule (sugar or starch, whichever appeals) that is my relaxed and feel good mode; and it's largely the long interval/skipped meal - low blood sugar - adrenaline - flushing - aching - tired- overwhelmed - irritable estrogen and cortisol state that's regression. No surprises, just "getting it" more. Coffee and gelatin have been good, the latter I use anyway to stop heavy prolonged flow.

 

[marteagal]

Can someone give examples of what kinds of starches she talks about because I only found one pdf book of hers but she doesnt explain that part of it.

Yes, at least with regard to the paper @PakPik was referring to some posts ago, titled "Diet of women with severe premenstrual syndrome and the effect of changing to a three-hourly starch diet", by Dalton & Holton (1992):

"The three-hourly starch regime suggested dividing their usual food into six portions and eating small portions of starch-containing foods (flour, potatoes, oats, rice or rye) every three hours and always within one hour of rising or retiring. The rest of the foods they normally consumed, such as fruit, vegetables and proteins, could be eaten when they chose. The questionnaires were analysed for the daytime and overnight interval between consuming starch-containing foods, whether or not they ate breakfast, and the daily consumption of first-class protein (meat, fish, eggs, cheese), fresh fruit and/or vegetables, and alcohol."

Here are some other excerpts, if you interested:

"Two women did not start the diet fearing weight gain, and four women werenot followed up. Adhering to the three-hour starch regime brought marked beneficial effect or improvement to 70 per cent, being more marked among those with PMS (89 per cent) compared with those with menstrual magnifi- cation (55 per cent), and 19 per cent were satisfied with dietary advice alone (Table 2). More women in the PMS group required progesterone in addition to diet and their dose requirement was higher than for those with menstrual magnification (Table 2)."

"Glucose tolerance tests on PMS sufferers have shown blood glucose levels are within normal limits [Ref. 20-22], but after three hours of testing the blood glucose may rise without any further administration of glucose, indeed the level may rise above the initial level as a result of a release of adrenalin."

"The dietary regime of three-hourly starch used in these trials aims at maintaining a steady blood glucose level throughout the waking day; there were no other restrictions and no supplements were recommended. It is surprising how many women have long food intervals, with an average of one daily food interval of 7 hours and a 13.5 hour interval overnight, which is when an adrenalin release may be expected to correct the low blood glucose level. The response to the three-hourly starch diet was most satisfactory, especially with 23 per cent of severe PMS sufferers managing to control their symptoms with diet alone."

Table 2 - Effect of diet and final treatment

 

[PakPik]

Yes, at least with regard to the paper @PakPik was referring to some posts ago, titled "Diet of women with severe premenstrual syndrome and the effect of changing to a three-hourly starch diet", by Dalton & Holton (1992):

"The three-hourly starch regime suggested dividing their usual food into six portions and eating small portions of starch-containing foods (flour, potatoes, oats, rice or rye) every three hours and always within one hour of rising or retiring. The rest of the foods they normally consumed, such as fruit, vegetables and proteins, could be eaten when they chose. The questionnaires were analysed for the daytime and overnight interval between consuming starch-containing foods, whether or not they ate breakfast, and the daily consumption of first-class protein (meat, fish, eggs, cheese), fresh fruit and/or vegetables, and alcohol."

Here are some other excerpts, if you interested:

"Two women did not start the diet fearing weight gain, and four women werenot followed up. Adhering to the three-hour starch regime brought marked beneficial effect or improvement to 70 per cent, being more marked among those with PMS (89 per cent) compared with those with menstrual magnifi- cation (55 per cent), and 19 per cent were satisfied with dietary advice alone (Table 2). More women in the PMS group required progesterone in addition to diet and their dose requirement was higher than for those with menstrual magnification (Table 2)."

"Glucose tolerance tests on PMS sufferers have shown blood glucose levels are within normal limits [Ref. 20-22], but after three hours of testing the blood glucose may rise without any further administration of glucose, indeed the level may rise above the initial level as a result of a release of adrenalin."

"The dietary regime of three-hourly starch used in these trials aims at maintaining a steady blood glucose level throughout the waking day; there were no other restrictions and no supplements were recommended. It is surprising how many women have long food intervals, with an average of one daily food interval of 7 hours and a 13.5 hour interval overnight, which is when an adrenalin release may be expected to correct the low blood glucose level. The response to the three-hourly starch diet was most satisfactory, especially with 23 per cent of severe PMS sufferers managing to control their symptoms with diet alone."

Table 2 - Effect of diet and final treatment
View attachment 4734

I appreciate you sharing this info; it gives us some specifics on Dalton's approach. Also, it is interesting to see the differences in the PMS vs. the "Menstrual magnification" ladies. Thanks a lot @marteagal

 

[Milena]

My guess is that in England those times when she designed this diet, fruits were not available year round. They have peaches that crunch like apples!!!! I remember this when I was there as a teen!!!!! Nonot much sugar...

Actually, in the early 60's, when I was a child, although there wasn't much fruit around, it was wonderfully ripe and seasonal. Peaches were large and lusciously juicy and sweet. Nowadays, even strawberries are often picked unripe. I remember the short yearly window for blood oranges, mmm!
I hardly ever buy fruit, now, unless it is a berry or came from straight from the tree. There are some lovely cherries when in season, locally.

 

[whodathunkit]

Actually, in the early 60's, when I was a child, although there wasn't much fruit around, it was wonderfully ripe and seasonal. Peaches were large and lusciously juicy and sweet. Nowadays, even strawberries are often picked unripe.

Yep. I've sadly quit buying a lot of fresh fruit for that reason. It's garbage. Strawberries are tasteless and peaches are just mush. It's sad. I do a lot of frozen fruit, or dependable things like mangos or oranges.