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K1 Can Be Converted To MK4 Without Gut Bacteria

Discussion in 'K' started by j., May 24, 2014.

  1. j.

    j. Guest

    Wikipedia:

    Link
     
  2. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Interesting.
     
  3. OP
    j.

    j. Guest

    Still, the people Weston Price studied who ate a lot of organs and MK4 had better facial structure than your typical dark green veggie eater.
     
  4. OP
    j.

    j. Guest

    The testes convert K1 to MK4. It reminds me that mk4 supplementation increases and normalizes testosterone levels. Someone suggested it would help with diabetes because it's good for the pancreas. It benefits the arterial walls because it prevents and reverses calcification.
     
  5. OP
    j.

    j. Guest

    Peat advised supplementing K2 after using an antibiotic, because it would wipe out bacteria that creates K2.

    I think it's plausible that it is sound advice. Just like the fact that we can convert T4 to T3 doesn't mean T3/T4 supplementation isn't more beneficial than supplementation of T4 alone.
     
  6. OP
    j.

    j. Guest

    Here's a long, readable paper by AOR, a vitamin k brand: Link

    On page 15, right colum, there is an argument that's supposed to prove K2 isn't absorbed from the intestine. Wanted to copy and paste but apparently that's blocked. Nevertheless, they say that antibiotics can block vitamin K through other mechanisms.
     
  7. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    You could screenshot it.
     
  8. OP
    j.

    j. Guest

    Here is the argument that vitamin K isn't absorbed from the intestine:

    But antibiotics can still block vitamin K use in other ways:

     
  9. OP
    j.

    j. Guest

    But that's in rats, maybe human guts are smarter.
     
  10. OP
    j.

    j. Guest

    I thought I liked vitamin K2, till I learned the lengths those rats would go to get it...
     
  11. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    Is there something that's not false in my highschool textbook?
     
  12. EnoreeG

    EnoreeG Member

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    Thanks for all this, j., including the OP. I had heard from several blogs and even people at the Linus Pauling Institute

    http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-K

    that K2 production from K1 via colonic bacteria was not a significant source of K2, and thus we couldn't depend on K1 to increase our K2 availability.

    I'm happy to see that K1 is recognized now as a valuable source of the vitamin in that certain organs such as the pancreas can convert nearly all K1 to MK4.

    However, is the question still open that MK4 may be insufficient in other systems, such as the skeletal system, because those tissues have little or no capacity to make the K1 to MK-4 conversion? That is, what proof is there that MK-4 produced in certain special organs such as the testis and pancreas, get's "shared" with the entire organism such that there is sufficiency overall?

    There is a bit more on this subject here, but I haven't checked the details or references yet:

    The Vitamin D Council: on Vitamin K
     
  13. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    ESPN-13: 978-0-8493-4022-2

    "It is now well established that MK-4 is not a major product of bacterial menaquinone biosynthesis, but that tissue MK-4 is formed by an alternate pathway."

    "More recent studies [115–117,121] have demonstrated that the phylloquinone-to-MK-4 conversion is very extensive in tissues such as brain, pancreas, and salivary gland and that its concentrations in those tissues exceed that of phylloquinone. Similar distributions of MK-4 have been observed in human tissues [122], and it has been established that high tissue concentrations of MK-4 are more readily obtained in rats by phylloquinone supplementation than by administering MK-4 [123]. Gut bacteria are not needed for this conversion [124,125], and cultures of kidney cells are able to convert phylloquinone to MK-4 in a sterile incubation medium [124]."

    115. Will, B.H., Y. Usui, and J.W. Suttie, Comparative metabolism and requirement of vitamin K in
    chicks and rats. J. Nutr., 1992. 122: pp. 2354–2360.
    116. Guillaumont, M., H. Weiser, L. Sann, B. Vignal, M. Leclerq, and A. Frederich, Hepatic concentration
    of vitamin K active compounds after application of phylloquinone to chickens on a vitamin
    K deficient or adequate diet. Int. J. Vitam. Nutr. Res., 1992. 62: pp. 15–20.
    117. Thijssen, H.H.W. and M.J. Drittij-Reijnders, Vitamin K distribution in rat tissues: Dietary
    phylloquinone is a source of tissue menaquinone-4. Br. J. Nutr., 1994. 72: pp. 415–425.
    121. Sundaram, K.S., J.A. Engelke, A.L. Foley, J.W. Suttie, and M. Lev, Vitamin K status influences
    brain sulfatide metabolism in young mice and rats. J. Nutr., 1996. 126: pp. 2746–2751.
    122. Thijssen, H.H.W. and M.J. Drittij-Reijnders, Vitamin K status in human tissues: Tissue-specific
    accumulation of phylloquinone and menaquinone-4. Br. J. Nutr., 1996. 75: pp. 121–127.
    123. Thijssen, H.H.W., M.J. Drittij-Reijnders, and M.A.J.G. Fischer, Phylloquinone and menaquinone-
    4 distribution in rats: Synthesis rather than uptake determines menaquinone-4 organ concentrations.
    J. Nutr., 1996. 126: pp. 537–543.
    124. Davidson, R.T., A.L. Foley, J.A. Engelke, and J.W. Suttie, Conversion of dietary phylloquinone
    to tissue menaquinone-4 in rats is not dependent on gut bacteria. J. Nutr., 1998. 128: pp. 220–223.
    125. Ronden, J.E., H.H.W. Thijssen, and C. Vermeer, Tissue distribution of K-vitamers under different
    nutritional regimens in the rat. Biochim. Biophys. Acta, 1998. 1379: pp. 16–22.​
     
  14. Entropy

    Entropy Member

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  15. Liubo

    Liubo Member

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    I had forgotten how much I craved cheese and lasagna before supplementing K1. This thread reminded me. K1 makes me feel better than any other supplement, and I get the feeling that a higher dose would feel better yet, no side effects.
     
  16. A.R

    A.R Member

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    What brand supplement are you taking?
     
  17. Liubo

    Liubo Member

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    It's GNC. Don't know if it can replace K2 at all but it's doing something good.
    I'd like to hear more about whether K2 is essential or can be converted efficiently from K1.
     
  18. Jon

    Jon Member

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    @lisaferraro @raypeatclips yet another point on team "supplements aren't neccessary"

    especially in lieu of this:

    "and it has been established that high tissue concentrations of MK-4 are more readily obtained in rats by phylloquinone supplementation than by administering MK-4 "
     
  19. Joeyd

    Joeyd Member

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    Same here. I use solaray 100ug, its about 3 dollars for a bottle of 100 tablets. Awesome value. K1 always makes me sleep better and seems to improve liver function. Best value supp
     
  20. OP
    lollipop

    lollipop Guest

    I simply feel better eating varied balanced, nutrient dense foods. I do not even feel the need to supplement. Now that I am doing the one Qigong pose daily and increasing my time, my body is leaning out, appetite is increasing, temps are up - really balancing my thyroid. No other physical exercise has brought these fast results. In combination with my good homemade food - things are are finally coming together.

    Here are some links on it. PS...my husband and I increased our time to 20min in like 10 days. That is aggressive and not necessary - we really saw good benefits after 5 min - then much more after 10 min. 20 min is a big WoW - we will increase to 30 and hang out for a while simply because of all our morning routine - we simply have no more time. Years ago I had built up to 45min and seriously felt a bit like “superwoman” strong and balanced. It really gives your system vital energy.

    *Hold The Balloon


    http://developyourenergy.net/zhang-zhuang-chi-kung/holding-the-balloon-the-second-position/


    http://sharepoint.bluewillowwellness.com/qigong/Shared Documents/ZHAN ZHUANG Student handoutdoc.doc



    http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/four-paradoxes-of-standing-meditation/


    Chi kung / Qigong
     
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