Just How Damaging Is Too Much Muscle Meat?

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In other words, has anyone had much experience with alleviation of symptoms by removing muscle meats from the diet? Has anyone done personal experimentation along these lines?
 

mujuro

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I know that when I supplement pure EAAs in place of meals I feel immediately better. Although I think that’s also due to the sheer amount of lysine, because I feel it within minutes of ingesting. What else may be going on, I’m not sure. The powder completely dissolves, and I add a little lemon juice to dissolve the leucine, so I guess it’s effectively a bolus of aminos entering the blood.
 

thisoldtown1978

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I know that when I supplement pure EAAs in place of meals I feel immediately better. Although I think that’s also due to the sheer amount of lysine, because I feel it within minutes of ingesting. What else may be going on, I’m not sure. The powder completely dissolves, and I add a little lemon juice to dissolve the leucine, so I guess it’s effectively a bolus of aminos entering the blood.

Immediately better from what, may I ask? An alleviation of certain symptoms?
 

Dobbler

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I could never live without meat, especially beef. But its personal, if you eat eggs, dairy, seafood, you're probably fine. But without meat i feel very deprived.
 

thisoldtown1978

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I could never live without meat, especially beef. But its personal, if you eat eggs, dairy, seafood, you're probably fine. But without meat i feel very deprived.

Interesting. Deprived in what way? I often find myself craving red meat like crazy after a day or two. However, I still have evident cortisol issues - abdominal fat accumulation - so would be interested to drop the muscles meats.
 

rei

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Many see this as heresy, but switching whole meat to ground meat can be very beneficial, the composition is much more balanced when you eat the "leftovers"
 

Cirion

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The problem with too much meat, from my understanding is this:

Too high tryptophan, methione, cystine compared to other amino acids
Often too high protein compared to carbohydrates
Too high PUFA (depending on choice of meat, like chicken)
Too high iron (if a lot of red meat)
Too much phosphorus

Effects of all of the above can be countered... to a degree, but it can make things difficult... some ways to counter (not an exhaustive list)

Counter tryptophan with enough carbs (also counters high protein intake in general)
Counter PUFA with SFA's
Counter iron with iron chelators / iron inhibitors like caffeine
Counter phosphorus with calcium

So it's not enough to just say "meat is bad", context is key, but it most definitely can make things trickier.
 
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somuch4food

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Many see this as heresy, but switching whole meat to ground meat can be very beneficial, the composition is much more balanced when you eat the "leftovers"

I agree on the composition. You just have to be careful about the "leftovers" freshness.
 

thisoldtown1978

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The problem with too much meat, from my understanding is this:

Too high tryptophan, methione, cystine compared to other amino acids
Often too high protein compared to carbohydrates
Too high PUFA (depending on choice of meat, like chicken)
Too high iron (if a lot of red meat)

Effects of all of the above can be countered... to a degree, but it can make things difficult... some ways to counter (not an exhaustive list)

Counter tryptophan with enough carbs (also counters high protein intake in general)
Counter PUFA with SFA's
Counter iron with iron chelators / iron inhibitors like caffeine

So it's not enough to just say "meat is bad", context is key, but it most definitely can make things trickier.

Thanks, Cirion, this is a nice summary. Do you have any personal experience with high or low meat intake to speak of?
 

Cirion

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Thanks, Cirion, this is a nice summary. Do you have any personal experience with high or low meat intake to speak of?

I love meat, but I've come to realize there is definitely a sweet spot between too little and too much - well, specifically of protein, since a lot of days I don't even have meat anymore (but take care to get enough protein). Too little and I feel off, a hunger that isn't quite satiated. Too much and I tend to get more torpor / brain fog / low energy.

I would say the biggest problem out of them all is simply too low carb compared to protein. Protein tends to lower blood sugar, the last thing you need when hypo, so this effect needs to be minimized (at least relative to carb intakes). To be clear I'm not a fan of "low protein", but rather a fan of "high carbohydrate to protein ratio". Low protein has its own problems.
 
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Milk has has higher % tryptophan than muscle meat. I do not understand this forum's aversion to muscle meats, especially good ground beef.
 

Cirion

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That's true, but things are more complicated than at first glance.

From what I was reading the other day in Nate's book, tryptophan is a double edged sword.

Like all things in mainstream nutrition, often there are nuggets of half truths. For example - the topic of discussion that "tryptophan is a happy inducing amino acid". The thing is, I realize now, that's not entirely wrong. Like everything nutrition, the devil is in the details.

In a hypo person who is sugar deprived, tryptophan is bad. It is going to convert to torpor hormones that make you feel bad and drowsy, lazy, brain fogged. That's a lot of us here, as a lot of us here are recovering hypo's. That's why trypto hits a lot of us hard and it gets a bad rap.

HOWEVER, if you get a lot of sugar/carbs and have a better metabolism, this tryptophan actually gets converted to niacin in the body, which actually is PRO metabolic. Confused? I am too sometimes haha. Niacin is basically the vehicle for energy distribution for your body, as I understand it. That's why a common recommended supplement around here is niacinamide.

This gets back into at the end of the day, you want to eat a large carb / protein ratio. Vitamin C and other nutrient rich foods are preferred sources of carbs.
 
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I think methionine and high phosphorus and iron are the issues with red meat in particular. You can ameliorate these with collagen, calcium (oyster shell), and coffee and/or concord grape juice with consumption of red meat.

I don't consume pork anymore as it's not a ruminant. But I eat beef and lamb and that's how I do it. Something in beef makes me feel good and I would hate to give it up and no reason to.
 

Runenight201

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I’ve gone on and off meat many times, and I’m currently off of it again.

I mainly go by cravings, and I’ve found that I’m really enjoying my conscious states using lentils instead of meat. Cows meat for sure has a negative effect on my sebum production and cystic acne, seafood and pork are neutral.

I’ve been consuming about 4-6 eggs a day and cheese and milk to cravings, which isn’t that much as of late, maybe 2-4 oz of cheese a day and 2-3 glasses of skim milk.

My skin is noticeably less oily with lentils instead of meat, and my appetite and mood regulation are improved with lentils vs meat.

Should I have a craving for meat, I’ll eat it, but as of now I’m much too enjoying these lentils induced conscious states, or rather, lack of negative conscious states induced by excess muscle meat, milk, and fruit.

I make a nice tomato lentil stew for lunch and for breakfast/dinner I’ll have a more savory lentil dish with some toast or rice, and all 3 dishes are served either with mango juice to drink, in addition to some cheese or eggs, but not both combined, depending on what my body is telling me, sometimes there is no animal product with the meal.

Milk is usually kept separate from the starches, and combined with coffee/tea and fruit makes a good snack for me, as the caffeine/sugar wards of the negative opioid effects I usually get from milk alone.

And tonight as my final pre-bedtime meal I’ll be having cheesy potatoes with added butter and ketchup :) maybe some oj and apple sauce as well.

Edit: excess milk tends to cause a drug like depressed effects on my eyes. Absence of milk usually improves my complexion, but there are other times when I heavily crave milk and notice improved mood from drinking it. Attached are two photos, one when I’m under the influence of excess milk, where you can note the disarrayed hair, puffier face, and slightly depressed eyes. In the second one my hair naturally is put together, and my eyes aren’t so depressed, and face as puffy (still working on it tho).

When I’m most free from inflammation my eyes aren’t depressed, and my hair is straight instead of wavy. This is very hard for me to achieve as I usually have to fast on only fruits and vegetables to achieve this, and is no way sustainable.
 

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JustAGuy

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I’ve gone on and off meat many times, and I’m currently off of it again.

I mainly go by cravings, and I’ve found that I’m really enjoying my conscious states using lentils instead of meat. Cows meat for sure has a negative effect on my sebum production and cystic acne, seafood and pork are neutral.

I’ve been consuming about 4-6 eggs a day and cheese and milk to cravings, which isn’t that much as of late, maybe 2-4 oz of cheese a day and 2-3 glasses of skim milk.

My skin is noticeably less oily with lentils instead of meat, and my appetite and mood regulation are improved with lentils vs meat.

Should I have a craving for meat, I’ll eat it, but as of now I’m much too enjoying these lentils induced conscious states, or rather, lack of negative conscious states induced by excess muscle meat, milk, and fruit.

I make a nice tomato lentil stew for lunch and for breakfast/dinner I’ll have a more savory lentil dish with some toast or rice, and all 3 dishes are served either with mango juice to drink, in addition to some cheese or eggs, but not both combined, depending on what my body is telling me, sometimes there is no animal product with the meal.

Milk is usually kept separate from the starches, and combined with coffee/tea and fruit makes a good snack for me, as the caffeine/sugar wards of the negative opioid effects I usually get from milk alone.

And tonight as my final pre-bedtime meal I’ll be having cheesy potatoes with added butter and ketchup :) maybe some oj and apple sauce as well.

Edit: excess milk tends to cause a drug like depressed effects on my eyes. Absence of milk usually improves my complexion, but there are other times when I heavily crave milk and notice improved mood from drinking it. Attached are two photos, one when I’m under the influence of excess milk, where you can note the disarrayed hair, puffier face, and slightly depressed eyes. In the second one my hair naturally is put together, and my eyes aren’t so depressed, and face as puffy (still working on it tho).

When I’m most free from inflammation my eyes aren’t depressed, and my hair is straight instead of wavy. This is very hard for me to achieve as I usually have to fast on only fruits and vegetables to achieve this, and is no way sustainable.
Have same observation with the hair, when I feel bad I get a white tongue and hair becomes wavy. For me it happens with any fat or protein, I think it might be stress related from additional endotoxins from undigested proteins. My skin also becomes oily.
 

Runenight201

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Have same observation with the hair, when I feel bad I get a white tongue and hair becomes wavy. For me it happens with any fat or protein, I think it might be stress related from additional endotoxins from undigested proteins. My skin also becomes oily.

Yes I think inflammation from endotoxins is at the root of it, and why some people maintain good health despite eating a ***t diet, in that their metabolism is good and they have good digestion so endotoxins isn’t produced from inappropriate meals.

Getting to that robust metabolism is the goal lol, because micromanaging the diet can get taxing once life gets in the way, and it would be nice to not have to be so nit picky about what can and can’t be eaten based on the current physiological state.

I wonder if a drug like Cypro could be used on an as needed basis, when the diet won’t be optimal, in order to supercharge digestion and minimize endotoxins?
 

JustAGuy

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Yes I think inflammation from endotoxins is at the root of it, and why some people maintain good health despite eating a ***t diet, in that their metabolism is good and they have good digestion so endotoxins isn’t produced from inappropriate meals.

Getting to that robust metabolism is the goal lol, because micromanaging the diet can get taxing once life gets in the way, and it would be nice to not have to be so nit picky about what can and can’t be eaten based on the current physiological state.

I wonder if a drug like Cypro could be used on an as needed basis, when the diet won’t be optimal, in order to supercharge digestion and minimize endotoxins?
It’s not all about the metabolism, I think it’s the combination of low chronic stress (good diet being #1 factor imo) and high metabolism while inducing occasional bursts of stress to make the body more robust (exercise, a 1 day fast, cold shower) through adapting to this.

In the past I have bulked up on 5000 kcal diet with tons of protein shakes and oat powder chugging it down all day. Massive endotoxin from this, the stress from the endotoxins actually exceeded the benefits from the raised metabolism. I feel better starving myself on 1400 kcal barely eating than I do when I did that.

Edit: by the way try betaine hcl supplement, it actually reduces my endotoxin response to protein quite a lot. I also supplement EAA’s so I need to eat way less protein foods.
EAA’s kill any protein food cravings I have by the way, If I feel like having meat but have a spoon of EAA the craving is gone.

I am also going to try a 3-day fast tomorrow. I know they used this in the 1900s for sick people who found food was “poisoning “ them.
 
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Runenight201

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I’m craving some chicken wings really badly right now so looks like I’m consuming meat again.

Funny enough, I really only want chicken wings. I think the skin, connective tissue, ligaments, and tendons that are present in high amounts is what I’m really after.

I will be eating as much of the wing as I possibly can, sucking that baby dry.
 

SOMO

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I’m craving some chicken wings really badly right now so looks like I’m consuming meat again.

Funny enough, I really only want chicken wings. I think the skin, connective tissue, ligaments, and tendons that are present in high amounts is what I’m really after.

I will be eating as much of the wing as I possibly can, sucking that baby dry.

Wings are the worst part, as far as PUFA is concerned.

Maybe try some thighs/drumsticks instead?
 
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