It's Just Bad

[Dino D]

@Jacob28
Gut dysbiosis.

Low thyroid seems to be caused by gut issues for many people, especially considering he takes thyroid and feels nothing. Hence why people go to “perfect diets” and still have thyroid problems. Endotoxin is a ubiquitous metabolism inhibitor.

Doubt iron deficiency due to diet considering he is eating chicken liver. Iron deficiency due to dysbiotic bowel causing sequestration of iron is more likely.

Undernutrition may be a part of it but most likely secondary due to lack of appetite from elevated stress hormones with a messed up bowel. Trying to overeat to compensate may make it worse, atleast in my experience

Honey, in my experience, is worse than sugar in a dysbiosis as it has excess fructose in ratio to glucose leading to possible endotoxin increases as most humans dont absorb fructose well without glucose (atleast the research says this).

Low vit A is doubtful, he is eating liver. Low vit D is possibly but it will stay low if you have a dysbiotic bowel despite supplementation.

@Jacob28
I had similar issues until i changes my diet. The traditional “ray peat” diet wrecked me as well. What helped me was:
-Dropping the dairy, replacing it with beef and seafood (shrimp, scallops, cod, mussels, oysters)
-drop gelatin for now, it could make things worse with a dysbiosis
-increasing fat to clear out the small intestine from non-dairy sources that arent coconut oil. The hormones in dairy fat caused issues for me. Coconut oil can be eaten, but at first when i ate too much by itself i got GI issues, its called disaster pants. Beef tallow, cocoa butter are good sources. You can probably get tallow from your butcher, i buy mine online but i’m in the US. If you cant find those a quality olive oil could work, its just higher in PUFA. Lard can work as well if the pigs were fed well but its usually high in PUFA.
-i had to drop the refined sugar, and drink fruit juice with a 1:1 ratio of glucose to fructose and low fodmap instead. Orange, pineapple, grape, pomegranate were all fine for me. Orange juice made me cold tho so i stopped drinking it
-low fodmap, whole fruit was fine for me when i start. Berries, citrus, grapes and dragon fruit can work, i avoided citrus tho, as mentioned above.
-carrots, well cooked leafy greens worked for me as well. I eat a carrot with every meal ( i eat 4/ day)
-I eat 3-4 solid meals a day seperated by 3-4 hours. This allows the intestine to clear itself of bacteria via the migrating motor complex, google it
-figuring out my caloric requirement using the katch-mccardle formula gave me a baseline. It was a general guideline not a rule tho, I go over alot now. Just good to see to startt
-my protein based on research was between .6-.8g/lb of bodyweight
-fats, atleast in my experience 40%-50% of calories
-carbs 30-40% of calories
-to start i tried to leave 12 hours between dinner and breakfast with no eating to allow my intestine to clear itself. Definetly helped out
-i have personally used rifaximin and nystatin with success in clearing out my small intestine. Thing is they work best in the presence of bile, so higher fat makes them work better.

* these interventions stabilized me. I still had a lingering colon dysbiosis, but I didnt address that until later on.

sounds good, can you still put a meal plan? first the two meals a day (12 hours between) than the 3-4 solid meals a day? thx :)

 

[Dino D]

Many months ago I had extreme tiredness, had to take deep breaths often, air hunger, constant yawning(like every 5-10 minutes) despite sleeping a lot, fatigue similar to your symptoms. Taking an iron glycinate supplement fixed that problem quickly. Many of your symptoms can be attributed to iron deficiency, if iron is indeed an issue, taking some could reduce many of those symptoms.

I'm taking iron for 9 days, mood, energy is better, I'm less puffy, maybe even some weight loss... sleep is the same (not that good but ok)... but my morning woods are almost goone, and my libido i also low... same happend when I was taking zinc, also libido gone after 10 days... any ideas? maybe low copper? ( I still belive iron is helping me in general)

 

[redsun]

I'm taking iron for 9 days, mood, energy is better, I'm less puffy, maybe even some weight loss... sleep is the same (not that good but ok)... but my morning woods are almost goone, and my libido i also low... same happend when I was taking zinc, also libido gone after 10 days... any ideas? maybe low copper? ( I still belive iron is helping me in general)

Zinc is supposed to help libido considerably. Of course excess can affect it negatively but its pretty unlikely. You're prolactin may be too high, testosterone too low, estrogen could be at fault as well. P5P(active B6) is incredibly good at lowering prolactin and estrogen which should help libido. I also read a thread here where some took B2 with great effect on libido. Peat recommends somewhat low doses of P5P I think its 10mg at most but most P5P supplements have at least 50mg and temporarily it is safe as long as you watch for side effects. I dont think its that easy to get problems with P5P unless you really overdue it.

 

[Jacob28]

(Update)
Still have strong flatulence, gas and cramps after eating moderate to high amounts of sugar, which worries me very much. It's worst after fructose, sucrose is tiny little safer but still gives me intestinal pain and looots of gas. Also it seems most sugar is going to bacteria as a really tasty meal. Why thymol which is strong antiseptic, doesn't work?( dose 100mg-300mg 2x daily) I also take some Shostakovsky balsam, it's just bacteriostatic( but strong) and great for healing mucous membranes, it creates nice protective coating in stomach and intestines. Also great for wound healing. But they're apparently too weak for my dysbiosis and inflamation.
I feel like it's a lot of putrefactive bacteria( ''carnivorous'') and even more breaking down sugar( mostly fructose, also others) in small intestine. It gives me so much pain.

Also pain in my legs doesn't lessen. It seems my muscles are chronically full of lactic acid and deficient in sugar( glucose->glycogen?) I'm very worried. My muscles are very weak and get tired very easily. Even actions like holding phone for 10 minutes makes my arm tired. Not to mention about hard work like carrying heavy things in work( stainless steel) After 8 hours in work I'm just drained and exhausted. I'm giving up.

I use some codeine( doses 70-100-115) from time to time- it gives me so much relief in pain( with some ibuprofen or paracetamol) and improves my mood( even gives me euphoria) I became very talkative and stress free. My nervous system and brain is like- oh yeeaah... that's it... that's good... But it's an opiate and gives me itching skin( antihistamines prevent it ), difficulty in urinating and slows down bowel movement)... So it doesn't solve any problems, even creates more.
I'm just giving up. I was even thinking of taking morphine, benzodiazepines and alcohol and chlorophorm(!),to fall asleep and don't wake up anymore. It was few weeks ago, I was just lying, sleeping, crying, walking around house purposefully, rolling in pain. Now I have a little hope, but it's slowly disappearing.

 

[Hans]

(Update)
Still have strong flatulence, gas and cramps after eating moderate to high amounts of sugar, which worries me very much. It's worst after fructose, sucrose is tiny little safer but still gives me intestinal pain and looots of gas. Also it seems most sugar is going to bacteria as a really tasty meal. Why thymol which is strong antiseptic, doesn't work?( dose 100mg-300mg 2x daily) I also take some Shostakovsky balsam, it's just bacteriostatic( but strong) and great for healing mucous membranes, it creates nice protective coating in stomach and intestines. Also great for wound healing. But they're apparently too weak for my dysbiosis and inflamation.
I feel like it's a lot of putrefactive bacteria( ''carnivorous'') and even more breaking down sugar( mostly fructose, also others) in small intestine. It gives me so much pain.

Also pain in my legs doesn't lessen. It seems my muscles are chronically full of lactic acid and deficient in sugar( glucose->glycogen?) I'm very worried. My muscles are very weak and get tired very easily. Even actions like holding phone for 10 minutes makes my arm tired. Not to mention about hard work like carrying heavy things in work( stainless steel) After 8 hours in work I'm just drained and exhausted. I'm giving up.

I use some codeine( doses 70-100-115) from time to time- it gives me so much relief in pain( with some ibuprofen or paracetamol) and improves my mood( even gives me euphoria) I became very talkative and stress free. My nervous system and brain is like- oh yeeaah... that's it... that's good... But it's an opiate and gives me itching skin( antihistamines prevent it ), difficulty in urinating and slows down bowel movement)... So it doesn't solve any problems, even creates more.
I'm just giving up. I was even thinking of taking morphine, benzodiazepines and alcohol and chlorophorm(!),to fall asleep and don't wake up anymore. It was few weeks ago, I was just lying, sleeping, crying, walking around house purposefully, rolling in pain. Now I have a little hope, but it's slowly disappearing.

Fructose intolerance is created/amplified by the sympathetic nervous system.
Inhibit it by boosting GABA.
Maybe cut out sucrose, lower fruit intake and eat more veggies/starches that doesn't negatively effect you.

Have you tried high dose vitamin B1, magnesium, B3 and biotin? Aspirin, methylene blue and pyrucet will also help boost glucose oxidation and lower lactate levels which should make you feel better.

A combo of 300-500mg B1, pyrucet, 500mg niacinamide, 500mg aspirin and 200-400mg magnesium should work great. You can add a little methylene blue to lower lactate even more and also lower inflammation.

Apart from the glucose oxidation problems, you need to get your gut moving. Have you tried cascara and activated charcoal?

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I'm taking iron for 9 days, mood, energy is better, I'm less puffy, maybe even some weight loss... sleep is the same (not that good but ok)... but my morning woods are almost goone, and my libido i also low... same happend when I was taking zinc, also libido gone after 10 days... any ideas? maybe low copper? ( I still belive iron is helping me in general)

Sounds like low copper, start with that then slowly introduce iron with lysine and vitamin c to help it get used properly, and sparingly introduce zinc after this. Take a month to introduce each, always good to take copper, it is like the magnesium of trace minerals, a chaperone. Boron will likely help with libido.

Ignore what RP says about iron or pufa being the enemy. They are not the enemy, they are merely pawns in the oxidative chain of command! The oxidative chain has a fair ruler (our body operating in its full health), and a list of unjust rulers that drive oxidation too far: nutrient depleted foods, endotoxin, heavy metals / environmental contaminants, chronic stress from poor lifestyle hygiene, and excess dietary fat, especially saturated fat (there are many reasons, primarily it causes hypercoagulation of blood and promotes endotoxemia much more so than other fats). Removing the agents of oxidation does not remove the source, we need to remove the source which generates excess as the agents are integral to normal health.

 

[Dino D]

Sounds like low copper, start with that then slowly introduce iron with lysine and vitamin c to help it get used properly, and sparingly introduce zinc after this. Take a month to introduce each, always good to take copper, it is like the magnesium of trace minerals, a chaperone. Boron will likely help with libido.

Ignore what RP says about iron or pufa being the enemy. They are not the enemy, they are merely pawns in the oxidative chain of command! The oxidative chain has a fair ruler (our body in full health), and a list of unjust rulers that drive oxidation too far: nutrient depleted foods, endotoxin, heavy metals / environmental contaminants, chronic stress from poor lifestyle hygiene, and excess dietary fat, especially saturated fat. Removing the agents of oxidation does not remove the source, we need to remove the source as the agents are integral to normal health.

I ordered copper :) so i will try it...
Low fat sound ok to me :) just not to low thx

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I ordered copper :) so i will try it...
Low fat sound ok to me :) just not to low thx

Supplemental copper alone does not upset zinc or iron levels, where as taking iron alone or zinc alone easily upsets the balance between the 3.

 

[Jacob28]

Starch gives me feeling of excess fullness in stomach. I get indigestion almost after every meal. I can't eat almost any vegetables, fruits cooked/canned, only in small amounts. ANY bananas( they're probably the worst), melons, watermelons, small amounts of well cooked apples without skin are OK, but they're acidic- my teeth are already in a bad shape( no cavities or decay, just run-down). So, I can kill all bacteriae/fungus etc. and still got that terrible symptoms with fructose/ sucrose? So I don't ''assimilate'' sugar well and get lactic acid instead? I'm just cut up and broken. I can't get energy from basic source.
Cascara helps with bowel movements, sometimes i have to use some magnesium chloride. Activated charcoal gives me only constipation. I'm trying to use lots of gellatin, but it creates lots of smelly and painful gas. I can try pyrucet, but it might be expensive and hard to find in my country. I already have little money because of all these bloody supplements which don't help at all.

 

[Hans]

Starch gives me feeling of excess fullness in stomach. I get indigestion almost after every meal. I can't eat almost any vegetables, fruits cooked/canned, only in small amounts. ANY bananas( they're probably the worst), melons, watermelons, small amounts of well cooked apples without skin are OK, but they're acidic- my teeth are already in a bad shape( no cavities or decay, just run-down). So, I can kill all bacteriae/fungus etc. and still got that terrible symptoms with fructose/ sucrose? So I don't ''assimilate'' sugar well and get lactic acid instead? I'm just cut up and broken. I can't get energy from basic source.
Cascara helps with bowel movements, sometimes i have to use some magnesium chloride. Activated charcoal gives me only constipation. I'm trying to use lots of gellatin, but it creates lots of smelly and painful gas. I can try pyrucet, but it might be expensive and hard to find in my country. I already have little money because of all these bloody supplements which don't help at all.

Ok, the main focus would be digestion. Have you tried soups? Maybe bone broth with ox tail or some other bone-y cuts with lots of collagen. Avoid all foods that cause digestion problems. Maybe you can add a starch in there such as potatoes and then just take a digestive enzyme with the meal if you still bloat.
Killing the bacteria might not help because they are not the root cause. Too little stomach acid and perhaps bile production and secretion is the main cause. Pepsin, vinegar and betaine can aid in digestion. Taurine can help with bile secretion or ox bile can act as a substitute.
For the cavities, you can do oil pulling with coconut oil 1-2 times per day to keep bacteria in check. It really helps to reduce teeth sensitivity. Then vitamin K2, vitamin D and calcium can help to remineralize your teeth.

Avoid the gelatin for now as it gives you gut issues and stick to bone broth or use glycine instead.

 

[Jacob28]

I eat beef soup( meat and bones ) regularly but isn't it the same as gellatin? I also eat tripe( very collagenous). I think I'll use some dextrose and maybe maltose, some lactose instead of all that sucrose and eat only small amounts of fruits, little table sugar.
Bitter herbs like wormwood, tansy, yarrow( two latest are very common in my area) also mint, celandine, calamus were helping me a lot with digestion but for some reason I stopped using them. I may have too little stomach acid or digestive enzymes because of chronic stress.
I use glicine for few days.
I try keeping fat and PUFAs low, because I still eat some pork meat. Sometimes pork bone tomato soup, which doesn't have so much fat.

 

[redsun]

Starch gives me feeling of excess fullness in stomach. I get indigestion almost after every meal. I can't eat almost any vegetables, fruits cooked/canned, only in small amounts. ANY bananas( they're probably the worst), melons, watermelons, small amounts of well cooked apples without skin are OK, but they're acidic- my teeth are already in a bad shape( no cavities or decay, just run-down). So, I can kill all bacteriae/fungus etc. and still got that terrible symptoms with fructose/ sucrose? So I don't ''assimilate'' sugar well and get lactic acid instead? I'm just cut up and broken. I can't get energy from basic source.
Cascara helps with bowel movements, sometimes i have to use some magnesium chloride. Activated charcoal gives me only constipation. I'm trying to use lots of gellatin, but it creates lots of smelly and painful gas. I can try pyrucet, but it might be expensive and hard to find in my country. I already have little money because of all these bloody supplements which don't help at all.

You likely need to go incredibly minimalist for a bit and slowly add in foods again. Something like muscle meats e.g. steak, chicken, pork with some kind of carb source you tolerate. Most people tolerate white rice. You shouldnt necessarily strictly avoid fats(not including PUFA) as fat can help digestion. If you get lots of lactic acid symptoms you are not oxidizing energy properly. You may need B-vitamins, specifically thiamine is very helpful for lowering lactic acid. All b-vitamins play a role in proper oxidative metabolism however. Avoid even gelatin, glycine as Hans said as they cause gut issues and also digestive enzymes should be considered as well. Avoid all gut irritating substances. I also agree with soups incredibly helpful if you have digestive issues.

 

[Jacob28]

The thing is that even well cooked starch may be problematic for me. I remember I used to white rice cooked for 1-1.5 hours and still had that unpleasant fullness in stomach almost at once after a meal. I might try to use some maltose, as it is relatively easy to breakdown, even more glucose( dextrose) maybe lactose. I'm only afraid of blood sugar spikes

 

[Jacob28]

Also I'm worry about ''feeding'' my microbiota with all this sugar and get gas and cramps, lactic acid, instead of energy. Hopefully some very simple sugars, except fructose of course, give me quite much energy and all this f***ing lactic acid will disapear. Then I try some desiccated thyroid.

 

[milkboi]

Also I'm worry about ''feeding'' my microbiota with all this sugar and get gas and cramps, lactic acid, instead of energy. Hopefully some very simple sugars, except fructose of course, give me quite much energy and all this f***ing lactic acid will disapear. Then I try some desiccated thyroid.

Have you taken antibiotics before?

 

[Jacob28]

Before, you mean in last years, or months? I was taking some antibiotics on my own- tetracycline does nothing(30mg to even 250 a day for 1-2weeks) thymol which is really strong(100mg-200-400mg) it was just irrating my gut at times and nothing else, digestion the same, problems with fructose- same painful intestinal cramps, flatulence, lots of gas. Cramps can be particularly painful. Also morning sickness, nauseous all the time( empty or full stomach) remains. I'm just sick and tired of all these symptoms and no improvement. I only want to sleep or get stoned.
Also I think lactose is not giving me the symptoms like fructose, I think...

 

[Inaut]

Starch gives me feeling of excess fullness in stomach. I get indigestion almost after every meal. I can't eat almost any vegetables, fruits cooked/canned, only in small amounts. ANY bananas( they're probably the worst), melons, watermelons, small amounts of well cooked apples without skin are OK, but they're acidic- my teeth are already in a bad shape( no cavities or decay, just run-down). So, I can kill all bacteriae/fungus etc. and still got that terrible symptoms with fructose/ sucrose? So I don't ''assimilate'' sugar well and get lactic acid instead? I'm just cut up and broken. I can't get energy from basic source.
Cascara helps with bowel movements, sometimes i have to use some magnesium chloride. Activated charcoal gives me only constipation. I'm trying to use lots of gellatin, but it creates lots of smelly and painful gas. I can try pyrucet, but it might be expensive and hard to find in my country. I already have little money because of all these bloody supplements which don't help at all.

I've been filling OO capsules with malic acid powder and taking one with meals. Probably a little bit more then 500mg. I find it helps with digestion a lot. I like ACV but don't like the potential enamel damage I get/got from it so ive switch to malic acid. Also I take it pre workout. I dig

 

[Jacob28]

Today I got some dextrose, I'm going to use like 200g-300g daily, with some lactose- maybe-50g, small amounts of sucrose - 50g-100g

Also aspirin 0.5g-1g, dessicated thyroid - 2 tablets, some AC, caffeine( I believe Ray Peat recommend about 3mg per 1kg) 180mg daily
Niacynamide- maybe 500mg up to 1g, divided doses of course.
Salt, calcium, potassium and magnesium.
Some vitamin E
2-3 carrots a day
gelatin only 2-3 tsp
some skimmed milk- 1-2 cups
coconut oil-1-2 tsp
chicken liver, beef stomachs, skimmed bone broth, some beef meat, fruit juice(1-1.5 l )
I think that's it.

 

[Jacob28]

I was trying to dramatically increase my salt intake for a few last days. Yesterday I took like 20g and I believe my face is much puffier|( especially eyes).
I it is also some fat, which I gain quite much( 49kg- 108 lbs to 132 lbs- 60 kg, I'm 5'5) in last 6 months. And I'm really not happy with it. My face became rounder and... just less attractive. I don't see much improvement with adrenaline and sleep but it was just few weeks with just ''little'' higher salt and last two with really more. I may try even more 20-50g and with some bicarbonate sodium( perhaps 3-4 tsp?) to also increase CO2 which must be terrible low( huge air hunger).

Do I need much other electrolytes( potassium, magnesium, calcium) or just high doses of calcium, some potassium( juices, a bit of supplements), magnesium chloride ???

I'm often very thirsty and can quench it! It's really frustrating and unpleasant. I get thistier the more I drink!

And why I got fatter from eating more, but don't get ANY more energy. I desperately want to see any improvement but I'm apparently doing very little.

 

[Hans]

Your body might take about a week or so to adapt to a new level of salt intake so it's understandable if you get water retention. Lowering cortisol can help reduce the water retention. To increase your CO2 and energy, try some high dose vitamin B1 to lower lactate and increase ATP and CO2.

Excess cortisol and serotonin will just convert the sugar and carbs to fat and make you fatter. Lowering them will help.