Is This Quote From RP On Excess T3 Correct? Can T3 Turn Into RT3?

Discussion in 'Ray Peat Topics' started by yoshiesque, Oct 30, 2015.

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  1. yoshiesque

    yoshiesque Member

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    I know he apparently later clarified that Reverse T3 is from T4, but I am curious to know why he said the Liver is likely to convert much of the T3 as a defensive response? Is this true? An interesting mistake he made if its not true, thats for sure.
     
  2. answersfound

    answersfound Member

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    Please use the search function as this has been covered several times.

    He's saying that no more than about 5 mcg should be taken in one dose, because more than that would not be physiological. If too much thyroid is being taken or the body is not ready to raise metabolism, the liver will covert t4 into reverse t3 which blocks the t3 receptors from receiving t3.
     
  3. tara

    tara Member

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    I think if there is too much T3, then more of the T4 gets converted to rT3, so maybe he said that as a kind of (uncharacteristic) short hand?
     
  4. OP
    yoshiesque

    yoshiesque Member

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    What i really want to know, is what happens if there is too much T3? Is there some mechanism that takes place to stop the already present excess T3? It seems there isnt.
     
  5. docall18

    docall18 Member

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    As far as I have read only T4 can turn into RT3.
     
  6. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    He did mention if one takes large dose of T3 it increases a compound that continues to
    deactivate T3. In older post it was discussed how T4 and T3 are degraded.
    Here is a study showing same compound inactivating both T4 and T3, T4 turns to reverse T3 and
    T3 turns to T2. It is hard to find mistake in RP's writing, he is very diligent.

    Activation and inactivation of thyroid hormone by type I iodothyronine deiodinase.
    FEBS Lett. 1994 May 16;344(2-3):143-6.
    Activation and inactivation of thyroid hormone by type I iodothyronine deiodinase.
    Moreno M1, Berry MJ, Horst C, Thoma R, Goglia F, Harney JW, Larsen PR, Visser TJ.
    Author information
    Abstract
    The prohormone thyroxine (T4) is activated by outer ring deiodination (ORD) to 3,3',5-triiodothyronine (T3) and both hormones are degraded by inner ring deiodination (IRD) to 3,3',5'-triiodothyronine (rT3) and 3,3'-diiodothyronine, respectively. Indirect evidence suggests that the type I iodothyronine deiodinase (ID-I) in liver has both ORD and IRD activities, with preference for rT3 and sulfated iodothyronines as substrates. To establish this, we have compared the ORD of rT3 and IRD of T3 and T3 sulfate by homogenates of cells transfected with rat ID-I cDNA and by rat liver microsomes. In both preparations rT3 is the preferred substrate, while deiodination of T3 is markedly accelerated by its sulfation. Kinetic analysis provided similar Km and Vmax values in cell homogenates and liver microsomes. These data demonstrate unequivocally that ID-I is capable of both activating and inactivating thyroid hormone by ORD and IRD, respectively.
    Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8187873
     
  7. tara

    tara Member

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    Thanks Mittir. I agree he is diligent.
     
  8. michael94

    michael94 Member

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    I also remember some story of people taking thyroid and having this breakthrough after some months because their body wasn't producing much t4 anymore so rt3 couldnt be created due to the excess t3 they were surely taking.
     
  9. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    That's an interesting bio-hack but I'd keep some kind of thyroid blocker nearby at all times...
     
  10. jayegray

    jayegray Member

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    [ moderator edit: threads merged ]

    I am struggling to find a definitive answer on this.

    In Generative Energy, Ray says "when a large amount is taken at one time, the liver is likely to convert much of it to the inactive reverse-T3 form, in a normal defensive response."

    I can't find any other sources to confirm this. Does anyone have any information on this potential conversation?
     
  11. dookie

    dookie Member

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    Excess T3 can increase estrogen. So T3 can probably increase reverse T3 in a number of indirect ways.

    Don't know if it can directly "turn itself into reverse T3", maybe someone else can chime in on that
     
  12. jayegray

    jayegray Member

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    Has anyone directly asked Ray about this?

    I did not know t3 can increase estrogen. Do you know how this happens?
     
  13. dookie

    dookie Member

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    Just look at the studies linking hyperthyroidism to gyno and high estradiol. Several studies on PubMed, has also been posted about on the forum. It might be a defensive move by the body - to slow down the metabolism with estrogen, when there's too much T3. Not sure the exact mechanism. Maybe @haidut can chime in?
     
  14. Vida

    Vida Member

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    @dookie SPOT ON! That is my experience, that estrogen increases. But in my case, even very small amount added T3 and also T4 increases estrogen. In my case, I think its because of an underlying issue that yet is not sorted out, leaning towards too low cortisol circulating in the system.
     
  15. jayegray

    jayegray Member

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    So for someone who has problems with high estrogen then eating pro metabolic foods could also create a more estrogenic environment in the organism? It seems as though one should not try to increase the metabolic rate until the estrogen is taken care of.
     
  16. haidut

    haidut Member

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    Increased thyroid function causes increased cortisol and estrogen turnover. But it should not increase estrogenic tone, unless there is an issue with liver function so the estrogen does not get excreted properly.
    Effects Of Thyroid Hormone On Steroid Metabolism

    For comparison, alcoholics (who are typically slim) produce little estrogen but they retain most of it due to impaired liver function so they are in a state of estrogenic excess.
     
  17. johnwester130

    johnwester130 Member

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    The purpose of the treatment is not so much to give patients’ thyroid glands a rest (although that does happen), as it is to clear T4 and RT3 out of the tissues so that their thyroid hormone pathways can get cleared out and reset. This appears to be what enables the patients’ thyroid systems to function well on their own again. Wilson’s T3 therapy does not need to be taken for life, rather usually only a few weeks or months. Another common feature of T3 therapy involves cycling the patient on and off T3 therapy. There’s something about weaning a patient off T3 and starting it again that often helps them break through periods of stagnation in their treatment progress (possibly by reducing resistance to T3 therapy).

    Wilson’s T3 protocol is aimed at depleting T4 and RT3 levels in the tissues of the body, for a time, hopefully allowing the converting enzyme to come back up to normal. This is accomplished by reducing TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone). TSH is reduced by giving patients straight T3 directly
     
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