Katharina Dalton And Progesterone & Blood Sugar

[gilson dantas]

K Dalton says that when using progesterone we must avoid low blood sugar: "we must have a stable blood sugar level, and for that we insist that patients use the three-hourly starch diet. The ideal is that they should eat in a way that does not cause a drop in the blood sugar, because a drop in the blood sugar will stop the utilization of progesterone for seven days" [Interview: Katharina Dalton, MD", september/1999, I J P Compounding]; forgetting about starchy foods,
1 - Do you guys know something about those "seven days"?
2 - In this case what about sleep hours [and drop in the blood sugar]?
@tara @Blossom @burtlancast

 

[tara]

I don't know about the seven days and progesterone. I do know that when I've accidentally experienced what I think are probably low blood sugars, that I don't recover quickly - the resulting stress cascades can affect me for 2-3 days.
I used to wake up in the night fairly often and need snacks to get back to sleep. These days I seldom do. I'm eating quite a bit of both sweet and starchy foods all through the day, but especially morning till early afternoon. The combination seems better for me at the moment than all sugar or all starch.
I don't know exactly what you would need - liver glycogen storage can vary a lot - but I do think it's worth trying to avoid significant blood sugar crashes.

 

[gilson dantas]

Yes @tara. I agree with you. And your experience is very interesting.
Before to sleep every day I use: OJ+salt+sugar+aspirin+some cheese. By day, I avoid stay more than 3 hours withou sugar [OJ or fruits - we have a variety of tropical and fresh fruits here]
Thanks

 

[Blossom]

I've never heard of low blood sugar interfering with progesterone utilization for seven days! If that's true it makes me wonder what the mechanism for causing that could possibly be? I wonder if @HDD or @aguilaroja might have any insight into that claim?
I do recall instinctively needing to eat every couple of hours when I first discovered Peat's work, was using fairly high doses of Progest-e and had recently added more carbohydrates to my diet. I've never gone completely starch free either primarily because I was really tired of being overly restrictive in my eating. Thanks for sharing the quote @gilson dantas.

 

[gilson dantas]

Yes @Blossom. Thanks!
The question is I´m using progesterone [20 mg/d; and pregnenolone 20mg/d] and I have some points to be cleared in my head. I´m reading all I can of R PEat [he quoted Katharina Dalton, so I readed that interview]. I´m a little bit confused with things like the best dose, the best way to use [generally speaking].
I do not know if it is best to began with high dose [something like 40 mg or more] for two weeks and then, when symptoms retreat, I lower the dose;
I do not know if I stay on a low dose of progesterone [20mg/d] , just waiting that the thyroid [NDT] have effect on temperature and pulse [both low in these days].
I do not know if progesterone will make desappear my sex drive.
Etc

 

[Blossom]

This link might answer some of your questions about progesterone and libido in men.
Progesterone And Libido

 

[gilson dantas]

@Blossom : Yes I knew that site last year [perhaps by the name of Wray White] before to know R Peat; I remember some quotation like that.
But there are two problems:
1 - The author of that quote invariably proposes that we use very high doses of progesterone [400 mg], almost for everything;
2 - And proposes too very high doses of vitamin D [to reach 140 ng of D in the blood!!]
So I'm not able to rely on their quote [little knowledge, perhaps, about the risks of vitamin D and who knows what else more;
otherwise, there are people, even in our forum, which say that progesterone, yes, can compromise libido; my current tendency is to think so.
dn´t you think it is reazonable [generally speaking]?

 

[Blossom]

dn´t you think it is reazonable [generally speaking]?

Yes.
ETA: 400 mg seems like a lot even for a woman. I've never read anything from Peat mentioning such high doses.
Have you searched 'Progesterone in Men' here to see if there is any discussion on libido effects?

 

[Tarmander]

Seven days? How on earth did the body figure out the exact weekly timing there...amazing

 

[PakPik]

I've never heard of low blood sugar interfering with progesterone utilization for seven days! If that's true it makes me wonder what the mechanism for causing that could possibly be?

I've never heard any explanation for the seven days figure. She does say in her Once a Month book: "Before starting progesterone treatment ... Ensure that the patient has maintained the Three-Hourly Starch Diet for at least one week". In the same book she explains that "progesterone receptors cannot transport or bind to, a molecule of progesterone if there has been a drop in blood sugar" and "progesterone receptors do not transport progesterone molecules into the nucleus of cells if adrenaline is present".

Maybe she has been misinterpreted and the seven day preparative for beginning progesterone therapy is just an approximate recommendation in order for patients to begin the therapy successfully, not an exact thing?

 

[Blossom]

I've never heard any explanation for the seven days figure. She does say in her Once a Month book: "Before starting progesterone treatment ... Ensure that the patient has maintained the Three-Hourly Starch Diet for at least one week". In the same book she explains that "progesterone receptor cannot transport or bind to, a molecule of progesterone if there has been a drop in blood sugar" and "progesterone receptor do not transport progesterone molecules into the nucleus of cells if adrenaline is present".

Maybe she has been misinterpreted and the seven day preparative for beginning progesterone therapy is just an approximate recommendation in order for patients to begin the therapy successfully, not an exact thing?

Thank you for the explanation @PakPik, that makes more sense.

 

[gilson dantas]

Perfect @PakPik; seems more reazonable.
Thanks.

 

[PakPik]

The author of that quote invariably proposes that we use very high doses of progesterone [400 mg], almost for everything

Creams are way less effective in terms of absorption than for example Progest-E, so I can see why Wray would talk about such high doses (the product she promotes is a cream). However, I think giving out such large doses of progesterone without taking into account a person's own context can be potentially detrimental. And many problems can NOT be solved by progesterone alone, since many problems are not necessarily due to a lack of progesterone or solved by a gigantic surplus of it. I recommend readings Peat's article "progesterone summaries", he has a good point of view.

 

[gilson dantas]

And yes, @Blossom, I´am searching here about progesterone and negative effects; it takes me many hours of reading [because you must to remember: I have to read R Peat more at the same time and make my notes; and I´m reading his papers some hours every day; Ray it´s a constant revolution on my way to think human physiology! I´m very excited with that]

 

[tara]

I do not know if progesterone will make desappear my sex drive.

I don't think anyone else will be able to tell you how much you can use before affecting your sex drive - variable per person. I think any anti-libido effects would likely wear off within a day or two after you stop/reduce the dose sufficiently.

 

[HDD]

Dalton does say that those starting progesterone therapy should follow her 3-hr starch diet and ideally a minimum of 7 days prior to treatment. This dietary recommendation is referring to progesterone therapy for the treatment of PMS.
From "Once a Month"-
"Unfortunately, those suffering from PMS need to eat every three hours. This is the reason for the Three-Hourly Starch Diet, which by itself will relieve many of the symptoms of PMS; without this diet, progesterone therapy is not effective."

I have not read anything from Peat about low blood sugar preventing progesterone from working for PMS.

"One of the things progesterone does is to stabilize blood sugar. In one experiment, hot flashes were found to be increased by lowering blood sugar, and decreased by moderately increasing blood sugar (Dormire and Reame, 2003)."
Hot flashes, energy, and aging

Ray Peat's diet recommendation when using progesterone.

"With a diet high in protein (e.g., at least 70-100 grams per day, including eggs) and vitamin A (not carotene), I have found that the dose of progesterone can be reduced each month. Using thyroid will usually reduce the amount of progesterone needed. Occasionally, a woman won't feel any effect even from 100 mg. of progesterone; I think this indicates that they need to use thyroid and diet, to normalize their estrogen, prolactin, and cortisol."
Progesterone Summaries - Progesterone Deceptions - Progesterone Supplementation - Dosage of Progesterone

 

[InChristAlone]

I completely agree with keeping blood sugar up, and starchy meals do that very well. If I'm having too many days of adrenaline like symptoms I try to way overdo the starchy and sweet carbs and that seems to really help the symptoms and them I dont even need progesterone I already have plenty coming from ovulation. The progesterone just helps the mood a bit. Also need to be careful you get plenty of salt and potassium with progesterone as it appears from studies that it increases aldosterone.

 

[gilson dantas]

@Janelle525, yes, make sense.

 

[Xisca]

"One of the things progesterone does is to stabilize blood sugar. In one experiment, hot flashes were found to be increased by lowering blood sugar, and decreased by moderately increasing blood sugar (Dormire and Reame, 2003)."
Hot flashes, energy, and aging

I have high sugar in my blood and I have hot flashes.
I never had PMS though I have low progesteron and seem to be estrogen dominant.

 

[Xisca]

That is so confusing to have some symptoms and not others, so it becomes more difficult to understand in what case/situation you are!!!!!
I am glad I did not have PMS, but why then.... The only things that I can identify about high estrogen was to have sensitive breasts some days just before periods. But overall I have very small breasts.

I am never more tan 3 hours without eating, and appart from bloating, well hot flashes go on at the moment....
I have found the interview of Dalton on the web, and nothing says more about how much starches she advocates for each snack...

And about no more than 10 hours without eating, then how can you at the same time eat only by day and eat before going to bed?