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Just Ate Carrageenan!

  1. I went to the store and saw three brands of chocolate milk. 2 had carrageenan listed, and I bought the third one and drank it. The one I bought, it turned out, although it didn't have carrageenan listed, had INS 407 listed, I suppose it's a code they're allowed to use to save space. Then I googled what that "INS 407" was and it was carrageenan. Things that happen when you live in south america (although I supposed there are things unlisted in products in most countries).
  3. Yeah, if I stop posting, you know what happened. :P
  4. but it's just a seaweed extract!!!!!!
  5. Charcoal could limit it maybe?
  6. j.-
    walk it off, man!
    just be sure to have an extra giant carrot salad tomorrow.
  7. :-D
  8. :D
  9. You're going to die.
  10. from my experience seaweed might cause irritation the day you eat it but it doesnt leave any residue and
    is pretty much not that bad at all compared to most things....by the time you s**t the next day you wont have
    anything to worry about
  11. The only thing. I ever read about it,is that it can possibly interfere/obstruct proteinmetabolism
  12. From "Food-junk and some mystery ailments: Fatigue, Alzheimer's, Colitis, Immunodeficiency." - Ray Peat

    From "Milk in context: allergies, ecology, and some myths" - Ray Peat

    Ray talks about this substance in several interviews and describes how in its natural form it is not carcinogenic but the problem is that the bacteria in our intestine break it down into its carcinogenic form. In this broken down form it is a very well know carcinogen.
  13. I always wonder about stuff like this. Like, heavy whipping cream lists carrageenan as an ingredient. But half and half just lists cream and milk. I wonder if carrageenan is in the cream the half and half uses but doesn't need to be listed?
  14. I get immediate bad reactions to eating this type of thing, like starting half an hour after, which I suppose happen due to a gut issue. What I had this time is what I can best describe as "weird breathing" for periods of about 45 minutes. Then my breathing returns to normal for a few hours, and then I might have another session of weird breathing. I think it's a tendency to hyperventilate, i.e., breath too fast, which makes me feel uncomfortable, and if I make a conscious effort to breath a bit slower, I feel better.

    I don't expect anyone to believe this, as I think it's very rare. In a few hours though the symptoms will be all gone.
  15. I've found that mainstream "whipping cream" brands have carageenan and
    gums, but that natural or organic ones do not. I believe it is there to assist
    in making whipped cream, so I would assume there is no reason for them to
    add it to half & half.

    - Scott
  16. Weird breathing from carrageenins...
    I'm willing to believe it, j. :roll:
  17. Should I not be eating seaweed?
  18. its hard to say, in small amounts you will likely not notice anything...the fibers can apparently irritate the gut though
    They are very mineral rich though so for that reason are healthy

    One way around this if eating seaweed bothers you
    is to just make tea or broth with it, i like to add some to tea occasionaly
  19. I don't know, but I think eating seaweed is very, very different from eating carrageenan.
  20. Why don't you just make your own chocolate milk? as I figured it'll probably must be easy?.....take some milk,put in some cacopowder and sugar/honey or whatever to sweeten it?
  21. I haven't noticed any issues with digestion. Adding seaweed to the broth and filtering it seems a lot easier than adding it after the fact. Thanks for the advice!
  22. Interesting, thanks for the info.
  23. I do that every day. But this time I was out of the house longer than expected and wanted to drink something.
  24. I've heard that it's to give the cream a longer shelf life. Perhaps half-and-half generally gets used up pretty quickly.
  25. j.-
    At least you didn't drink this (from Wiki):

    You know, whenever I get a notice for this thread, I think:
    I want a T-Shirt with that on it:
    "F**k! I Just Ate Carrageenan!"
  26. I used to drink 3 of these a day:

    Frijj Milkshake

    Skimmed Milk (68%), Whole milk (22%), Sugar, Fat Reduced Cocoa Powder, Buttermilk Powder, Modified Maize Starch, Stabilisers (Carrageenan, Guar Gum)
  27. :rolling
  28. I was wondering,since most of you here are big on avoiding PUFA (except for eggs?) why you use cacao?as I understood it converts in the body as PUFA too...
  29. j.-
    This leads me to believe your prognosis is encouraging.
  30. Haha, I think the effects are probably gone by now. Now I just want a cut of the profits from those shirts you are going to sell...
  31. Never heard of it, where did you find that? You got a link?
  32. There was some mumbo jumbo scientific talk about it a while ago at a thread on 180Degrees:

    "Wilfried January 11, 2013

    Hi everyone,

    Just want to add my opinion here regarding palm oil.
    Even if palm oil is 50% saturated fat, like pork fat, there is a biological subtlety linked to the distrubition of fatty acids in the 1,2 and 3 positions of the glycerol.
    The biodisponibility of a fatty acid is maximal when this one is linked to the position 2 of the glycerol.
    In Palm oil, like cocoa butter for example, the unsaturated fatty acids are in the bioavailable position (position 2) whereas, for example, satured fatty acids occupy that position in lard.
    Palm oil as to be considered like an oil which is rich of unsaturated fatty acids like cocoa butter and not like a source of saturated fatty acids because, when ingested and after digestion, palm oil’s saturated fatty acids are mostly evacuated via the bowel due to their position (1 and 3) of the glycerol and their non utilisation by the body.
    And pork fat as to be considered like saturated fat when digested.

    Source: http://lipidlibrary.aocs.org/lipids/tag1/index.htm
    Wilfried January 11, 2013

    And so, chocolate is not a source of saturated fat, like we think it is, but a source of unsaturated fat….
    But I still love eating chocolate.

    Everyone on sites/forums like these talk so much deep scientific stuff/vocabulary,that I'd think most regular doctors never even pronounced!
  33. OK, so despite the fact that cocoa butter is 5% PUFA, at most, one should consider it predominantly a source of PUFA? Never heard RP mention that. I think he spoke positively of cocoa butter.
  34. Does this mean dark chocolate is bad?
  35. Or bacon is good?
  36. Well, for one thing:
    How much cocoa butter is in cocoa powder?
  37. (I imagine we may need a new thread...wherefore art thou, carrageenan!?)
    Just for starters, from this website:


    I think I've heard Peat say that stearic acid was okay.
    I don't remember him ever saying it converted to polyunsaturated fats in the body.
    In fact, I've never heard of the kind of internal conversion at all.
    Of course, on the website above, all good and bad is inverted for us Peatians--PUFA=good, etc.
  38. I was trying to look up Ray Peat quotes on this. This is the only one I found

  39. This is an interesting chart.
    Compare cocoa butter to coconut oil.

  40. And we've been focusing on cocoa butter,
    which is not what most of us have much of a dietary interest in.
    Check out some basics of the chocolate making process from Wiki,
    and note how cocoa butter and cocoa solids are separated.
    Cocoa solids becomes cocoa powder.

  41. jeje... Because it's incredibly expensive??? Last time I checked cocoa butter was like 4 times more expensive than coconut oil, which is already quite expensive
  42. gabriel-
    That wasn't me--it was the person I quoted.
    But yes! Quite expensive.
    I've never tried eating it.
    I like to use it on my skin,
    but if you buy it pure it is very hard--much harder than coconut oil,
    and thus nearly impossible to use.
    I guess I could melt it...but kinduv a drag.
  43. Sorry! It's the problem of reading from RSS feeds, I missed some formatting
  44. I thought it was inadvertant, gabriel. :)
    I just didn't want others to think I said that.
  45. I've read on many american sites about cacao butter,but what is it? Is it just unsweetened cacao powder or butter mixed with unsweetened cacao powder or what?
  46. It is fat extracted from cocoa/cacao bean.
    Q. What is Carrageenan??
    A. Carrageenan is a naturally-occurring seaweed extract. It is widely used in foods
    and non-foods to improve texture and stability. Common uses include meat and
    poultry, dairy products, canned pet food, cosmetics and toothpaste.
    Q. Why the controversy?
    A. Self-appointed consumer watchdogs have produced numerous web pages filled with
    words condemning carrageenan as an unsafe food additive for human consumption.
    However, in 70+ years of carrageenan being used in processed foods, not a single
    substantiated claim of an acute or chronic disease has been reported as arising from
    carrageenan consumption. On a more science-based footing, food regulatory agencies
    in the US, the EU, and in the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization/World Health
    Organization (FAO/WHO) repeatedly review and continue to approve carrageenan as a
    1/18/13 Lunchables Exposed | My Whole Food Life
    mywholefoodlife.com/2013/01/11/lunchables-exposed/#comment-2554 6/7
    safe food additive.
    Q. What has led up to this misrepresentation of the safety of an important food
    stabilizer, gelling agent and thickener?
    A. It clearly has to be attributed to the research of Dr. Joanne Tobacman, an
    Associate Prof at the University of Illinois in Chicago. She and a group of molecular
    biologists have accused carrageenan of being a potential inflammatory agent as a
    conclusion from laboratory experiments with cells of the digestive tract. It requires a
    lot of unproven assumptions to even suggest that consumption of carrageenan in the
    human diet causes inflammatory diseases of the digestive tract. The objectivity of the
    Valley of the Sun Organics
    Chicago research is also flawed by the fact that Dr Tobacman has tried to have
    carrageenan declared an unsafe food additive on weak technical arguments that she
    broadcast widely a decade before the University of Chicago research began.
    Q. What brings poligeenan into a discussion of carrageenan?
    A. Poligeenan (“degraded carrageenan” in pre-1988 scientific and regulatory
    publications) is a possible carcinogen to humans; carrageenan is not. The only
    relationship between carrageenan and poligeenan is that the former is the starting
    material to make the latter. Poligeenan is not a component of carrageenan and cannot
    be produced in the digestive tract from carrageenan-containing foods.
    Q. What are the differences between poligeenan and carrageenan?
    A. The production process for poligeenan requires treating carrageenan with strong
    acid at high temp (about that of boiling water) for 6 hours or more. These severe
    processing conditions convert the long chains of carrageenan to much shorter ones:
    ten to one hundred times shorter. In scientific terms the molecular weight of
    poligeenan is 10,000 to 20,000; whereas that of carrageenan is 200,000 to 800,000.
    Concern has been raised about the amount of material in carrageenan with molecular
    weight less than 50,000. The actual amount (well under 1%) cannot even be detected
    accurately with current technology. Certainly it presents no threat to human health.
    Q. What is the importance of these molecular weight differences?
    A. Poligeenan contains a fraction of material low enough in molecular weight that it
    can penetrate the walls of the digestive tract and enter the blood stream. The
    molecular weight of carrageenan is high enough that this penetration is impossible.
    Animal feeding studies starting in the 1960s have demonstrated that once the low
    molecular weight fraction of poligeenan enters the blood stream in large enough
    amounts, pre-cancerous lesions begin to form. These lesions are not observed in
    animals fed with a food containing carrageenan.
    1/18/13 Lunchables Exposed | My Whole Food Life
    mywholefoodlife.com/2013/01/11/lunchables-exposed/#comment-2554 7/7
    Q. Does carrageenan get absorbed in the digestive track?
    A. Carrageenan passes through the digestive system intact, much like food fiber. In
    fact, carrageenan is a combination of soluble and insoluble nutritional fiber, though its
    use level in foods is so low as not to be a significant source of fiber in the diet.
    Carrageenan has been proven completely safe for consumption. Poligeenan is not a
    component of carrageenan.
    Closing Remarks
    The consumer watchdogs with their blogs and websites would do far more service to
    consumers by researching their sources and present only what can be substantiated
    by good science. Unfortunately we are in an era of media frenzy that rewards
    Additional information available:
    On June 11th, 2008, Dr. Joanne Tobacman petitioned the FDA to revoke the current
    regulations permitting use of carrageenan as a food additive.
    On June 11th, 2012 the FDA denied her petition, categorically addressing and
    ultimately dismissing all of her claims; their rebuttal supported by the results of
    several in-depth, scientific studies. If you would like to read the full petition and FDA
    response, they can be accessed at
    http://www.regulations.gov/#!searchResu ... 008-P-0347
  48. Debbie, you talk like the FDA is a credible organization.
  49. I'm gonna whip up a giant Carrageenan Milkshake!
    j., you're gonna live!
  50. Hi everyone,

    Regarding the post I made on cocoa butter here and on Matt Stone's blog, I sent the same info to RP.
    And here is reply: " Thanks. That's very important information".
    But...I think that we all must agree that despite the ingested PUFA from cocoa butter the most important thing is that chocolate still have health benefits and we have no reason to avoid it.
    The problem with ingested fat is, I think, that we are looking of fat's profile before the action of the human lipase and not considering the result after human digestive process which seems far more complicated than most of us think it is.
  51. Ben and Jerry's contains carageenan. WHY?
  52. Cause most people haven't ever heard the word carrageenan, let alone know that in its degraded it produces cancer.

    If you were thinking the FDA would protect people from this kind of thing, the FDA is probably just an arm of the PR departments of big food industries.
  53. So I was thinking again about carrageenan and did some web searches trying to see if there was any new science. I didn't find any but did follow a long thread on an obscure vegan site. Almost three hundred comments after the post raising concerns about it. Way down toward the end was a post very similar to Debbie's on this thread. Probably pasted from the same source. Someone on the other board called out the poster as someone from the Carrageenan Manufacturers association science advisory staff. When I checked Debbie"s profile she had just signed up and made only that post.
  54. :tinfoilhat
  55. Ya, that post has been posted at a bunch of places on the web. Looks like someone has a google alert for carrageenan and just posts that manifesto.
  56. After checking into Debbie's IP address. It's a very suspicious one which I do not want to go into further detail here in public. Very good catch, Ken. Thank you.
  57. For a pretty good look at toxicity of carageenan, search at Cornucopia.com find dropdown section "articles" read "carageenan" and also read "the white papers" in same "articles" dropdown.

    Your section here, about carrageenan was the final enticement for me to join you. I have other good articles about it but don't know how to copy http addresses here or anywhere for that matter. One particular annoying site has games for kids, encourages college kids to buy it, I suppose they are inducting kids(like Camal cigarettes induction for kids), bleh! There is a drawing of the chemical stucture and it looks gross and sticky just like it feels in your mouth and gut.

    The White Papers = a long read but worth it. Perhaps you've already read this? Forgive my newness.

    Sorry about my lack of computor skills, yours is the first place/forum I've enjoyed so much that I wanted to join.
    I mostly "computor" for my own curiousity, enjoy biology or other challanging subjects.

    Also my internet sometimes times out(rural here)if it seems my musings are incomplete,perhaps they are... :lol:
  58. I think you meant cornucopia.org. They have a guide of products with and without carrageenan, such as chocolate milk, cheeses.
  59. Thank you, yes...have you read the white paper?
  60. I didn't find it.
  61. Forgive me, the dropdown menu is titled "Projects" not articles and it is http//:Cornucopia.org

    It is The Cornucopia Institute, Economic Justice for Family Scale Farming
  62. The full article is under "Projects" tittled Organic Watergate white papers, it is a PDF file = an enlightening read, 78 pages.
  63. Coffe, any way to get some cliff notes from that?
  64. I don't know what you mean by cliff notes, laminated cheat sheets, like in high school? Or my personal notes? Mid December I decided 2013 would be my personal fix diet year, as I said before carageenan has been on my s--- list for quite sometime. For the last week I have been turning on my printer (6x) to print that Organic Watergate paper, but everytime have been waylaid by goings on, here at home. I now have a hard copy to read and annotate, as with most of us, time is the issue! By the way I have been implementing Peats Ideas, coffee,coconut oil, liver and others... since I cook for all here it will be gradual. The first things to go were cargeenan and PUFA. It is sad though as my husband fishes wild caught Salmon, cooking methods will be changed & less often. BTW, thanks for greeting.
  65. Oh I was wondering if there was cliff notes on the white papers you were talking about. Is the entire thing about carageenan saying how bad it is?
  66. Charlie, thank you for the query. Cornucopia is a small group concerned with maintaining the original purpose of organic farmers - foods pure and unadultured. The Organic Watergate Paper points out; large food corps have jumped on the band wagon of organic farming; and have taken over the NOSB ( National Organic Standards Board). Big corps have done this through lobbying and filling slots on NOSB, with corporation sympathsizers. Cornucopia targets; carageenan, DHA,ARA et al and the chemical cleansing of those with hexane et al. The paper shares an interesting timeline of carrageenan. They share the story of DHA-alga oil, ARA-fungal oil, the radiation (gamma&xray), and mutagenic means by which these are acquired. They cite cases of sick babies and confirm that corps are looking for the reductionist view-magic bullet of health that only they can manufacture. Also corps ignore any science that goes against thier wants/bottom line/$$. One review they cite "Dr JK Tobacan Review of Harmful Gastrointestinal Effects of Carrageenan in Animal Experiments. Environ Health Perspect 109(10). 2001

    My take: This paper and a few others opened my eyes to what is happening w/sickness, food supply, pharma...etc.
    I feel Rp's ideas' trump's them all.
    I have no affiliation w/Cornucopia or any other organization, I am outraged by contamination of food supply!
    I grow my own vegetables and root/carrot crops will be larger this year.
    I am extremely happy to have found RP and forum!
    Charlie, hope this fills you in a little about myself and Organic Watergate white paper. One day I hope to learn how to copy http: addresses onto other pages, like I see you all know how to do!
  67. Coffee, thanks for that summary. :)

    To copy an address, highlight the address then right click and then copy, then put your cursor where you want the address to be, then right click and then click paste.
  68. Ya whipping cream = migraines if not organic : / Not to mention sleepless nights