Is zero starch only possible for milk drinkers?

metabolizm

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Is "zero starch" only possible for milk drinkers?

Ray himself consumes at least 2L of milk every day, and frequently recommends this amount. Not everyone can handle so much milk, never mind craving it in the first place.

Whenever I try to quit starch I end up losing weight dramatically. I can only tolerate and enjoy about a pint of milk a day, so it's hard to find the calories elsewhere, and to feel truly satiated.

I ask because starch - especially in the form of grains - seems to pose its own problems for me, often giving me endotoxin symptoms even when well cooked. I think I'd be better without it, or with much less of it. Ray has said that people with intestinal issues - like me - should stop eating starch altogether.

Are there any others, like me, who avoid starch, are not drinking great quantities of milk, but are meeting calorie demands?
 

ursidae

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There’s a group of people that can’t do dairy and starch who eat honey, fruit and meat. If fructose is a problem too then you’re left with the keto diet. You need to have stronger than average digestion to handle that diet
 

OccamzRazer

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I think zero starch can be achieved in plenty of other ways.

For a while I was eating 2 containers of 5% Greek yogurt per day and no milk.

Now I eat 1 container of yogurt and 1 liter of milk per day, though, which seems to be a sweet spot.

The meat + honey diet might be physiologically helpful, but IMO it's inconvenient. One needs something to put the honey in/on! lol
 

Jennifer

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There’s a group of people that can’t do dairy and starch who eat honey, fruit and meat.
This.

Just prior to reintroducing dairy last May, I consumed a starch-free and dairy-free diet. I got my carbs from fruit and to a lesser extent coconut water, palm sugar, maple syrup and honey, and my protein from seafood (shellfish), marine collagen and eggs. I was averaging close to 3,000 calories daily.
 

ursidae

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This.

Just prior to reintroducing dairy last May, I consumed a starch-free and dairy-free diet. I got my carbs from fruit and to a lesser extent coconut water, palm sugar, maple syrup and honey, and my protein from seafood (shellfish), marine collagen and eggs. I was averaging close to 3,000 calories daily.
Before you breakthrough in may, when you reintroduced dairy and starch which one did you have a more severe reaction to?
 

laleto12

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the problem is how the hell am i going to satiate myself without dairy and starch?
Im very ok without dairy which gives me depression but without starch I cant satiate myself.

One can only eat sugar to some degree.
 

Nomane Euger

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the problem is how the hell am i going to satiate myself without dairy and starch?
Im very ok without dairy which gives me depression but without starch I cant satiate myself.

One can only eat sugar to some degree.
It depend what you are referring to for satiation,being full in your stomach or being satisfy overall and not craving anything anymore,if you want both from my experience grass fed grass finished lamb/beef suet will put a nice rock in your stomach you won’t think about food’anymore
 

Sefton10

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In my experience it can be done without milk but not dairy full stop. Skyr and dairy fat (cream mainly, some butter) are good foods for me. Cheese can be helpful too. Without dairy you get into the whole calcium/phosphorus ratio issue too unless supplementing, which can be another minefield. One thing I have definitely realised is when starch goes down, sat fat has to go up, there’s just no way around it.
 

jet9

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I don't do any dairy, and can go starch free only if i increase fats - basically diet of fruits, honey, beef/lamb, marrow, tallow, organs, seafood plus a bit of well cooked veggies. If i want to decrease fats (with out adding dairy) i can do this only with adding starch. (tubers work best for me, rice/grains do not). Otherwise i am always hungry.
 

gaze

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This.

Just prior to reintroducing dairy last May, I consumed a starch-free and dairy-free diet. I got my carbs from fruit and to a lesser extent coconut water, palm sugar, maple syrup and honey, and my protein from seafood (shellfish), marine collagen and eggs. I was averaging close to 3,000 calories daily.
thats extremely impressive. Im a guy, 6 feet tall, and I could barely get above 2200-2500 calories without starch, and that was with eating a ton of dairy. Idk how some people have the stomach to consume so much fruit. a meal of meat + OJ feels way less easy on the stomach to me than a meal of meat and rice + OJ on the side or something when calories were the exact same. for context, even 8 cups of OJ and 8 cups of low fat milk is only 1600 calories, and that alone takes a major hit on the digestive track. i know you eat more solid fruits and sugars though, which definately makes it easier. Its just hard to find good solid ripe fruits
 

OccamzRazer

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thats extremely impressive. Im a guy, 6 feet tall, and I could barely get above 2200-2500 calories without starch, and that was with eating a ton of dairy. Idk how some people have the stomach to consume so much fruit. a meal of meat + OJ feels way less easy on the stomach to me than a meal of meat and rice + OJ on the side or something when calories were the exact same. for context, even 8 cups of OJ and 8 cups of low fat milk is only 1600 calories, and that alone takes a major hit on the digestive track. i know you eat more solid fruits and sugars though, which definately makes it easier. Its just hard to find good solid ripe fruits
It is indeed impressive - though some people just have faster metabolisms than others. Have you tried eating more with the help of dried fruit, maple syrup, or honey?

It's very possible to boost metabolic rate dramatically over time, especially if following Peat principles like minimising PUFA. Avoiding starches may also help, if only indirectly, if said avoidance leads to better digestion and higher energy levels.

I'm the same height as you, and eat between 4,000 and 5,000 calories per day just to stay at ~177 pounds.
 

gaze

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It is indeed impressive - though some people just have faster metabolisms than others. Have you tried eating more with the help of dried fruit, maple syrup, or honey?

It's very possible to boost metabolic rate dramatically over time, especially if following Peat principles like minimising PUFA. Avoiding starches may also help, if only indirectly, if said avoidance leads to better digestion and higher energy levels.

I'm the same height as you, and eat between 4,000 and 5,000 calories per day just to stay at ~177 pounds.
the thing is when I cut starch, I fall into a weird catagory where I struggle to eat enough, but I also need the food because I end up losing too much weight on no starch. So I always feel like im playing "catch up" with my metabolism on no starch always grazing to keep my blood sugar up after its falling, where as when I can eat a huge meal with rice and meat it feels like im always one step ahead if that makes sense. and I dont feel the need to always eat. if I try to eat a huge meal of sugars like maple syrup or honey, I feel like I end up with a net negative because the sugar speeds metabolism, which makes it harder to put on weight. While as a big starch meal feels like I can eat a lot of it without it being stimulating so I can eat less and maintain weight. I think it's unique for me though because i'm overly skinny, I think less starch would be better for overweight people. Im 6 feet 150 btw, 170 would be my ideal weight but I struggle to put it on. I think when I try to over eat on sugar it gets burned off as lactic acid/ adrenaline, while when I overeat on starch its more likely to increase mass, both muscle and fat
 

Jennifer

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Before you breakthrough in may, when you reintroduced dairy and starch which one did you have a more severe reaction to?

Both caused gastritis, cramping, bloating, brain fog, and depression, but starch triggered hypoglycemia and severe acid reflux that would last all day and into the night—I’d wake up every night choking on acid and needing to pee—and dairy calmed the reflux but caused a bleeding rash, especially raw and ferment dairy, that left some scarring that is still healing today. When I cleared the SIBO, I stopped having symptoms with dairy, but still suffered all the same symptoms with starch until I was on the proper dose of thyroid.

thats extremely impressive. Im a guy, 6 feet tall, and I could barely get above 2200-2500 calories without starch, and that was with eating a ton of dairy. Idk how some people have the stomach to consume so much fruit. a meal of meat + OJ feels way less easy on the stomach to me than a meal of meat and rice + OJ on the side or something when calories were the exact same. for context, even 8 cups of OJ and 8 cups of low fat milk is only 1600 calories, and that alone takes a major hit on the digestive track. i know you eat more solid fruits and sugars though, which definately makes it easier. Its just hard to find good solid ripe fruits

I no longer see this as a good thing since I now understand what all the fiber was doing to my gut (and overall health) but for the majority of my life, I’ve eaten some form of a vegetarian diet so my stomach was used to a lot of volume, especially the years I ate a fruitarian diet since I consumed most of my fruit whole. Add to that how catabolic I was prior to starting on thyroid—my caloric needs were pretty insane IMO for someone my size who’s also relatively sedentary.

It definitely can be difficult finding quality ripe fruit. I know where to find a consistent and constant supply of it, but I’d have to sell an organ or my first born to have it as a staple carb source. That’s one of the main reasons why dates have been a staple of mine over the years. Same with melon, though, it also happens to be one of my favorite fruits. With that said, if I enjoyed starch as much as fruit and thrived on it, I would have no qualms about having it as a staple carb in my diet.
 

Sefton10

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I think when I try to over eat on sugar it gets burned off as lactic acid/ adrenaline, while when I overeat on starch its more likely to increase mass, both muscle and fat
Have you ever done it with higher sat fat, @gaze? That's been a revelation for me in the last week. No starch, sugar from fruit, dairy, maple syrup and more sat fat in the form of double cream and cocoa butter. I've finally been able to feel satiated and go 4 or 5 hours without needing to eat every 2. No starch low fat was the same as you describe for me, I felt much better in terms of bloating etc., but I would just burn through sugar too fast into lactic acid and feel adrenalised constantly therefore never feeling calm/full. The more sugar I'd eat the worse I'd feel. The Randle Cycle scare stories had always put me off eating too much sugar with sat fat, so I'm interested how it impacts my weight/body comp moving forward.
 

gaze

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Have you ever done it with higher sat fat, @gaze? That's been a revelation for me in the last week. No starch, sugar from fruit, dairy, maple syrup and more sat fat in the form of double cream and cocoa butter. I've finally been able to feel satiated and go 4 or 5 hours without needing to eat every 2. No starch low fat was the same as you describe for me, I felt much better in terms of bloating etc., but I would just burn through sugar too fast into lactic acid and feel adrenalised constantly therefore never feeling calm/full. The more sugar I'd eat the worse I'd feel. The Randle Cycle scare stories had always put me off eating too much sugar with sat fat, so I'm interested how it impacts my weight/body comp moving forward.
whats your macros approximately? I was still drinking low fat milk, but I was having a pint of ice cream a day, and 3 ounces of cheese. 0 weight gain though, I was actually losing weight which is why I had to change it up. I may try it again but spacing out by using whole milk as a staple. Basically I was having milk and OJ throughout the day, occasional cheese and meat meals here and there, and then large servings of ice cream. I didn't really feel that good (adrenaline type things) and I was slowly losing weight, so I changed it up to include basmati rice and potatoes. so far I haven't had any endotoxin symtpoms, and my tongue is fully pink nowadays, except occasionally it gets some white sediment so I know i still have some bacterial things going on.
 

Sefton10

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whats your macros approximately? I was still drinking low fat milk, but I was having a pint of ice cream a day, and 3 ounces of cheese. 0 weight gain though, I was actually losing weight which is why I had to change it up. I may try it again but spacing out by using whole milk as a staple. Basically I was having milk and OJ throughout the day, occasional cheese and meat meals here and there, and then large servings of ice cream. I didn't really feel that good (adrenaline type things) and I was slowly losing weight, so I changed it up to include basmati rice and potatoes. so far I haven't had any endotoxin symtpoms, and my tongue is fully pink nowadays, except occasionally it gets some white sediment so I know i still have some bacterial things going on.
For the last week roughly 150F, 150P and 200C. I find dairy fat really satiating along with extra cocoa butter - fatty meat has never satiated me in the same way and too much tallow or butter gives me nausea. I've actually been craving meat/fish way less.

A favorite meal is something like Skyr with stewed apple (or other cooked fruit) and 50g of organic double cream. Followed by warm semi-skimmed milk with cacao, cocoa butter and maple syrup. That will keep me going for 4-5 hours easy, which was impossible when I was eating higher carb/lower fat. Very heavy on the dairy though so would be a no go for anyone with dairy issues.

I was eating maybe 300-350g of carbs and around 80 or 90g of fat previously. Protein has always been pretty consistent around 140-150g. All I've done really is reduce carbs and replace them with saturated fat. No starch at all. The odd bit of veg from cooked courgette and mushrooms. The occasional raw carrot with bone broth. 3 eggs a day. I think the reduction in fibre I was getting from some fruits (e.g., dates to get more calories) has helped too. Nutritional yeast for B vits, a daily magnesium supp and K2 every few days.
 

gaze

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I was eating maybe 300-350g of carbs and around 80 or 90g of fat previously. Protein has always been pretty consistent around 140-150g. All I've done really is reduce carbs and replace them with saturated fat. No starch at all.
I was eating exactly these macros as well, maybe a little less protein. I think my macros now are similar except a little higher starch. Its interesting how Rays able to do around 400g carbs, 140 ish protein, with around 60g of fat, and 0 starch. Im pretty sure he drinks 2 quarts of milk and 3 quarts of OJ per day, which I cant understand how he does day in and day out. Do you supplement thyroid daily ? I may try the higher fat low starch soon, except im sticking with the starch for now to see if im able to gain weight at all.
 

Sefton10

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I was eating exactly these macros as well, maybe a little less protein. I think my macros now are similar except a little higher starch. Its interesting how Rays able to do around 400g carbs, 140 ish protein, with around 60g of fat, and 0 starch. Im pretty sure he drinks 2 quarts of milk and 3 quarts of OJ per day, which I cant understand how he does day in and day out. Do you supplement thyroid daily ? I may try the higher fat low starch soon, except im sticking with the starch for now to see if im able to gain weight at all.
I think a big confounder with Ray is thyroid and copious amounts of coffee/caffeine! I don't take thyroid or drink coffee. Eating that way with those macros and all that liquid would destroy me, I think I'd literally turn into an adrenaline factory and self combust! I've never seen the attraction of constantly having to have juice or milk or soda on hand all day to avoid crashing, intuitively that just doesn't seem right and I prefer set meals without snacking.

I've gone back and forth with starch but on average I just do better without it. I enjoy eating it (pasta, rice, porridge was always a staple growing up) but never feel great after it now - brain foggy, stomach full/bloated but not satiated and the inevitable crash and hunger within a couple of hours. I know @CLASH eats similar F and P to what I've been trying but MUCH higher carbs from fruit/juice and without dairy and he maintains his weight. A few others are doing similar levels of fat with much fewer carbs/protein. It's all horses for course and figuring out the best individual combo I suppose. I definitely think the type of sat fat is likely very individual too, like I say cream and cocoa butter is WAY better than tallow/butter for me whereas I know others are the exact opposite.
 

gaze

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I think a big confounder with Ray is thyroid and copious amounts of coffee/caffeine! I don't take thyroid or drink coffee. Eating that way with those macros and all that liquid would destroy me, I think I'd literally turn into an adrenaline factory and self combust! I've never seen the attraction of constantly having to have juice or milk or soda on hand all day to avoid crashing, intuitively that just doesn't seem right and I prefer set meals without snacking.

I've gone back and forth with starch but on average I just do better without it. I enjoy eating it (pasta, rice, porridge was always a staple growing up) but never feel great after it now - brain foggy, stomach full/bloated but not satiated and the inevitable crash and hunger within a couple of hours. I know @CLASH eats similar F and P to what I've been trying but MUCH higher carbs from fruit/juice and without dairy and he maintains his weight. A few others are doing similar levels of fat with much fewer carbs/protein. It's all horses for course and figuring out the best individual combo I suppose. I definitely think the type of sat fat is likely very individual too, like I say cream and cocoa butter is WAY better than tallow/butter for me whereas I know others are the exact opposite.
we seem to have very similar experiences. i share the same thoughts about the liquid high sugar diet, it always ends in an adrenaline storm without thyroid/coffee. at this point it's just a never ending experimentation for me. A lot of what ray says makes sense, but at the same time some of his own personal choices make 0 sense from a rational point of view (as in i've never heard of any other human trying doing similar things). such as drinking 50 cups of coffee a day when he was really hypothyroid, eating 8000 calories before thyroid cause he was burning it all off with adrenaline and lactic acid , drinking gallons of milk and OJ as staples. he's definitely way out on the fringe of life, both in his lifestyle and intelligence. his overall theories i've found to be 100% correct for the most part, most of its scientifically indisputable such as thyroid, PTH, vitamin D etc. it's just a matter of fixing digestion which is the center of it all, where people begin to differ because of different intestinal bacteria and history.
 
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