Is Total T3 To Be As High As Possible?

[thegiantess]

I reference to lab range? I can't find any place where Peat has said what is optimal. Do I just assume as high as possible?

 

[dookie]

@thegiantess
Labs don't really mean much. Focus on signs and symptoms

 

[thegiantess]

@thegiantess
Labs don't really mean much. Focus on signs and symptoms

So not an answer. But thanks.

 

[Mittir]

Here is the transcript of the interview.
Environmental Enrichment & The Brain - 2013 KMUD

RP: They changed the normal level. Previous to the use of pure thyroxin there was a very slight difference, like a 4:1 or 10:1 ratio of thyroxin to T3 in the blood, but now they consider 50:1 to be normal.

Caller: So are you saying that test, the blood test, isn’t reliable for me to know?

RP: The blood test has been standardised on a population of people who have been using only thyroxin, rather than the natural thyroid or people who have no thyroid problem at all.

Caller: Well, now if I took the Armour that has the T3 also, does that mean that I am going to, you know, make better use of it?

RP: Well, it’s exactly the proportion that your own gland secretes and then the liver, if your liver is responding to the active T3 secreted by the gland, the liver will go ahead and converts the rest of the T4 to T3. But if you take Armour thyroid and metabolise it perfectly, your blood test is going to show excess above normal T3 because they’ve standardised the test to say that ‘normal’ is what is produced by taking thyroxin.

 

[ilovethesea]

"The idea of measuring the "free hormone" is that it supposedly represents the biologically active hormone, but in fact it is easier to measure the biological effects than it is to measure this hypothetical entity. Who cares how many angels might be dancing on the head of a pin, if the pin is effective in keeping your shirt closed?"

Thyroid: Therapies, Confusion, and Fraud

 

[thegiantess]

can we just pretend that it is a valuable measure? I have seen quotes where he has said it's useful. So I get its not end all be all, but for people like me who don't have symptoms, but like to bio hack( it's nice to have numbers. I like numbers.

 

[tara]

can we just pretend that it is a valuable measure? I have seen quotes where he has said it's useful. So I get its not end all be all, but for people like me who don't have symptoms, but like to bio hack( it's nice to have numbers. I like numbers.

like a 4:1 or 10:1 ratio of thyroxin to T3 in the blood,

Do you like these numbers?

 

[thegiantess]

Do you like these numbers?

So, ratio of t4 to t3? There's something I can work with! Thanks for pointing it out, I misread the first time.

 

[thegiantess]

Hm if I did the conversion correctly concerning one test being in Ng and another in mcg, my ratio of t4 to t3 is 60. Perhaps I did something wrong? Thinking out loud here.

 

[narouz]

Here is the transcript of the interview.
Environmental Enrichment & The Brain - 2013 KMUD

RP: They changed the normal level. Previous to the use of pure thyroxin there was a very slight difference, like a 4:1 or 10:1 ratio of thyroxin to T3 in the blood, but now they consider 50:1 to be normal.

Caller: So are you saying that test, the blood test, isn’t reliable for me to know?

RP: The blood test has been standardised on a population of people who have been using only thyroxin, rather than the natural thyroid or people who have no thyroid problem at all.

Caller: Well, now if I took the Armour that has the T3 also, does that mean that I am going to, you know, make better use of it?

RP: Well, it’s exactly the proportion that your own gland secretes and then the liver, if your liver is responding to the active T3 secreted by the gland, the liver will go ahead and converts the rest of the T4 to T3. But if you take Armour thyroid and metabolise it perfectly, your blood test is going to show excess above normal T3 because they’ve standardised the test to say that ‘normal’ is what is produced by taking thyroxin.

Just trying to iron out a little detail here...
When Peat says they've "standardised the test to say that ‘normal’ is what is produced by taking thyroxin"...

Let's say you get a T3 or FT3 lab test.
Your results will be accompanied by a range--a range based upon other people's results.
Now, how many of those "other people" are taking synthetic T4?
I would guess a fairly large percentage...but not all, right?
I mean, doctors give patients thyroid tests for different reasons--not always just to patients already on thyroid.
I would think quite a high percentage would just be diagnostic--to see IF a patient could me having thyroid issues.
But point still well taken:
that test result ranges will be heavily skewed by patients on T4

Maybe I'm talking about something a bit different than Peat is, though.

 

[Birdie]

@thegiantess
You got me interested so I looked at mine.
My report uses different units for T4 and T3 in the reference range too.
The lab reports my T3 as out of range high.
And my doc made some negative comment as I recall.

How did you do the conversion on those units.

 

[Blossom]

And my doc made some negative comment as I recall.

I saw this on one of the RP Facebook groups and wondered if this was what your doc was insinuating by his negative comment?

 

[thegiantess]

@thegiantess
You got me interested so I looked at mine.
My report uses different units for T4 and T3 in the reference range too.
The lab reports my T3 as out of range high.
And my doc made some negative comment as I recall.

How did you do the conversion on those units.

For me the t3 was Ng/dl and the other was mcg/dl. So i just used a conversation calculator online and then divided by the t3 value. Does that make sense?

 

[Birdie]

I saw this on one of the RP Facebook groups and wondered if this was what your doc was insinuating by his negative comment?

Oh, this could be the sort of thing. My husband just noticed he has a strange hypothyroid dx ("Facetious Hypothyroidism") from his last exam. He's been using thyroid for about 20 years. Was very ill until we started him on it. But, hey, his tests show more T3 than the latest Normals.

 

[Birdie]

For me the t3 was Ng/dl and the other was mcg/dl. So i just used a conversation calculator online and then divided by the t3 value. Does that make sense?

Yes, that's the simplest way to do it for sure. But feeling lazy...

 

[ravster02]

did you get reverse t3 tested? that's way more important than t4 and t3 values.

 

[ilovethesea]

"The liver has to convert T4 to T3 for it to be effective. It needs glucose and selenium to make the conversion. Adequate protein, at least 80 grams per day, is necessary. Sea food, once a week will provide selenium, two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice would provide many of the other essential nutrients. Taking T4 at bedtime sometimes is helpful. Most people feel best on a ratio of T4:T3 of 4:1 or less. Checking the relaxation rate of the Achilles reflex is a quick way to check the effect of the thyroid on your nerves and muscles; the relaxation should be instantaneous, loose and floppy." - Ray Peat

 

[narouz]

"The liver has to convert T4 to T3 for it to be effective. It needs glucose and selenium to make the conversion. Adequate protein, at least 80 grams per day, is necessary. Sea food, once a week will provide selenium, two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice would provide many of the other essential nutrients. Taking T4 at bedtime sometimes is helpful. Most people feel best on a ratio of T4:T3 of 4:1 or less. Checking the relaxation rate of the Achilles reflex is a quick way to check the effect of the thyroid on your nerves and muscles; the relaxation should be instantaneous, loose and floppy." - Ray Peat

Good data points.
Also--and because I'm wrestling now with this very issue--
on the title of the thread: "Is total T3 to be as high as possible?"
I would say, no.
I do think there is a danger in going too high with thyroid hormone supplementation--
this from personal experience.
In general, and in following what seems to be thyroid-centric emphasis by Peat,
I've run into trouble.
That is to say: if your pulse and temp are not ideal,
the correct response is not always to take higher doses of thyroid--T4, T3, or T4/T3.
Peat himself has said that too-high doses (I think he was referring to T3 in this instance)
of hormone will, in effect, have the opposite (not pro-metabolic) effect;
the body will deactivate the excess hormone.
I'm not sure if Peat uses this language,
but some say the excess hormone "de-sensitives" "the receptors"
(I know Peat wouldn't say receptors, but he might say that the whole cell--seen as a receptor--
becomes de-sensitized.)

I also have come to doubt my own ability to guide my dosage
based on temps, pulse, how I feel, etc.
Some may be better at this than I am.
But I think it is useful to take some labs and use as reference points--
TSH, T3, FT3 are fairly inexpensive and provide additional information
(though I do accept Peat's critique of relying too heavily upon them).

 

[thegiantess]

did you get reverse t3 tested? that's way more important than t4 and t3 values.

It seems to depend on who you ask on this forum specifically. I've heard told that total T3 is most important. I have a full panel. Is there an optimal reverse t3 that you know of according to Peat?

 

[thegiantess]

"The liver has to convert T4 to T3 for it to be effective. It needs glucose and selenium to make the conversion. Adequate protein, at least 80 grams per day, is necessary. Sea food, once a week will provide selenium, two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice would provide many of the other essential nutrients. Taking T4 at bedtime sometimes is helpful. Most people feel best on a ratio of T4:T3 of 4:1 or less. Checking the relaxation rate of the Achilles reflex is a quick way to check the effect of the thyroid on your nerves and muscles; the relaxation should be instantaneous, loose and floppy." - Ray Peat

I think this refers specially to the ratio for supplementing thyroid. I am looking for the ratio of blood test values.