Jordan B Peterson; Anyone Else Following This?

Kunder

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The whole Peterson case serves as a nice illustration why Canada has become an unlivable country.
 
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kayumochi

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He regularly mentions that males with high serotonin find it easier to move up dominance hierarchies.
He's pretty interesting, but I always cringe when he says that. In fact, we have several studies posted on the forum that say the exact opposite.

Just began reading his book 12 Rules For Life and there is page after page about high serotonin and success in life ...
 

Sobieski

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High serotonin may indeed correlate to success in life, in terms of career and social success. I would also be willing to believe adrenaline and cortisol also may have similar correlations as well. The fact is these chemicals and hormones, while being destructive over the long haul, can increase productivity and output over years and even decades before the cumulative damage becomes evident (and irreversible). There are plenty of highly successful people who are unhealthy and completely falling apart.

I believe Petersen may be correct in saying that high serotonin has links to success, but ultimately is unaware/ignorant of it's long term damaging effects as with other stress hormones.
 

thomas00

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What's success in his view? Making lots of money and climbing to the top of some corporate heirarchy?
 

Dhair

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High serotonin may indeed correlate to success in life, in terms of career and social success. I would also be willing to believe adrenaline and cortisol also may have similar correlations as well. The fact is these chemicals and hormones, while being destructive over the long haul, can increase productivity and output over years and even decades before the cumulative damage becomes evident (and irreversible). There are plenty of highly successful people who are unhealthy and completely falling apart.

I believe Petersen may be correct in saying that high serotonin has links to success, but ultimately is unaware/ignorant of it's long term damaging effects as with other stress hormones.
Have you ever taken SSRIs or SNRIs? It feels as if someone or something has brought your life to a screeching halt. You are only drifting through life. Haidut made a post about this. There is scientific evidence that SSRIs make a person unable to form intent. However, there is also evidence that they cause hyperviolence and aggression, due to the learned helplessness that these drugs induce, coupled with pituitary dysfunction.
There is more than enough evidence to refute the serotonin theory of happiness on this forum, and the handful of examples that Peterson cites look pitiful at best in comparison to the work that Ray Peat has compiled on this issue.
 

kayumochi

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Psychologist Jordan Peterson says lobsters help to explain why human hierarchies exist – do they?
Have you ever taken SSRIs or SNRIs? It feels as if someone or something has brought your life to a screeching halt. You are only drifting through life. Haidut made a post about this. There is scientific evidence that SSRIs make a person unable to form intent. However, there is also evidence that they cause hyperviolence and aggression, due to the learned helplessness that these drugs induce, coupled with pituitary dysfunction.
There is more than enough evidence to refute the serotonin theory of happiness on this forum, and the handful of examples that Peterson cites look pitiful at best in comparison to the work that Ray Peat has compiled on this issue.

I once had a boss who had taken SSRIs for years before I worked with him and weaned himself off of them by the regular use of cannabis but the damage had already been done: he lost his position because, as you said, he "drifted through life" and couldn't "form intent."
 

Dhair

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Psychologist Jordan Peterson says lobsters help to explain why human hierarchies exist – do they?


I once had a boss who had taken SSRIs for years before I worked with him and weaned himself off of them by the regular use of cannabis but the damage had already been done: he lost his position because, as you said, he "drifted through life" and couldn't "form intent."
I doubt there was any permanent damage done, but cannabis is highly serotenergic, so he basically never escaped that mindset. It's just ignorance.
Also, serotonin antagonizes the gonadal steroids, and the gonadal steroids antagonize serotonin. Does Peterson think that the most successful men in history have largely been hypogonadal? I highly doubt it.
 

Sobieski

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Have you ever taken SSRIs or SNRIs? It feels as if someone or something has brought your life to a screeching halt. You are only drifting through life. Haidut made a post about this. There is scientific evidence that SSRIs make a person unable to form intent. However, there is also evidence that they cause hyperviolence and aggression, due to the learned helplessness that these drugs induce, coupled with pituitary dysfunction.
There is more than enough evidence to refute the serotonin theory of happiness on this forum, and the handful of examples that Peterson cites look pitiful at best in comparison to the work that Ray Peat has compiled on this issue.

Yes I understand what you are saying and I agree with Ray Peat on the matter. I didn't mentioned happiness once, all I'm suggesting is that stress hormones (such as serotonin) can actually increase functioning, despite long term damaging effects. We need small amounts of stress hormones to function, it is when they are chronically elevated when they are problematic.

Just for reference I do have experience of serotonergenic drugs.
 
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Dhair

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Yes I understand what you are saying and I agree with Ray Peat on the matter. I didn't mentioned happiness once, all I'm suggesting is that stress hormones (such as serotonin) can actually increase functioning, despite long term damaging effects. We need small amounts of stress hormones to function, it is when they are chronically elevated when they are problematic.

Just for reference I do have experience of serotonergenic drugs.
A certain amount of serotonin is needed for platelet aggregation, and one will always have enough even with a miniscule amount of tryptophan in the diet.
The fact remains that you cannot excuse this man for promoting widespread use of SSRIs (seemingly for nootropic purposes, no less(!)) when there is overwhelming evidence that these drugs are extremely dangerous. If he truly is this self-proclaimed genius (160 IQ :roll:) then he should know better, which makes this all the more creepy. I won't accept any excuses.
 

Sobieski

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A certain amount of serotonin is needed for platelet aggregation, and one will always have enough even with a miniscule amount of tryptophan in the diet.
The fact remains that you cannot excuse this man for promoting widespread use of SSRIs (seemingly for nootropic purposes, no less(!)) when there is overwhelming evidence that these drugs are extremely dangerous. If he truly is this self-proclaimed genius (160 IQ :roll:) then he should know better, which makes this all the more creepy. I won't accept any excuses.

Yes, you're absolutely right, Petersen is not correct regarding serotonin. He doesn't seem to think it makes you 'happy' though as he even says when they inject lobsters with serotonin they become aggressive. What I am saying is that he mistakenly believes serotonin to be a beneficial chemical when in reality any 'benefit' brought about by elevated serotonin is similar to the 'benefits' produced by elevated adrenaline, cortisol and estrogen. They all are capable of producing perceived positives whilst simultaneously destroying our health (I've been there myself). I understand you already know this basic stuff, I'm just trying to make it a little more clearer what it is I'm trying to convey.
 

Sobieski

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What's success in his view? Making lots of money and climbing to the top of some corporate heirarchy?

I believe that is what he is predominantly referring to. Or maybe more specifically social hierarchies, of which careers and money tend to be a large contributing factor.
 

mt_dreams

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What's success in his view? Making lots of money and climbing to the top of some corporate heirarchy?
The things you mentioned are possible effects of work success, not success itself. Which is not to say JP says to be poor, rather those points do not reflect what he thinks are important as a whole. For JP, success is the taking on, and handling of responsibility, both in work, and most importantly in life.
 

Herbie

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It's obvious that dopamine would be involved in all the successful triumphs involved in rising up the social hierarchy...

Peterson is out of his league when it comes to talking about neurotransmitters and anti psychotic drugs because he is a psychologist who cannot prescribe such drugs he must be a doctor or psychiatrist in order to prescribe them and nor is he a biologist of chemist.
 

michael94

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It's obvious that dopamine would be involved in all the successful triumphs involved in rising up the social hierarchy...

Peterson is out of his league when it comes to talking about neurotransmitters and anti psychotic drugs because he is a psychologist who cannot prescribe such drugs he must be a doctor or psychiatrist in order to prescribe them and nor is he a biologist of chemist.
Most doctors are out of their league talking about such things because they believe in receptors.
 

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