K2 And/or CoQ10 Causing Severe Heart Palps

[tom94]

Hi guys - This is my first post on the forum. I have been following information on here for a while and I'm very grateful for the insight shared which has helped me a lot.

So, recently upon doing a lot of digging and research I decided to purchase Thorne K2. Why? I was drinking about 2-3 litres of raw milk a day and it made a lot of sense to me to incorporate more k2 so that my body was able to better cope with the increased amount of calcium.

However, surprisingly on the first day of taking a couple of drops, it caused me to have horrendous heart palpitations which intermittently persisted for 4-5 days. I gave myself atrial fibrillation about 5 years ago and nearly started to begin to feel like that again!

Interestingly, upon doing some digging around on here it sounds like this can be a common symptom which other people have been getting on here from taking k2, as well (I wonder why us and not other people).

However, something else to be mindful of is that at the same time as i started to take the k2, I also ate some ox heart as well (which as we know is full of CoQ10).

Vitamin K2 in Electron Transport System: Are Enzymes Involved in Vitamin K2 Biosynthesis Promising Drug Targets?
(Vitamin K2 in Electron Transport System: Are Enzymes Involved in Vitamin K2 Biosynthesis Promising Drug Targets?)

As per the study above and from information shared by others on here on another thread, it sounds like both K2 and CoQ10 can impact the heart's electron transport system and therefore lead to side effects such as heart palpitations in some individuals.

Therefore, I have a couple of points that I would love for you to help me understand a little bit more on:

• Could I have just taken too much? (maybe I need to aim for mcg rather than mg)
• Would I potentially tolerate MK7 or Menatetrenone better than MK4 (found in Thorne k2)
• Was it the Coq10 from the Ox Heart & K2 combination which may have overwhelmed things, and maybe individually I would be okay
• OR..should I avoid both completely and try some alternative (but what would that be?)

Instinctively I feel like it may be a combination of all 3 of those first points but i'd love to hear anyone else's view or perspective on the outcomes that i experienced!

Thanks guys.

 

[Blue Water]

I never had this but maybe it's due to hypocalcemia?

Take some calcium and maybe see if it improves.

 

[not_James_Bond]

Reduce the dose to mcg or have a read of this;
Arrhythmia from vitamin K? : Supplements (reddit.com)

Are you taking Magnesium?, if not you should be 375-400mg, I use Mag Oxide but always with main meal, it has the most bang for buck IMO, without food it can be a laxative.

 

[japanesedude]

I get pressure in my heart If I take too much Calcium. 5000IU D3 + 1.7g Calcium Carbonate(600mg Calcium) daily is ok for me.

 

[xeliex]

Without at least 1.5 grams of calcium per day and active supplementation of vitamin D, vitamin K2 consistently induces heart palpitations.

 

[Motorneuron]

Without at least 1.5 grams of calcium per day and active supplementation of vitamin D, vitamin K2 consistently induces heart palpitations.

Seems a lot in common with me, despite having high blood calcium... definitely need more calcium and/or magnesium

 

[xeliex]

Seems a lot in common with me, despite having high blood calcium... definitely need more calcium and/or magnesium

Right, my calcium is always in the 9-10.1 mg/dL range as well. The smallest K2 dose triggers palps. I even checked ionized calcium and it was fine.

I have been trying to test if aspirin improves tolerance, but I don't think it is.

 

[Motorneuron]

Right, my calcium is always in the 9-10.1 mg/dL range as well. The smallest K2 dose triggers palps. I even checked ionized calcium and it was fine.

I have been trying to test if aspirin improves tolerance, but I don't think it is.

Do you also have insomnia? What dosages of K2 are you referring to? so do you suggest that amount of calcium when taking K2? it has a long half-life if i'm not mistaken.

 

[xeliex]

Do you also have insomnia? What dosages of K2 are you referring to? so do you suggest that amount of calcium when taking K2? it has a long half-life if i'm not mistaken.

I sleep well mostly if I eat a decent dinner.

I can't give a number for the dosage now, but tried many versions, with or without vitamin D and a couple of drops instead of a full dose.

Now, with higher calcium, I tolerate it fine but I haven't found a trustworthy eggshell source and I think the high phosphorus intake from dairy is elevating my PTH despite the neutral calcium to phosphorus ratio that dairy...

 

[Motorneuron]

I sleep well mostly if I eat a decent dinner.

I can't give a number for the dosage now, but tried many versions, with or without vitamin D and a couple of drops instead of a full dose.

Now, with higher calcium, I tolerate it fine but I haven't found a trustworthy eggshell source and I think the high phosphorus intake from dairy is elevating my PTH despite the neutral calcium to phosphorus ratio that dairy...

I found this if it can help you regarding negative symptoms of phosphorus and as you say it is practically impossible to guarantee a relationship through diet if you consume meat and dairy products...I have never supplemented calcium but it could be useful in this purpose in keeping phosphorus lower.

Other phosphorus antagonists are bicarbonates?

My phosphorus levels are normal but also serum magnesium.

PHOSPHORUS - HOMOEOPATHIC MATERIA MEDICA - By William BOERICKE

 

[Motorneuron]

Parathyroid Hormone (PTH) Function: High & Low Levels - SelfHacked

Parathyroid hormone helps maintain mineral balance in the body. Learn how high or low PTH levels can affect your health.

selfhacked.com

 

[joaquin]

Hi guys - This is my first post on the forum. I have been following information on here for a while and I'm very grateful for the insight shared which has helped me a lot.

So, recently upon doing a lot of digging and research I decided to purchase Thorne K2. Why? I was drinking about 2-3 litres of raw milk a day and it made a lot of sense to me to incorporate more k2 so that my body was able to better cope with the increased amount of calcium.

However, surprisingly on the first day of taking a couple of drops, it caused me to have horrendous heart palpitations which intermittently persisted for 4-5 days. I gave myself atrial fibrillation about 5 years ago and nearly started to begin to feel like that again!

Interestingly, upon doing some digging around on here it sounds like this can be a common symptom which other people have been getting on here from taking k2, as well (I wonder why us and not other people).

However, something else to be mindful of is that at the same time as i started to take the k2, I also ate some ox heart as well (which as we know is full of CoQ10).

Vitamin K2 in Electron Transport System: Are Enzymes Involved in Vitamin K2 Biosynthesis Promising Drug Targets?
(Vitamin K2 in Electron Transport System: Are Enzymes Involved in Vitamin K2 Biosynthesis Promising Drug Targets?)

As per the study above and from information shared by others on here on another thread, it sounds like both K2 and CoQ10 can impact the heart's electron transport system and therefore lead to side effects such as heart palpitations in some individuals.

Therefore, I have a couple of points that I would love for you to help me understand a little bit more on:

• Could I have just taken too much? (maybe I need to aim for mcg rather than mg)
• Would I potentially tolerate MK7 or Menatetrenone better than MK4 (found in Thorne k2)
• Was it the Coq10 from the Ox Heart & K2 combination which may have overwhelmed things, and maybe individually I would be okay
• OR..should I avoid both completely and try some alternative (but what would that be?)

Instinctively I feel like it may be a combination of all 3 of those first points but i'd love to hear anyone else's view or perspective on the outcomes that i experienced!

Thanks guys.

I hope you're not taking fish oil. If you are, then you might want to edit your post to include that bit of information.

 

[xeliex]

I found this if it can help you regarding negative symptoms of phosphorus and as you say it is practically impossible to guarantee a relationship through diet if you consume meat and dairy products...I have never supplemented calcium but it could be useful in this purpose in keeping phosphorus lower.

Other phosphorus antagonists are bicarbonates?

My phosphorus levels are normal but also serum magnesium.

PHOSPHORUS - HOMOEOPATHIC MATERIA MEDICA - By William BOERICKE

Thanks for the links. I also know that niacin/niacinamide can help with lowering phosphorus. My serum phosphate is fine, towards the lower end. But the body just releases more PTH to excrete it and increase serum calcium. It's a scenario where the lab is only a small piece of the puzzle. Now that you linked it, a classic homeopath told me that I am/I need Phos. as its my constitution...

Back to OP, this has been discussed on the forum before. Yes, some of us get palpitations from K2 and yes, some of us tolerate it better with more dietary calcium.

 

[moa]

yes, it's happening for me, not with k2 but rather with coq10, or a less anxious similar feeling when i took twice in the past very high vitamin D3 20kui with calcium.

it happened in the past with other substances, thiamine, or coffee when i was not yet adapted to them.

it comes with anxiety and with increased sys blood pressure +20 or so, heartbeat +15 or so, and insomnia i think.

i can reduce a bit the anxiety with theanin or plants or bag breathing. eating more glucose does not make it disappear.

but it seems blood symptoms only disappear when i use topical magnesium all over the body or Epson salt bath.

so i think it's chronic magnesium deficiency inside muscle cells, maybe it's a calcium/magnesium ratio problem also ?

 

[moa]

even cascara sagrada caused the same symptoms when i took too much at once, but back then i didn't knew i need magnesium to stop it, i stopped with colon enema then waited until next day.

 

[moa]

this is how it feels after magnesium over my body, in this case, when i gave this symptoms.

immediately, after 10 or 15 minutes, i start to get very hot, sweating. i don't have fever it's only 37.2 degrees Celsius, and feels like staying under the sun in midday (even is night in the room 27 degrees Celsius room temperature).

blood pressure goes down first after about 30 or 45 minutes, then anxiety gets better, then the heartbeat somehow gets better, but not completely. hearthrate will stay high a bit longer it will go down maybe after a few hours (right now it's 9 bpm more than normal, not much but still a bit higher). normal is 82 and it stays at 90 or 91 right now.

but the hot sweating tend to go away after 40 minutes or so, after opening the windows, going outside a bit to cool down, etc.

it seems to me that the mitochondria uncoupling with thiamine, coq10, red light, coffee, emodin... is not able to increase heat enaught without using some extra magnesium from bloodstream.

this creates probably a regulatory feedback to stop it in order to preserve magnesium levels in the blood and this feedback is stressful to the body creating anxiety and mild blood pressure.

after magnesium, everything goes into full heating machine and all the potential of the mitochondria is wasted as heat, but this waste is good for the health (increase CO2, stop stress, weight loss etc).

i think maybe magnesium is the missing link in this last step of mitochondria when you want the extra calories to be transformed into heat.

 

[moa]

by the way, today i only took 200mg coq10 ubiquinone and also i took 20mg PPQ, but i took no extra K2 other than the usual daily 100mg mk7 i take with my 4000iu D3 (for the past few weeks or months).

 

[moa]

back to normal, tachycardia and blood pressure and anxiety gone.

it's consistent, it happens every time, topical magnesium and foot bath is working very fast if you have this symptoms from increased mitochondria activity with ETC stimulating substances.

magnesium is missing, not more calories and carbs, if you feel like this. other symptoms can happen involving low blood sugar if they don't eat enaught or, they have much pufa. but it doesn't feel the same, it feels like you have more energy because cortisol will make you feel better.

this kind of feeling feels very bad, when you need magnesium, you can't focus on your normal activities because of anxiety and high blood pressure (even is not that high, is only 140 or less but it feels like it's 180 somehow with no motivation or energy)

very strange, since i cannot tolerate oral magnesium (causes anal bleeding after 3 or 4 days), means only solution is topical.

 

[moa]

i also felt huge thirst in the interval between my coq10 ppq intake and magnesium administration 6h later.

i was outside and drinking bottle water. it makes sense since in nature, water is it was the major source of magnesium unlike today tap water or soda.

also makes me think about people who have diabetes, makes me think it's the thirst of diabetes is not caused by a magnesium crisis when cells do burn the extra glucose for fuel but then they don't have magnesium to generate heat with the surplus of calories resulting in both weight gain, high blood glucose and.... thirst (because of drop in plasma magnesium compared to previous, before the meal)

by the way, magnesium is low in diabetes type 2, even they don't measure inside cell, maybe even lower ?