K2 Mk4 Or Mk7?

Travis

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I just read some studies on vitamin K. It's more surprising than you might think:

Back in the 1960's, it was found that phylloquinone could convert into MK-4 in birds. This was speculated to be a consequence of intestinal bacteria. It was also found out with a radioactive ¹⁴C-labeled phytyl chain that the entire original "tail" was removed in this process.

To test if bacteria was actually responsible for the vitamin K₁ ⇨ K₂ conversion, studies were undertaken with sterilized, germ-free rats:
The MK-4 tissue distribution pattern after phylloquinone intake was comparable with that found after menadione intake.
vitamin k.png
vitamin k2.png

There is a break in the ordinate in the second graph.

Notice the similar distribution (hatched bars). The same dose of phylloquinone produces essentially the same tissue concentrations as an equivalent dose of menadione, the vitamin K "head". Vitamin K₁ has the same capacity to produce MK-4 as menadione. This also proves that bacteria are not involved.

So what about people?

Doses of phylloquinone were given to humans while the menadione levels in their urine was measured. Menadione is just the "head" of the molecule and lacks any tail whatsoever.
In summary, the present study shows that menadione is a product of vitamin K catabolism, both of phylloquinone as well as menaquinones.
The results were nearly identical. They also measured intravenously-administered phylloquinone with no results, so the "tail" must be cleaved-off in the intestines while the menaquinone "head" then travels throughout the body. They then measured the ability of certain cell lines to turn menadinone into MK-4:
vitamink4.png

The hepatic and pancreatic cells were most efficient at making the conversion, followed by kidney and muscle cells.

And like Masterjohn mentioned, the gene that isoprenylates the menadione to form MK-4 has been determined. To find it, these researchers looked for similarities to other known enzymes responsible for doing this in bacteria. You would also expect similarities to the enzyme that makes coenzyme Q₁₀...

They proved that this was the specific gene by measuring the synthesis rates in the presence, and absence, of a small interfering piece of RNA. The interfering RNA matches the mRNA that produces the enzyme, hybridizes with it, and permanently inactivates it.
Stealth siRNA siCOQ2 is a 25-bp duplex oligoribonucleotide with a sense strand corresponding to nucleotides 1016–1040 of the reported human COQ2 mRNA sequence.
vitamink5.png

You can see MK-4 synthesis in the cell without the small interfering RNA sequence for the putative vitamin MK-4 gene (UBIAD1). In the presence of the siRNA, the synthesis stops. Mismatching siRNA strands had no effect. The one on the right is for the mRNA encoding the coenzyme Q prenyltransferase (COQ2) enzyme, proving that the CoQ₁₀-producing enzyme is not responsible despite their similarities.

It's official. We can make the coveted K₁ ⇨ K₂ conversion.

Based on these studies, I get the impression that vitamin K₁ is sufficiently effective at producing MK-4. The menadione head appears to be split-off during digestion and then transfers inside the liver, pancreas, and blood vessel cells to become MK-4.


Ronden, Jacintha E., et al. "Intestinal flora is not an intermediate in the phylloquinone-menaquinone-4 conversion in the rat." Biochimica et Biophysica Acta (BBA)-General Subjects 1379.1 (1998): 69-75.
Thijssen, Henk HW, et al. "Menadione is a metabolite of oral vitamin K." British journal of nutrition 95.2 (2006): 260-266.
Nakagawa, Kimie, et al. "Identification of UBIAD1 as a novel human menaquinone-4 biosynthetic enzyme." Nature 468.7320 (2010): 117.
 
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Frankdee20

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  • MK-4 is taken up by our tissues very rapidly after we consume it. While it hasn’t been studied as carefully as MK-7, it may be less effective than MK-7 at reaching liver and bone but more effective at reaching most other tissues. This would make it better at protecting those tissues from calcium deposits and cancer development and supporting sex hormone production through its direct actions within our sex organs.

Basically wanted to know if I should just buy the K Complex from Life Extension. Minimal excipients, MK 4 based, but has K1, and some K7.
 

lvysaur

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Basically wanted to know if I should just buy the K Complex from Life Extension. Minimal excipients, MK 4 based, but has K1, and some K7.

my experience with it is good, I take it once weekly.

I've always felt like it had more "staying power"; mk-4 alone gives me an immediate wave of relaxation, but can "wear off".
 

Frankdee20

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Thanks, this will help me increase Aspirin, and D2/3
 
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Basically wanted to know if I should just buy the K Complex from Life Extension. Minimal excipients, MK 4 based, but has K1, and some K7.
That's all I use and I love it. Only K I've tried that really feels like it's thickening my blood.
 
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my experience with it is good, I take it once weekly.

I've always felt like it had more "staying power"; mk-4 alone gives me an immediate wave of relaxation, but can "wear off".


hi how can i know if i need this to take daily, every other or like you once a week.... what do i need to check or feel to get proper dosage?
 

Frankdee20

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hi how can i know if i need this to take daily, every other or like you once a week.... what do i need to check or feel to get proper dosage?

That's a good question, and wondered myself. Since I did start a Vitamin D regimen, and love Aspirin, and was taking E also, figured I'd sneak in the K somehow. Other than logic, I'd have no clue how to discern, other than faint signs of blood on my toilet paper. Lol, but that may not be an indication of internal bleeding, just that I take John Wayne size dumps.
 

Frankdee20

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It's generally 1MG of K for every standard Aspirin, according to Peat citations. Idk.
 
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thanks @Frankdee20

im not taking aspirin.... i did asko because its not the first time i read someone taking k2 only once a week..... so want to figure out how is that enough...
 

warcun

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Does anyone on this thread have "objective", test supported data to document their use of MK7 at a specific dosage and duration and its effect on CAC (coronary artery calcium) scores? There are studies that have been conducted in the Netherlands on post menopausal women and some on lab rats, but I can not find any completed studies which include men over 55 years of age. One MK7 study currently underway will not end for another year and they do not disclose any data captured until the study is complete. Menaquinone-7 Supplementation to Reduce Vascular Calcification in Patients with Coronary Artery Disease: Rationale and Study Protocol (VitaK-CAC Trial)

I am not seeking anecdotal information -- only scientifically supported changes such as comparative CAC scores individuals may have initiated.
 

Amazoniac

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My humble advice would be to not touch mk7. I don't know how that poison is even legal. I have seen friends jumping on it because "muh fermentation" and "muh natural k2 not like mk4" just to get blood work done and having some really scaring parameters along with arrhythmias. There are some really worrying reviews in the Amazon's best selling Vitamin D book about mk7.
Thanks. If you happen to come across those again, could you please share them?
 

Arrade

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So we still don't know which is better..
I think I'll stick with Life Extension K plus Mk7
 

Arrade

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I could post more links but after reading a lot, I’ve come to some conclusions:

Mk4 really helps with osteoporosis, increasing test, and gene expression of bones (widening of jaw)
However it does nothing for artery calcification:
Impact of menaquinone-4 supplementation on coronary artery calcification and arterial stiffness: an open label single arm study

Mk7 is the form that actually reverses artery calcification
https://www.nutraceuticalbusinessre...nd_treatment_of_arterial_calcification/123944


Vitamin K2 may reverse calcification of blood vessels in people with kidney disease
 
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Braveheart

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I could post more links but after reading a lot, I’ve come to some conclusions:

Mk4 really helps with osteoporosis, increasing test, and gene expression of bones (widening of jaw)
However it does nothing for artery calcification:
Impact of menaquinone-4 supplementation on coronary artery calcification and arterial stiffness: an open label single arm study

Mk7 is the form that actually reverses artery calcification
https://www.nutraceuticalbusinessre...nd_treatment_of_arterial_calcification/123944


Vitamin K2 may reverse calcification of blood vessels in people with kidney disease

As Haidut says earlier in this thread..."The large scale clinical trials are mostly with MK-4. The Japanese also have access to MK-7 and can produce it a lot more cheaply than MK-4 by using nato. Yet, they still went with MK-4. Most of the MK-7 trials so far are sponsored by either cheese or nato industry groups. There is notable lack of studies comparing MK-7 and MK-4. Probably because MK-4 will be found superior or at least as good as MK-7. The trials so far on MK-7 focus on comparisons with K1, which we know is inferior to the menaquinones. MK-4 is also the form used by the humans for functions such as electron transport carrier and co-factor for the carboxylation of osteocalcin. MK-7 is at best a surrogate for MK-4."
 
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Braveheart

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I do take Super K, once orally per week... 5 days topical Kuinone MK4...
 

Arrade

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As Haidut says earlier in this thread..."The large scale clinical trials are mostly with MK-4. The Japanese also have access to MK-7 and can produce it a lot more cheaply than MK-4 by using nato. Yet, they still went with MK-4. Most of the MK-7 trials so far are sponsored by either cheese or nato industry groups. There is notable lack of studies comparing MK-7 and MK-4. Probably because MK-4 will be found superior or at least as good as MK-7. The trials so far on MK-7 focus on comparisons with K1, which we know is inferior to the menaquinones. MK-4 is also the form used by the humans for functions such as electron transport carrier and co-factor for the carboxylation of osteocalcin. MK-7 is at best a surrogate for MK-4."
There is a study coming out late 2018 where Mk7 is used:
Menaquinone-7 Supplementation to Reduce Vascular Calcification in Patients with Coronary Artery Disease: Rationale and Study Protocol (VitaK-CAC Trial)

Here is a quote from Amazoniac posting a large study:
"long-term intake of menaquinones (notably the long-chain ones) is inversely correlated with arterial calcification, whereas for K1 intake the effect was much weaker [31]."

The study I posted earlier showed an increase in Coronary Calcification (in humans!) with a year of using 45mg mk4.
 
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Arrade

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As Haidut says earlier in this thread..."The large scale clinical trials are mostly with MK-4. The Japanese also have access to MK-7 and can produce it a lot more cheaply than MK-4 by using nato. Yet, they still went with MK-4. Most of the MK-7 trials so far are sponsored by either cheese or nato industry groups. There is notable lack of studies comparing MK-7 and MK-4. Probably because MK-4 will be found superior or at least as good as MK-7. The trials so far on MK-7 focus on comparisons with K1, which we know is inferior to the menaquinones. MK-4 is also the form used by the humans for functions such as electron transport carrier and co-factor for the carboxylation of osteocalcin. MK-7 is at best a surrogate for MK-4."
Maybe the japanese did studies on Mk4 and not mk7 because they have very low instances of heart problems: Why Japanese Men Have Far Less Heart Disease – The Mission – Medium
The Japanese are the ones who eat natto, they would'nt need mk7 supplements:
The average intake of Vitamin K2 in Japan is 230 mcg per day. https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jnsv/53/6/53_6_464/_pdf
"Mk-7 from pulses(including fermented soybead foods) were the major contributors to total vitamin K.

The reason people don't see results from mk7 is that the average dose is 90 mcg but 200 is needed:
Only after supplementation with >1 mg/day of vitamin K1 or 200 µg/day of MK-7 extrahepatic Gla-protein carboxylation was near to completeness. Vitamin K: the effect on health beyond coagulation – an overview

Here is a study where mk7 was used to reduce arterial stiffness: Vitamin K2 supplementation and arterial stiffness among renal transplant recipients-a single-arm, single-center clinical trial. - PubMed - NCBI

Here's another one about calcification: "Daily 360 μg of menaquinone-7, given for 4 weeks, effectively reduces dp-ucMGP in this population"
It showed mk7 reversing calcification in 98% of the participants after 4 weeks administration
High Dephosphorylated-Uncarboxylated MGP in Hemodialysis patients: risk factors and response to vitamin K2, A pre-post intervention clinical trial

I would like to see an mk7 vs mk4 experiment, it is obviously needed.
As it stands, I still see mk7 being the better supplement for heart health.
 
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