Ainaga

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If you take into consideration AGEs formation during cooking things look especially bad for butter, anything with fried eggs and cheeses.
There is controversial info on olive oil fresh or heated. According to charts it is high in AGEs. Not sure how heating affects it.
Oil, olive - 11,900 (AGE Content)
Oil, sunflower - 3,940
Oil, corn - 2,400
Oil, safflower - 3,020
High polyphenol level in olive oil may counteract AGEs effects.
I think coconut oil is ok for frying/baking since it may inhibit AGE formation. In this study : Saturated fatty acids, medium-chain triacylglycerols (MCTs), had a remarkable inhibitory effect on the amount of advanced glycation end products (AGEs) generated from the Maillard reaction in bread baking compared to unsaturated fatty acids.



The advanced glycation end product (AGE) in foods

AGE Content​

Food item​
AGEa kU/100g​
Serving size (g)​
AGE kU/serving​
Fats
Almonds, blanched slivered (Bazzini’s Nut Club, Bronx, NY)​
5,473​
30​
1,642​
Almonds, roasted​
6,650​
30​
1,995​
Avocado​
1,577​
30​
473​
Butter, whippedb​
26,480​
5​
1,324​
Butter, sweet cream, unsalted, whipped (Land O’Lakes, St Paul, MN)​
23,340​
5​
1,167​
Cashews, raw (Bazzini’s Nut Club)​
6,730​
30​
2,019​
Cashews, roasted​
9,807​
30​
2,942​
Chestnut, raw​
2,723​
30​
817​
Chestnut, roasted, in toaster oven 350°F for 27 min​
5,353​
30​
1,606​
Cream cheese, Philadelphia soft, (Kraft, Northfield, IL)​
10,883​
30​
3,265​
Cream cheese, Philadelphia original (Kraft)​
8,720​
30​
2,616​
Margarine, tub​
17,520​
5​
876​
Margarine, tub, I Can’t Believe it’s Not Butter (Unilever, Rotterdam, The Netherlands)​
9,920​
5​
496​
Margarine, tub, Smart Balance (CFA Brands, Heart Beat Foods, Paramus, NJ)​
6,220​
5​
311​
Margarine, tub, Take Control (Unilever Best Foods)​
4,000​
5​
200​
Mayonnaise​
9,400​
5​
470​
Mayonnaise, imitation (Diet Source, Novartis Nutriton Group, East Hanover, NJ)​
200​
5​
10​
Mayonnaise, low fat (Hellman’s, Unilever Best Foods)​
2,200​
5​
110​
Olive, ripe, large (5 g)​
1,670​
30​
501​
Peanut butter, smooth, Skippy (Unilever)​
7,517​
30​
2,255​
Peanuts, cocktail (Planters, Kraft)​
8,333​
30​
2,500​
Peanuts, dry roasted, unsalted (Planters, Kraft)​
6,447​
30​
1,934​
Peanuts, roasted in shell, salted (Frito-Lay, Plano, TX)​
3,440​
30​
1,032​
Pine nuts (pignolias), raw (Bazzini’s Nut Club)​
11,210​
30​
3,363​
Pistachios, salted (Frito Lay)​
380​
30​
114​
Pumpkin seeds, raw, hulled (House of Bazzini, Bronx, NY)​
1,853​
30​
556​
Soybeans, roasted and salted (House of Bazzini)​
1,670​
30​
501​
Sunflower seeds, raw, hulled (House of Bazzini)​
2,510​
30​
753​
Sunflower seeds, roasted and salted (House of Bazzini)​
4,693​
30​
1,408​
Tartar Sauce, creamy (Kraft)​
247​
15​
37​
Walnuts, roasted​
7,887​
30​
2,366​
AGE kU/100 mL
Serving size (mL)
AGE kU/serving

Fat, liquid
Cream, heavy, ultra-pasteurized (Farmland Dairies, Fairlawn, NJ)​
2,167​
15​
325​
Oil, canola​
9,020​
5​
451​
Oil, corn​
2,400​
5​
120​
Oil, cottonseed (The B Manischewitz Company, Cincinnati, OH)​
8,520​
5​
426​
Oil, diaglycerol, Enova (ADM Kao LLC, Decatur, IL)​
10,420​
5​
521​
Oil, olive​
11,900​
5​
595​
Oil, olive, extra virgin, first cold pressed (Colavita, Linden, NJ)​
10,040​
5​
502​
Oil, peanut (Planters)​
11,440​
5​
572​
Oil, safflower (The Hain Celestial Group, Inc, Melville, NY)​
3,020​
5​
151​
Oil, sesame (Asian Gourmet)​
21,680​
5​
1084​
Oil, sunflower (The Hain Celestial Group, Inc)​
3,940​
5​
197​
Salad dressing, blue cheese (Kraft)​
273​
15​
41​
Salad dressing, caesar (Kraft)​
740​
15​
111​
Salad dressing, French (H. J. Heinz Co, Pittsburgh, PA)​
113​
15​
17​
Salad dressing, French, lite, (Diet Source, Novartis Nutr Corp)​
0​
15​
0​
Salad dressing, Italian (Heinz)​
273​
15​
41​
Salad dressing, Italian, lite (Diet Source, Novartis Nutr Corp)​
0​
15​
0​
Salad dressing, thousand island (Kraft)​
187​
15​
28​

interesting about the coconut and the maillard reaction. it should be possible to observe by baking two loaves, one with coconut oil, the other with olive oil, and comparing the browning of the crust. but unlike most oils, coconut is colorless, which can skew the result.
that evoo debate has been going on for ages. i wonder why it’d be so difficult to settle once and for all.
 
OP
Apple

Apple

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interesting about the coconut and the maillard reaction. it should be possible to observe by baking two loaves, one with coconut oil, the other with olive oil, and comparing the browning of the crust. but unlike most oils, coconut is colorless, which can skew the result.
that evoo debate has been going on for ages. i wonder why it’d be so difficult to settle once and for all.
Well , I digged a bit more on bread baking with diffrent fats (Saturated and PUFAs) , here is another study from the same author (uploaded). Maillard reaction in bread baking is a good thing. :crazy:

They consider AGEs (brown pigments) as antioxidants (good) , they suppress lipid peroxides (bad) formation. So we actually want brown crust on bread.
From my expierence coconut oil delay browning though coconut oil is not the same as MCT oil they used. Not sure how this study can be applied to coconut oil, I guess it is not so good from this point of view.

RESULTS AND DISCUSSION:
in this study they measure Maillard reaction and changes in lipidperoxidation, respectively, induced up to 1 h of baking bread dough.

Saturated fatty acid: C8: 0, C12: 0, C16: 0 and C18
Products of the Maillard reaction have known antioxidant effects; thus, they suppress lipid peroxidation.
The higher the fatty acid carbon number, the greater the promotion of the Maillard reaction induction and the tendency toward suppression of lipid peroxidation induction.
1717790523624-png.62596


Unsaturated fatty acids: C18: 1, C18: 2, C20: 4 and C22: 6
An increase in the degree of unsaturation of added unsaturated fatty acids tended to increase the Maillard reaction induction while suppressing lipid peroxidation induction. In other words, there was a positive correlation between the degree of unsaturation and the amount of AGEs, and negative correlation for lipid peroxidation.


this is just for reference:
1717792083507-png.62599


1717796430855-png.62603
 

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Ainaga

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Well , I digged a bit more on bread baking with diffrent fats (Saturated and PUFAs) , here is another study from the same author (uploaded). Maillard reaction in bread baking is a good thing. :crazy:

They consider AGEs (brown pigments) as antioxidants (good) , they suppress lipid peroxides (bad) formation. So we actually want brown crust on bread.
From my expierence coconut oil delay browning though coconut oil is not the same as MCT oil they used. Not sure how this study can be applied to coconut oil, I guess it is not so good from this point of view.

RESULTS AND DISCUSSION:
in this study they measure Maillard reaction and changes in lipidperoxidation, respectively, induced up to 1 h of baking bread dough.

Saturated fatty acid: C8: 0, C12: 0, C16: 0 and C18
Products of the Maillard reaction have known antioxidant effects; thus, they suppress lipid peroxidation.
The higher the fatty acid carbon number, the greater the promotion of the Maillard reaction induction and the tendency toward suppression of lipid peroxidation induction.
1717790523624-png.62596


Unsaturated fatty acids: C18: 1, C18: 2, C20: 4 and C22: 6
An increase in the degree of unsaturation of added unsaturated fatty acids tended to increase the Maillard reaction induction while suppressing lipid peroxidation induction. In other words, there was a positive correlation between the degree of unsaturation and the amount of AGEs, and negative correlation for lipid peroxidation.


this is just for reference:
1717792083507-png.62599


1717796430855-png.62603
that's a really interesting study.
but i see a contradiction, or maybe i'm misreading. maybe you can help me. check this section out:

“Changes in the Maillard reaction and lipid peroxidation inductions during baking of dough with different added saturated fatty acids: Figure 1 and 2 show the effects of different saturated fatty acids on the Maillard reaction and changes in lipid peroxidation, respectively, induced up to 1 h of baking bread dough. An increase in the carbon number of the added saturated fatty acids tended to increase the Maillard reaction induction, while conversely suppressing lipid peroxidation induction.
Products of the Maillard reaction have known antioxidant effects; thus, they suppress lipid peroxidation (Nasrollahzadeh et al., 2017; Dong et al., 2012). Therefore, the following inferences can be made from the present findings. The lower the carbon number of the added saturated fatty acids, the greater the promotion of the Maillard reaction, leading to greater quantities of the products of this reaction (primarily melanoidins) and a more marked antioxidant effect in the form of decreased lipid peroxidation.”

the author first says 'and increase in the carbon number'; immediately after he says 'the lower the carbon number'. it's clear from what follows in their text though that the text in green must be wrong. they must mean 'the higher'.

the figure clearly shows that the higher the carbon number, the more brown the linoleic acid they are measuring (because that's what the study is measuring i understand, the peroxidation of linoleic acid. see Measurement of Hydroperoxide).

the result of the second part of the study is stunning.
figures 4 and 5 show that C22:6, an omega3 PUFA, had the least lipid peroxidation, and the greater browning, and figure 6 also shows 'to less saturation, greater browning (Maillard).
but then again a contradiction in their words.

“The greater the degree of unsaturation of the unsaturated fatty acids, the greater the tendency toward suppression of the Maillard reaction induction and promotion of lipid peroxidation induction.”
it should say the opposite: the greater the degree of SATURATION (meaning the more the UFA (mono- and pol-) was saturated, or the less it was unsaturated), the greater the tendency TO SUPPRESS THE MAILLARD REACTION and promotion of hydroperoxides. plus in figure 6 they write 'hydroperoxxide', which two exes. don't they have people editing this stuff? maybe because the authors are japanese, and english is not their first language. or correct me if i'm wrong.

in any case, now the question is what's that hidden mechanism that makes the maillard reaction greater with longer chains in saturated fatty acids, and greater in ufas when these are less saturated.

i also wonder how the addition of skim milk powder affects the whole thing, since that is not a necessary ingredient of bread. also, the maillard reaction happens largely on the crust. the crumb doesn't brown.

interesting to see also that 22:6 did better than 18:0, meaning DHA did better than stearic acid.
 
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Hidden49

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I've been using refined coconut oil to fry with and EVOO as a dressing for a while now and just eating eggs and oats as whole food PUFA. But I recently started going to this deli and getting a cooked bean or veg dish from there where they seem to use seed oils, well for some reason I feel a lot better eating their cooking than my own and it feels like its because the food contains a nutrient that I'm missing. My instinct is telling me it is the seed oil that is making me feel better and that I'm not extracting or getting the correct balance of PUFA from the oats and eggs I eat. It could also be the comibination of foods they use but my I'm leaning more towards being the oil. The only bad thing is despite feeling better I do end up getting some slight blood sugar issues from the oil they use when I eat regularly.

I also think too much saturated fat can cause neurological symptoms and in conditions like MS higher saturated fat intake is correlated with increased MS incidence and severity, and saturated fat is also said to increase endotoxin. If you are killing oxidation with low PUFA and saturated fat then you are lowering your immune system.
 
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Apple

Apple

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that's a really interesting study.
but i see a contradiction, or maybe i'm misreading. maybe you can help me. check this section out:

“Changes in the Maillard reaction and lipid peroxidation inductions during baking of dough with different added saturated fatty acids: Figure 1 and 2 show the effects of different saturated fatty acids on the Maillard reaction and changes in lipid peroxidation, respectively, induced up to 1 h of baking bread dough. An increase in the carbon number of the added saturated fatty acids tended to increase the Maillard reaction induction, while conversely suppressing lipid peroxidation induction.
Products of the Maillard reaction have known antioxidant effects; thus, they suppress lipid peroxidation (Nasrollahzadeh et al., 2017; Dong et al., 2012). Therefore, the following inferences can be made from the present findings. The lower the carbon number of the added saturated fatty acids, the greater the promotion of the Maillard reaction, leading to greater quantities of the products of this reaction (primarily melanoidins) and a more marked antioxidant effect in the form of decreased lipid peroxidation.”

the author first says 'and increase in the carbon number'; immediately after he says 'the lower the carbon number'. it's clear from what follows in their text though that the text in green must be wrong. they must mean 'the higher'.

the figure clearly shows that the higher the carbon number, the more brown the linoleic acid they are measuring (because that's what the study is measuring i understand, the peroxidation of linoleic acid. see Measurement of Hydroperoxide).

the result of the second part of the study is stunning.
figures 4 and 5 show that C22:6, an omega3 PUFA, had the least lipid peroxidation, and the greater browning, and figure 6 also shows 'to less saturation, greater browning (Maillard).
but then again a contradiction in their words.

“The greater the degree of unsaturation of the unsaturated fatty acids, the greater the tendency toward suppression of the Maillard reaction induction and promotion of lipid peroxidation induction.”
it should say the opposite: the greater the degree of SATURATION (meaning the more the UFA (mono- and pol-) was saturated, or the less it was unsaturated), the greater the tendency TO SUPPRESS THE MAILLARD REACTION and promotion of hydroperoxides. plus in figure 6 they write 'hydroperoxxide', which two exes. don't they have people editing this stuff? maybe because the authors are japanese, and english is not their first language. or correct me if i'm wrong.

in any case, now the question is what's that hidden mechanism that makes the maillard reaction greater with longer chains in saturated fatty acids, and greater in ufas when these are less saturated.

i also wonder how the addition of skim milk powder affects the whole thing, since that is not a necessary ingredient of bread. also, the maillard reaction happens largely on the crust. the crumb doesn't brown.

interesting to see also that 22:6 did better than 18:0, meaning DHA did better than stearic acid.
Yes, they screw on results in that particular study but to me it is obvious what they mean.
The longer saturated chain (higher carbon number), the more solid fat , lead to better crust.
For unsaturated oils: the more unsaturated bonds in oils, the more liquid oil , lead to better crust.
As for crumb, they only mention : It was also confirmed that the air pore distribution in baked bread was closely related to AGEs. When MCT were added, the number of pores was after found to be significantly smaller than other samples.

The main idea is that AGEs are not always undesirable thing. In case of bread baking , AGEs are antioxidants and suppress peroxidation.
We can draw an analogy with coffee. According to some sources (Ray Peat), the darker roast coffee contains more melanoidins (antioxidant and anti-inflammatory), shows higher antioxidant activity, contains more niacin (4x) and less acrylamide.

also this maybe relevant:
Ray Peat - When meat is grilled at a high temperature, the normally spaced double bonds in PUFA migrate towards each other, becoming more stable, so that linoleic acid is turned into “conjugated linoleic acid.” This analog of the “essential” linoleic acid competes against the linoleic acid in tissues, and protects against cancer, atherosclerosis, inflammation and other effects of the normal PUFA. Presumably, anything which interferes with the essential fatty acids is protective, when the organism contains dangerous amounts of PUFA. Even the trans-isomers of the unsaturated fatty acids (found in butterfat, and convertible into conjugated linoleic acid) can be protective against cancer.
 
Last edited:

Ainaga

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Yes, they screw on results in that particular study but to me it is obvious what they mean.
The longer saturated chain (higher carbon number), the more solid fat , lead to better crust.
For unsaturated oils: the more unsaturated bonds in oils, the more liquid oil , lead to better crust.
As for crumb, they only mention : It was also confirmed that the air pore distribution in baked bread was closely related to AGEs. When MCT were added, the number of pores was after found to be significantly smaller than other samples.

The main idea is that AGEs are not always undesirable thing. In case of bread baking , AGEs are antioxidants and suppress peroxidation.
We can draw an analogy with coffee. According to some sources (Ray Peat), the darker roast coffee contains more melanoidins (antioxidant and anti-inflammatory), shows higher antioxidant activity, contains more niacin (4x) and less acrylamide.

also this maybe relevant:
Ray Peat - When meat is grilled at a high temperature, the normally spaced double bonds in PUFA migrate towards each other, becoming more stable, so that linoleic acid is turned into “conjugated linoleic acid.” This analog of the “essential” linoleic acid competes against the linoleic acid in tissues, and protects against cancer, atherosclerosis, inflammation and other effects of the normal PUFA. Presumably, anything which interferes with the essential fatty acids is protective, when the organism contains dangerous amounts of PUFA. Even the trans-isomers of the unsaturated fatty acids (found in butterfat, and convertible into conjugated linoleic acid) can be protective against cancer.
yes. the results they wish to communicate are clear. but what exactly are these 'advanced glycation end products' and how precisely and mechanically are they interacting with the fatty acids. is it one or different mechanisms with sfa vs pufa vs mufa that produced these similar results?
that is the first time i see the term 'conjugated linoleic acid' in this context. it makes total sense, it is suggestive of the mechanism, or rather helps you understand why they'd call it 'conjugated'.
as a baker, this is all very interesting to me apple.
but there must be a moment when browning turns to carbonization and begins to produce an array of undesirable results. i even wonder if the blacking is an extension or continuation of the browning, or a totally different phenomenon altogether. it'd be interesting to find a study that looks at this, hones in on this very moment when things get too black. you seem to be good at finding studies.
maybe the action of activated charcoal can have some relationship with all this.
this all said, bakers will like a crust that may look over baked to a non-baker.
i remember travis saying somewhere and somehow that toasting bread was akin to smoking, as a way somehow to justify his own smoking. he basically said that people who riled against smoking were sinning equally when eating burnt bread. i believe he was wrong in many ways to compare these two things.
 
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Apple

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yes. the results they wish to communicate are clear. but what exactly are these 'advanced glycation end products' and how precisely and mechanically are they interacting with the fatty acids. is it one or different mechanisms with sfa vs pufa vs mufa that produced these similar results?
that is the first time i see the term 'conjugated linoleic acid' in this context. it makes total sense, it is suggestive of the mechanism, or rather helps you understand why they'd call it 'conjugated'.
as a baker, this is all very interesting to me apple.
but there must be a moment when browning turns to carbonization and begins to produce an array of undesirable results. i even wonder if the blacking is an extension or continuation of the browning, or a totally different phenomenon altogether. it'd be interesting to find a study that looks at this, hones in on this very moment when things get too black. you seem to be good at finding studies.
maybe the action of activated charcoal can have some relationship with all this.
this all said, bakers will like a crust that may look over baked to a non-baker.
i remember travis saying somewhere and somehow that toasting bread was akin to smoking, as a way somehow to justify his own smoking. he basically said that people who riled against smoking were sinning equally when eating burnt bread. i believe he was wrong in many ways to compare these two things.
The topic of AGEs and ALEs is relatively new and not properly explored.
You can find some usefull information in DIETARY AGEs AND THEIR ROLE IN HEALTH AND DISEASE, by Jamie Uribarri.

in fact you can make bread just by steaming like the chinese do .
 
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Fenrir67

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I don't recomment her "detox diet" because its outrageously high in Nickel a major carcinogenic heavy metal and pertubator of testosterone synthesis. Before tackling coffee she should start by opening her mind and not just focusing on the soluble fiber of her beloved beans... She certainly participates in their anti-fertility agenda.
 

Peater

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I don't recomment her "detox diet" because its outrageously high in Nickel a major carcinogenic heavy metal and pertubator of testosterone synthesis. Before tackling coffee she should start by opening her mind and not just focusing on the soluble fiber of her beloved beans... She certainly participates in their anti-fertility agenda.
I'm not familiar with the diet - is the nickel from the beans?
 

Ainaga

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The topic of AGEs and ALEs is relatively new and not properly explored.
You can find some usefull information in DIETARY AGEs AND THEIR ROLE IN HEALTH AND DISEASE, by Jamie Uribarri.

in fact you can make bread just by steaming like the chinese do .
yes, i make and like mantou, i've lived in china.
but there is no maillard reaction in mantou, or scarcely.
the gist of all this is that AGEs, contrary to prevalent thinking, is actually beneficial.
i'll follow the links and read up on the subject, thank you.
 
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Apple

Apple

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yes, i make and like mantou, i've lived in china.
but there is no maillard reaction in mantou, or scarcely.
the gist of all this is that AGEs, contrary to prevalent thinking, is actually beneficial.
i'll follow the links and read up on the subject, thank you.
I don't really suggest that AGEs are beneficial , but in some cases they are... in reasonable amount.
The best bet is whole and minimally processed foods, with lowest temperature and minimum heating time
In most animal studies , health span increased, in mice fed a diet that is restricted in the content of AGEs
 

Ainaga

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I don't really suggest that AGEs are beneficial , but in some cases they are... in reasonable amount.
The best bet is whole and minimally processed foods, with lowest temperature and minimum heating time
In most animal studies , health span increased, in mice fed a diet that is restricted in the content of AGEs
then logically if AGEs are to be avoided because theyre bad, lipid peroxidation is either not as bad as assumed (because AGE's reduce lipid peroxidation) or AGEs are even worse for you than lipid peroxidation. but like you say, a reasonable amount. the fact that they make food taste better in moderation is a plus
 
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Apple

Apple

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then logically if AGEs are to be avoided because theyre bad, lipid peroxidation is either not as bad as assumed (because AGE's reduce lipid peroxidation) or AGEs are even worse for you than lipid peroxidation. but like you say, a reasonable amount. the fact that they make food taste better in moderation is a plus
It is not so straightforward.
Maillard reaction produces different kinds of AGEs which may have positive or negative health effects. Some of them, like melanoidins (in bread crust or coffee), exhibit antioxidant and antimicrobial properties. Heating also produces ALEs (lipid peroxidation products). Lipids and carbohydrates are competing, Maillard reaction and lipid peroxidation happen simultaneously.

From my observations, just replacing bread with cooked rice (to a lesser degree cooked pasta) already leads to eliminating acne and better energy , just feeling healthier, and the other way around.
Looking at people in pizza restaurants/bakeries I haven't seen any healthy looking person, including sales people and bakers, apart from too young people .
Maybe you have a different expierence and observations. Feel free to share.

I think baking bread in Dr Esselstyn style (vegan and with no oils) is a safer option after all.
 
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Aleksandr

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interesting she talks about fats, either eating nuts or having the nut oils.

i looked up peanut butter, and that seems to be free of vitamin A.

she says the fats are pro-hormone and the fibre is like anti-hormone, except i guess that the fibre takes the toxic bile sludge out and the new fats replace it.

i was thinking how is the liver going to keep pushing fresh bile out if it doesn't have enough fats? maybe it would help get the A out of the liver by taking fats.

she says to take the fats 90 minutes apart from the fibre.

thoughts? @charlie @DanDare
 

Ainaga

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It is not so straightforward.
Maillard reaction produces different kinds of AGEs which may have positive or negative health effects. Some of them, like melanoidins (in bread crust or coffee), exhibit antioxidant and antimicrobial properties. Heating also produces ALEs (lipid peroxidation products). Lipids and carbohydrates are competing, Maillard reaction and lipid peroxidation happen simultaneously.

From my observations, just replacing bread with cooked rice (to a lesser degree cooked pasta) already leads to eliminating acne and better energy , just feeling healthier, and the other way around.
Looking at people in pizza restaurants/bakeries I haven't seen any healthy looking person, including sales people and bakers, apart from too young people .
Maybe you have a different expierence and observations. Feel free to share.

I think baking bread in Dr Esselstyn style (vegan and with no oils) is a safer option after all.
the vast majority of pizza joints and bakeries use horrible ingredients, from the flour, to the water, to the cheese, and everything in between. just one example, the mozzarella used is a cheese product with added palm oil to increase the fat content of a cheese originally made with high fat buffalo milk. but the list goes interminably. the lack of quality ingredients applies to all the industry and all restaurants in general, with some exceptions. eat at home, and shop smartly. spend money on organic food, rather than a subscription to netflix and spotify, and whatnot. if you have kids, don't spend on toys, build them yourself. get them into books rather than pads. it's all related. it's called economy, literally managing a household.

although some traditional breads are so-called “enriched” with oil (usually either butter or olive oil), sugar, eggs, etc., in general bread is vegan and contains only three ingredients, flour, water, salt. if you do not use a levain, then a fourth ingredient too: yeast. i would not call that “dr. esselstyn style”. he deserves no credit for that. that knowledge can be accredited to our ancestors, the world over. yes, even china: you mentioned 馒头 (man-tou). and bread is like cheese. from the very same ingredients you produce a nearly boundless array of possibility. and when i say bread, i strictly mean breads made from gluten containing grains, which of course means more than just wheat, but excludes things like bean or nut or paleo breads that contain no grain. that's just me keeping my field clean. not that i don't like beans and nuts, i just like to call things by their name.

and now to AGES.

“The currently accepted definition of melanoidins is the brown colored nitrogen-containing high molecular weight material formed as end products of the Maillard reaction. The brown color development of foods as a result of their thermal processing is largely due to the formation of melanoidins. Despite their abundance and importance in the diet, melanoidins are still the most enigmatic food macromolecule today, as their chemical structure is still largely unknown, being highly dependent of the food chemical composition (simple sugars/polysaccharides, protein/peptides/amino acids, phenolic compounds, etc.)”

“Advanced glycation end products (AGEs) and the Maillard reaction​

The final products resulting from a non-enzymatic glycation reaction (the Maillard reaction) of proteins by reducing sugars are collectively referred to as AGEs.

(this definition doesn't include lipids, though i see other definitions that do. on the diagram at the bottom the lipids seem to enter the picture AFTER glycation, which is where i think our discussion with relation to some AGEs beneficially preventing lipid peroxidation enters. correct me if i'm wrong).

The Maillard reaction consists of a reversible initial reaction and irreversible middle and late reactions. In the initial reaction, the carbonyl group of the reducing sugar, such as glucose, reacts with the amino group of a protein to form a Schiff group, and the imine double bond is transferred to form Amadori compounds. In the subsequent intermediate reaction, the amino acid group is removed from the Amadori compounds by dehydration to form α-dicarbonyl compounds. This is followed by a late-stage reaction where AGEs are generated from α-dicarbonyl compounds, while melanoidin, a brown substance, is simultaneously produced. Interestingly, the brown colour of cooked foods, soy sauce and miso is also the result of the Maillard reaction.

(how is the initial reaction reversible, and isn't this where our attention should be?)

interesting also this orange section, because the soy beans in miso and in soy, and the brown rice in miso, are only boiled, so the rearrangement and agglutination happens without the sort of dry heat we associate with ages.


“Major AGEs reported to be present in the living body include fluorescent and cross-linked pentosidines, nonfluorescent and cross-linked methylglyoxal lysine dimers, nonfluorescent and non-crosslinked carboxymethyllysines (CML) and pyralines. Research on AGEs is advanced in the skin, diabetes, the brain and respiratory organs. For example, collagen, which is the main extracellular matrix component of the skin, loses extensibility due to progression of glycation with age, resulting in the formation of wrinkles and sagging of skin. Collagen that becomes an AGE is known to generate reactive oxygen species (ROS) that cause bone cell death and bone density reduction. Furthermore, specimens obtained from patients with idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis show that there is an increase in the amount of AGEs, leading to its subsequent accumulation in the extracellular matrix and in alveolar epithelial cells on the luminal side of alveoli.

“Melanoidins induced IFN-gamma and IL-12 expression in spleen cells exposed to allergen and in macrophages, respectively. These findings suggest that melanoidins have a suppressive effect on allergic reaction as a novel physiological effect. On the other hand, we identified a glyceraldehyde-derived advanced glycation end product (AGE) formed from glyceraldehyde and N-acetylarginine as well as glyceraldehyde-derived pyridinium (GLAP) in physiological conditions. The AGE was identified as 5-methylimidazoline-4-one (MG-H1), which has been reported to be formed from arginine and methylglyoxal. GLAP, which induced reactive oxygen species (ROS) production in HL-60 cells, is supposed to be a toxic AGE, while MG-H1 is a nontoxic AGE.”

“In the 21st century, 107 years after the first description of the Maillard reaction by the French chemist Louis Camille Maillard, there are still no clear answers to the following questions: what is the exact chemical structure of food melanoidins, and what is the mechanism of their formation?”

“Melanoidins with higher average MW after the enzymatic hydrolysis and darker colors were observed in the products produced at
higher pH. A heterogeneous and complex composition of the melanoidins was observed even though structurally related. Results from 1H NMR showed a higher degree of aromaticity at higher pH values.” aromaticity. think benzene.

I find it likely that we can detect this higher ph as bitterness, and gauge its value, which is why we reject charred food. i mean, we can tell the difference between a dark roast and charcoaled beans, between seared stake and burnt steak.

from what i've stumbled upon so far, only the melanoidins show promising effects, but it seems like, as you say, this area of research is still in baby steps. i think that traditional cuisines are treasure troves of knowledge, and we do well to learn and imitate how food was processed by our ancestors. before the industrial age, that is.

this is an instructive little graph. it makes it seem however that all paths lead inevitably to doom. next on the to do list, compare dold, cel, mold, cml, etc.


1718219308010.png
 
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Apple

Apple

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@Ainaga ,
I couldn't have said it better. Thanks for your opinion on this topic.
I was convinced for some reason that olive oil is not suitable for baking, it is actually a good option.
I will still reserve coconut oil for baking potatoes though.
Mozzarella with added palm oil sounds horrible, I might've stumbled upon it couple times, I will be on the lookout.
 

DanDare

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interesting she talks about fats, either eating nuts or having the nut oils.

i looked up peanut butter, and that seems to be free of vitamin A.

she says the fats are pro-hormone and the fibre is like anti-hormone, except i guess that the fibre takes the toxic bile sludge out and the new fats replace it.

i was thinking how is the liver going to keep pushing fresh bile out if it doesn't have enough fats? maybe it would help get the A out of the liver by taking fats.

she says to take the fats 90 minutes apart from the fibre.

thoughts? @charlie @DanDare


What you mention here are finer points which I was attempting to get answers to early on in the process, and unfortunately was left with only theoretical possibilities, no certainties. Because it is a poorly experimentally studied area. Lot of people have theories however. And I am not familiar with Karen's yet though will try and find more.


So like do we eat high fat, stimulate our toxic bile release, and eat that with a lot of fibre to try and get rid of it?. or do we separate fat and fibre, and eat fibre on its own? Or something else?

The hormones thing added in makes it even more complicated .

I found a study which showed people released bile JUST from drinking water, but they didn't have gall bladders. And another study carefully detailing every constituent of bile, down to the hormones.

Basically it was a bit of a weak area of research.

What I do know is bile is 95% water, or more, and less than 1% fat... We don't need fat to produce or release it , certainly not if we are eating plenty protein.

So ultimately we are reliant on people accurately reporting what they are doing, and how, and what results they had, then personally trying to apply it to ourselves and learning from trial and error, not being too quick to form conclusions based our first assumption.

I for example I am eating fruit on its own, before a meal, never after. Then a meal looks like: 5% beef steak mince and beans eaten together.... Then white or brown rice parboiled and water discarded to remove arsenic. I am doing this because I get minimal wind or bloat.

I don't get bored of this and it's just a start while I figure out recipes and safe additives, as I also have a sensitivity to headaches to deal with.

Different beans add variety. Pinto, black eye, black, kidney, white kidney etc..

Surprisingly now i can maintain my weight with just the low fat beef and rice.... 600g beef, approx 500g rice ( dry weight before cooking) , along with some fruit, is all it takes spread out into 3 meals a day.
 
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Hidden49

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I would like to see what Karens response is about PUFA causing hypoxia and lowering the metabolic rate and saturated fat doing the opposite. Is she even aware of this information? Probably not.
 

Ainaga

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@Ainaga ,
I couldn't have said it better. Thanks for your opinion on this topic.
I was convinced for some reason that olive oil is not suitable for baking, it is actually a good option.
I will still reserve coconut oil for baking potatoes though.
Mozzarella with added palm oil sounds horrible, I might've stumbled upon it couple times, I will be on the lookout.
my pleasure, @Apple. likewise on my part here.
 
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