Is zero starch only possible for milk drinkers?

[Sefton10]

A lot of what ray says makes sense, but at the same time some of his own personal choices make 0 sense from a rational point of view (as in i've never heard of any other human trying doing similar things). such as drinking 50 cups of coffee a day when he was really hypothyroid, eating 8000 calories before thyroid cause he was burning it all off with adrenaline and lactic acid , drinking gallons of milk and OJ as staples. he's definitely way out on the fringe of life, both in his lifestyle and intelligence

That doesn’t make him wrong though, it just means that was what worked for him with his own unique biography and nutritional history. I honestly cannot even imagine what drinking 50 cups of coffee in a day would be like, 2 makes me feel like crap! But for him, for whatever reason, it worked, and he can then rationalise that experience back through a theoretical lens. The danger is others with an entirely different biography and history see that as a rule then climb aboard the coffee or thyroid or OJ train then wonder why it screws them up.

What I really like about Ray is although it’s what he’s probably best known for now, nutrition is just one lens through which he explains his values, beliefs, philosophy etc. I re-read this article yesterday, I probably skipped over it in the past as there is only a small bit on nutrition in there, but reading it now it just shows the bigger picture he is seeing and it resonates far more How do you know? Students, patients, and discovery

I’m conscious I’m derailing the OP’s original focus on milk now so apologies!

 

[Lokzo]

I'm in the same boat as you, starch causes me high serotonin symptoms. There is no way around this.

 

[Blaze]

I'm in the same boat as you, starch causes me high serotonin symptoms. There is no way around this.

I guess that would be because 80 percent of our serotonin is produced by cells in the gut and starch apparently inflames the gut causing irritated cells to produce serotonin in excess.

I know Ray is adamantly against starches or anything that inflames the gut. In some individuals they also provoke auto immune reactions that are quite extreme. He also has said many times that starch particles enter the bloodstream, are larger than red blood cells and block capillary circulation in tissues and even cause nests of dead cells. Sounds scary.......

I myself , don't see how starch particles can make it into the blood stream unless the starch causes a compromise in the barrier function of the intestine by irritation/inflammation thus allowing undigested starch particles to enter and circulate in the blood.

Some people do great on starch (I am from New York , populated by many Italians who eat tons of starch in the form of Pasta and bread) ......

I know a 104 year old woman who basically lives on cereal and is still going strong...............

I now live in San Diego (actually a 3 minute drive puts me in Santee where Ray Peat was born) a place where Mexican food like flour and corn tortillas and rice totally dominate and so we eat a lot of starch here too. Perhaps for some people --- they do not generate an autoimmune response to the starch protein, and also some of us are fortunate to completely be able to digest the starch particles efficiently and never suffer a compromised barrier function.

 

[meatbag]

I guess that would be because 80 percent of our serotonin is produced by cells in the gut and starch apparently inflames the gut causing irritated cells to produce serotonin in excess.

I know Ray is adamantly against starches or anything that inflames the gut. In some individuals they also provoke auto immune reactions that are quite extreme. He also has said many times that starch particles enter the bloodstream, are larger than red blood cells and block capillary circulation in tissues and even cause nests of dead cells. Sounds scary.......

I myself , don't see how starch particles can make it into the blood stream unless the starch causes a compromise in the barrier function of the intestine by irritation/inflammation thus allowing undigested starch particles to enter and circulate in the blood.

Some people do great on starch (I am from New York , populated by many Italians who eat tons of starch in the form of Pasta and bread) ......

I know a 104 year old woman who basically lives on cereal and is still going strong...............

I now live in San Diego (actually a 3 minute drive puts me in Santee where Ray Peat was born) a place where Mexican food like flour and corn tortillas and rice totally dominate and so we eat a lot of starch here too. Perhaps for some people --- they do not generate an autoimmune response to the starch protein, and also some of us are fortunate to completely be able to digest the starch particles efficiently and never suffer a compromised barrier function.

To be fair the nixtamilization of the corn like in tortillas leads the starch being predigested and there was no evidence of persorption

"When I read Gerhard Volkheimer's work on persorption 40 years ago I started thinking about it and I noticed that people often had arthritis symptoms that increased after eating beans or potatoes or uncooked starchy vegetables. I have experimented with increasing saturated fats and/or sugars to replace the calories. Thoroughly nixtamalized corn seems to be pretty safe."

“Persorption refers to a process in which relatively large particles pass through the intact wall of the intestine and enter the blood or lymphatic vessels. It can be demonstrated easily, but food regulators prefer to act as though it didn’t exist. The doctrine that polymers–gums, starches, peptides, polyester fat substitutes–and other particulate substances can be safely added to food because they are “too large to be absorbed” is very important to the food industry and its shills.

When the bowel is inflamed, toxins are absorbed. The natural bacterial endotoxin produces many of the same inflammatory effects as the food additive, carrageenan. Like inflammatory bowel disease, the incidence of liver tumors and cirrhosis has increased rapidly. Liver damage leads to hormonal imbalance. Carrageenan produces inflammation and immunodeficiency, synergizing with estrogen, endotoxin and unsaturated fatty acids.”

“In the presence of bacterial endotoxin, respiratory energy production fails in the cells lining the intestine. Nitric oxide is probably the main mediator of this effect.”

“Intestinal inflammation is often behind recurrent tooth infectons, and a daily raw carrot can make a big difference (along with avoiding legumes, undercooked starches and raw or undercooked vegetables).”

“Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications….”

“Tiny particles of insoluble materials — clay, starch, soot, bacteria — are all potential sources of serious inflammatory reactions, and the ultra-small particles are potentially ultra-numerous and harder to avoid.”

“Around 1988 I read Gerhard Volkheimer’s persorption article, and after doing some experiments with tortillas and masa, I stopped eating all starch except for those, then eventually I stopped those. Besides grains of starch entering the blood stream, lymph, and cerebral spinal fluid, starch feeds bacteria, increasing endotoxin and serotonin.”

“For people with really sensitive intestines or bad bacteria, starch should be zero.”
Ray Peat, PhD – Concerns with Starches – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

 

[Blaze]

To be fair the nixtamilization of the corn like in tortillas leads the starch being predigested and there was no evidence of persorption

"When I read Gerhard Volkheimer's work on persorption 40 years ago I started thinking about it and I noticed that people often had arthritis symptoms that increased after eating beans or potatoes or uncooked starchy vegetables. I have experimented with increasing saturated fats and/or sugars to replace the calories. Thoroughly nixtamalized corn seems to be pretty safe."

“Persorption refers to a process in which relatively large particles pass through the intact wall of the intestine and enter the blood or lymphatic vessels. It can be demonstrated easily, but food regulators prefer to act as though it didn’t exist. The doctrine that polymers–gums, starches, peptides, polyester fat substitutes–and other particulate substances can be safely added to food because they are “too large to be absorbed” is very important to the food industry and its shills.

When the bowel is inflamed, toxins are absorbed. The natural bacterial endotoxin produces many of the same inflammatory effects as the food additive, carrageenan. Like inflammatory bowel disease, the incidence of liver tumors and cirrhosis has increased rapidly. Liver damage leads to hormonal imbalance. Carrageenan produces inflammation and immunodeficiency, synergizing with estrogen, endotoxin and unsaturated fatty acids.”

“In the presence of bacterial endotoxin, respiratory energy production fails in the cells lining the intestine. Nitric oxide is probably the main mediator of this effect.”

“Intestinal inflammation is often behind recurrent tooth infectons, and a daily raw carrot can make a big difference (along with avoiding legumes, undercooked starches and raw or undercooked vegetables).”

“Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications….”

“Tiny particles of insoluble materials — clay, starch, soot, bacteria — are all potential sources of serious inflammatory reactions, and the ultra-small particles are potentially ultra-numerous and harder to avoid.”

“Around 1988 I read Gerhard Volkheimer’s persorption article, and after doing some experiments with tortillas and masa, I stopped eating all starch except for those, then eventually I stopped those. Besides grains of starch entering the blood stream, lymph, and cerebral spinal fluid, starch feeds bacteria, increasing endotoxin and serotonin.”

“For people with really sensitive intestines or bad bacteria, starch should be zero.”
Ray Peat, PhD – Concerns with Starches – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Great quotes, thanks.

Just a side note, corn tortillas used to be safer. Getting pretty rare to find true corn tortillas thoroughly processed by nixtamilization of the corn. You have to actively seek it out. The majority now don't use that process. And flour tortillas have never been good for you like corn tortillas used to be.

Also, I seem to remember Ray said eating any starch together with good fat (butter/coconut oil) delays digestion and the starch is digested more completely and causes way less issues. Perhaps somebody can confirm that.......................

 

[schultz]

I've never seen the attraction of constantly having to have juice or milk or soda on hand all day to avoid crashing, intuitively that just doesn't seem right and I prefer set meals without snacking.

I believe when your thyroid is good you can go many hours without food and feel fine.

Personally I sip on lattes all day, but that's because I enjoy it, not because I will crash without them.

My wife gets annoyed with me when she asks if I have had anything to eat and I say "Yah I had a latte". "That's not food, it's liquid!"

Also, I seem to remember Ray said eating any starch together with fat (butter/coconut oil) delays digestion and the starch is digested more completely and causes less issues. Perhaps somebody can confirm that.......................

He did say that.

 

[meatbag]

Replacing starch with sucrose increases metabolism, prevent obesity​

Replacing starch with sucrose increases metabolism, prevent obesity – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

 

[johnsmith]

No milk these days.

OJ
Meat
Seafood
Eggs
Parmigiano
Honey

What kind of OJ do you drink? Are you avoiding other fresh and frozen fruits? If so, why?

 

[Soren]

I add sugar, casein powder and salt to my milk protein shakes and find that is an easy way to get sufficient calories.

 

[Vileplume]

I honestly cannot even imagine what drinking 50 cups of coffee in a day would be like, 2 makes me feel like crap!

I don’t mean to further detail the thread, but I recently increased my coffee intake from 0 to 7 cups a day, and it actually lowered my adrenaline. It’s really helped so far. Go figure.

 

[Callmestar]

Wrong thread. Apologies.

 

[MidBicep]

I can't tolerate milk at all nowadays (used to do a bit better with it a couple months when it was warmer, but never without any problems) but I can tolerate 1kg of Greek yogurt and up to 400g of feta cheese a day. Greek yogurt, feta cheese and a tiny bit of liver are my protein and fat sources for the day and the rest is table sugar and coke.

 

[TheBeard]

What kind of OJ do you drink? Are you avoiding other fresh and frozen fruits? If so, why?

Because of fiber

 

[ArtIt]

The only starch that I eat is either oats, or potatoes before bed. Otherwise my sleep is not good. Milk does not help me with the sleep. 1L a day of milk is ok for me, if more I develop the lactose intolerance.

 

[meatbag]

The only starch that I eat is either oats, or potatoes before bed. Otherwise my sleep is not good. Milk does not help me with the sleep. 1L a day of milk is ok for me, if more I develop the lactose intolerance.

have you tried mixing sugar with the milk to taste?

 

[ArtIt]

have you tried mixing sugar with the milk to taste?

Yes, I usually add sugar to milk during the day, but before bed, milk, or milk with sugar don't help me with the sleep.

 

[Charger]

I would love to do true zero starch, but I still haven't found a way to get restorative sleep without it. I just feel wired until I eat something starchy.

Yes, I usually add sugar to milk during the day, but before bed, milk, or milk with sugar don't help me with the sleep.

 

[meatbag]

Yes, I usually add sugar to milk during the day, but before bed, milk, or milk with sugar don't help me with the sleep.

what is your daily sodium consumption?

I've noticed that any starch desires are resolved by sodium. try eating starch without any salt, there is no appeal there