K1 Can Be Converted To MK4 Without Gut Bacteria

J

j.

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Wikipedia:

MK4 is produced via conversion of vitamin K1 in the body, in the testes, pancreas and arterial walls.[2] While major questions still surround the biochemical pathway for the transformation of vitamin K1 to MK4, studies demonstrate the conversion is not dependent on gut bacteria, occurring in germ-free rats[3][4] and in parenterally-administered K1 in rats.[5][6] In fact, tissues that accumulate high amounts of MK4 have a remarkable capacity to convert up to 90% of the available K1 into MK4.[7][8]

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charlie

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Interesting.
 
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J

j.

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Still, the people Weston Price studied who ate a lot of organs and MK4 had better facial structure than your typical dark green veggie eater.
 
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J

j.

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The testes convert K1 to MK4. It reminds me that mk4 supplementation increases and normalizes testosterone levels. Someone suggested it would help with diabetes because it's good for the pancreas. It benefits the arterial walls because it prevents and reverses calcification.
 
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J

j.

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Peat advised supplementing K2 after using an antibiotic, because it would wipe out bacteria that creates K2.

I think it's plausible that it is sound advice. Just like the fact that we can convert T4 to T3 doesn't mean T3/T4 supplementation isn't more beneficial than supplementation of T4 alone.
 
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j.

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Here's a long, readable paper by AOR, a vitamin k brand: Link

On page 15, right colum, there is an argument that's supposed to prove K2 isn't absorbed from the intestine. Wanted to copy and paste but apparently that's blocked. Nevertheless, they say that antibiotics can block vitamin K through other mechanisms.
 
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charlie

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You could screenshot it.
 
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j.

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Here is the argument that vitamin K isn't absorbed from the intestine:

It first came to be believed that the vitamin K made by probiotic bacteria in the gastrointestinal tract was a significant source of the nutrient when it was observed that rodents fed vitamin K-free lab chow did not develop severe deficiency of the vitamin. It turned out, however, that these rodents were staving off bleeding disorders through a cunning (if repulsive) act of desperation: they were consuming their own K2-containing feces. When this tactic was blocked by using barriers which keep the rats from accessing their stool, dangerous deficiency states quickly set in. Stronger evidence was provided by studies in which the colon was directly flooded with different K vitamins: virtually no vitamin K was absorbed, even when very high concentrations of vitamin K were used.

But antibiotics can still block vitamin K use in other ways:

people on antibiotics often develop a vitamin K deficiency. By killing off a person’s probiotic bacteria, the theory went, the antibiotics eliminated a major source of vitamin K, and deficiency set in. But it’s now known that these deficiency states are not caused by the effects of the antibiotics on colonic bacteria, but by the fact that some kinds of antibiotics prevent the body from recycling “used” vitamin K into the form which is active in gamma-carboxylation.
 
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j.

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But that's in rats, maybe human guts are smarter.
 
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J

j.

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I thought I liked vitamin K2, till I learned the lengths those rats would go to get it...
 
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Is there something that's not false in my highschool textbook?
 

EnoreeG

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j. said:
https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/47137/ Here's a long, readable paper by AOR, a vitamin k brand: Link

On page 15, right colum, there is an argument that's supposed to prove K2 isn't absorbed from the intestine. Wanted to copy and paste but apparently that's blocked. Nevertheless, they say that antibiotics can block vitamin K through other mechanisms.

Thanks for all this, j., including the OP. I had heard from several blogs and even people at the Linus Pauling Institute

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-K

that K2 production from K1 via colonic bacteria was not a significant source of K2, and thus we couldn't depend on K1 to increase our K2 availability.

I'm happy to see that K1 is recognized now as a valuable source of the vitamin in that certain organs such as the pancreas can convert nearly all K1 to MK4.

However, is the question still open that MK4 may be insufficient in other systems, such as the skeletal system, because those tissues have little or no capacity to make the K1 to MK-4 conversion? That is, what proof is there that MK-4 produced in certain special organs such as the testis and pancreas, get's "shared" with the entire organism such that there is sufficiency overall?

There is a bit more on this subject here, but I haven't checked the details or references yet:

The Vitamin D Council: on Vitamin K
 
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Amazoniac

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ESPN-13: 978-0-8493-4022-2

"It is now well established that MK-4 is not a major product of bacterial menaquinone biosynthesis, but that tissue MK-4 is formed by an alternate pathway."

"More recent studies [115–117,121] have demonstrated that the phylloquinone-to-MK-4 conversion is very extensive in tissues such as brain, pancreas, and salivary gland and that its concentrations in those tissues exceed that of phylloquinone. Similar distributions of MK-4 have been observed in human tissues [122], and it has been established that high tissue concentrations of MK-4 are more readily obtained in rats by phylloquinone supplementation than by administering MK-4 [123]. Gut bacteria are not needed for this conversion [124,125], and cultures of kidney cells are able to convert phylloquinone to MK-4 in a sterile incubation medium [124]."

115. Will, B.H., Y. Usui, and J.W. Suttie, Comparative metabolism and requirement of vitamin K in
chicks and rats. J. Nutr., 1992. 122: pp. 2354–2360.
116. Guillaumont, M., H. Weiser, L. Sann, B. Vignal, M. Leclerq, and A. Frederich, Hepatic concentration
of vitamin K active compounds after application of phylloquinone to chickens on a vitamin
K deficient or adequate diet. Int. J. Vitam. Nutr. Res., 1992. 62: pp. 15–20.
117. Thijssen, H.H.W. and M.J. Drittij-Reijnders, Vitamin K distribution in rat tissues: Dietary
phylloquinone is a source of tissue menaquinone-4. Br. J. Nutr., 1994. 72: pp. 415–425.
121. Sundaram, K.S., J.A. Engelke, A.L. Foley, J.W. Suttie, and M. Lev, Vitamin K status influences
brain sulfatide metabolism in young mice and rats. J. Nutr., 1996. 126: pp. 2746–2751.
122. Thijssen, H.H.W. and M.J. Drittij-Reijnders, Vitamin K status in human tissues: Tissue-specific
accumulation of phylloquinone and menaquinone-4. Br. J. Nutr., 1996. 75: pp. 121–127.
123. Thijssen, H.H.W., M.J. Drittij-Reijnders, and M.A.J.G. Fischer, Phylloquinone and menaquinone-
4 distribution in rats: Synthesis rather than uptake determines menaquinone-4 organ concentrations.
J. Nutr., 1996. 126: pp. 537–543.
124. Davidson, R.T., A.L. Foley, J.A. Engelke, and J.W. Suttie, Conversion of dietary phylloquinone
to tissue menaquinone-4 in rats is not dependent on gut bacteria. J. Nutr., 1998. 128: pp. 220–223.
125. Ronden, J.E., H.H.W. Thijssen, and C. Vermeer, Tissue distribution of K-vitamers under different
nutritional regimens in the rat. Biochim. Biophys. Acta, 1998. 1379: pp. 16–22.​
 

Luann

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I had forgotten how much I craved cheese and lasagna before supplementing K1. This thread reminded me. K1 makes me feel better than any other supplement, and I get the feeling that a higher dose would feel better yet, no side effects.
 

A.R

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I had forgotten how much I craved cheese and lasagna before supplementing K1. This thread reminded me. K1 makes me feel better than any other supplement, and I get the feeling that a higher dose would feel better yet, no side effects.
What brand supplement are you taking?
 
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Luann

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It's GNC. Don't know if it can replace K2 at all but it's doing something good.
I'd like to hear more about whether K2 is essential or can be converted efficiently from K1.
 

Jon

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@lisaferraro @raypeatclips yet another point on team "supplements aren't neccessary"

especially in lieu of this:

"and it has been established that high tissue concentrations of MK-4 are more readily obtained in rats by phylloquinone supplementation than by administering MK-4 "
 

ddjd

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K1 makes me feel better than any other supplement, and I get the feeling that a higher dose would feel better yet, no side effects.
Same here. I use solaray 100ug, its about 3 dollars for a bottle of 100 tablets. Awesome value. K1 always makes me sleep better and seems to improve liver function. Best value supp
 
L

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@lisaferraro @raypeatclips yet another point on team "supplements aren't neccessary"

especially in lieu of this:

"and it has been established that high tissue concentrations of MK-4 are more readily obtained in rats by phylloquinone supplementation than by administering MK-4 "
I simply feel better eating varied balanced, nutrient dense foods. I do not even feel the need to supplement. Now that I am doing the one Qigong pose daily and increasing my time, my body is leaning out, appetite is increasing, temps are up - really balancing my thyroid. No other physical exercise has brought these fast results. In combination with my good homemade food - things are are finally coming together.

Here are some links on it. PS...my husband and I increased our time to 20min in like 10 days. That is aggressive and not necessary - we really saw good benefits after 5 min - then much more after 10 min. 20 min is a big WoW - we will increase to 30 and hang out for a while simply because of all our morning routine - we simply have no more time. Years ago I had built up to 45min and seriously felt a bit like “superwoman” strong and balanced. It really gives your system vital energy.

*Hold The Balloon


http://developyourenergy.net/zhang-zhuang-chi-kung/holding-the-balloon-the-second-position/


http://sharepoint.bluewillowwellness.com/qigong/Shared Documents/ZHAN ZHUANG Student handoutdoc.doc



http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/four-paradoxes-of-standing-meditation/


Chi kung / Qigong
 

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