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Is This K2 Dosage Enough?

Discussion in 'Vitamins' started by demen, Feb 3, 2019.

  1. demen

    demen Member

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    Quick question people,

    I am aiming for getting a wider face/cheekbones to get rid of my sort of narrow face. Is supplementing myself 90 mcg of k2 daily enough to make things happen? This is also the maximum recommended ammount written for the supplements I have so idk. Thanks for responding! almost turning 20 btw
     
  2. MrBenjamin

    MrBenjamin Member

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    What form is it? Vitamin k2 mk-4 or vitamin k2 mk-7?
     
  3. OP
    demen

    demen Member

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    it is mk-4
     
  4. baccheion

    baccheion Member

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    1 mg/kg vitamin K2 MK-4 split across 3 servings (eg, 24 mg 3x/day at 72 kg), though some report the effect with 15 or even 5 mg 3x/day. Also, apply some (10 mg?) onto the scrotum to increase androgencity:estrogencity. And add a multivitamin, vitamin D, and (chelated/TRAACS) magnesium supplement.
     
  5. MrBenjamin

    MrBenjamin Member

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    The studies I've seen on bone growth and on testosterone production use mk-4.
    Mk-4 has very low oral bioavailability. If I recall correctly, one study showed almost no absorption.
    I'd be willing to guess that taken through the skin it would give a much better bioavailability, and increase bone growth even more. Fat soluble vitamins have been noted as passing into circulation transdermally. That being said, I think that if mk-4 rises, it would be good to supplement with calcium, as mk-4 can interfere with calcium levels, and low calcium can be dangerous.

    I'm rather frustrated that most studies are done on oral mk-4, and none on transdermal. If we know that it isn't digested well, it seems silly that experiments would be done with extremely high doses of oral supplementing of vitamin k2 mk-4. Most of it is probably going to waste. Since the studies with oral supplementation have shown difference in bones, I'd expect that taken dissolved in oil and applied to skin would have even more beneficial effects. Of course, calcium supplementation would probably be even more important if it raised vitamin k2 mk-4 even more than oral supplements.

    There aren't very many studies on k2 and bone growth,
    and those that exist use doses around 45 mg taken orally. Why they don't study more reasonable doses applied to the skin is beyond me, so I don't think we know what that would do. This isn't a terribly well studied area. Most studies concern people with serious bone issues. If you message me I can tell you some more about what I do for myself, but I'm just experimenting with myself.
     
  6. OP
    demen

    demen Member

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    so 90 mcg is way too low?
     
  7. AnonE

    AnonE Member

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    @MrBenjamin could you expand on this statement:

    "That being said, I think that if mk-4 rises, it would be good to supplement with calcium, as mk-4 can interfere with calcium levels, and low calcium can be dangerous."

    I stopped taking high dose (~15mg) K2 MK-4 after about a year because something was just feeling off and I couldn't place my finger on it. I thought maybe it stopped other fat solubles from being absorbed. I did a lot of experimenting and found that (of all my supps) it was the K2 most likely giving me a bad reaction - skin quality got weird/not good, some bloating all around, sleep quality wasn't great, felt like I had some insulin resistance (just couldn't lose weight no matter how hard I was dieting and working out, things that have always worked for me before) and a few other minor things that have mostly resolved.

    But then during this time of tapering down/removing K2, I noticed that calcium (!) supplements made me feel reasonably good: more energetic, tighter skin, more energy in the gym, etc.

    Nobody ever mentioned anything about problems with overuse of K2 Mk-4, because I reckon aside from some Japanese older women or weird dudes on the internet (like me), they've never done it before lol. So any additional insights into this from anyone would be much appreciated.
     
  8. OP
    demen

    demen Member

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    Thank you for your great response and help. So I am taking way too low with 90 mcg a day to see some changes I am hitting for?
     
  9. baccheion

    baccheion Member

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    Did you take MK-4 with vitamin D and magnesium? Better yet, what other supplements were you taking?
     
  10. MrBenjamin

    MrBenjamin Member

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    Vitamin k2 mk-4 is supposed to inhibit bone resorption, which is part of how our body regulates our calcium levels. My guess is that at high doses, it could lower calcium levels significantly. Calcium is important, and the body tries to keep it at specific levels, not too high, not too low. If it gets too low it is quite dangerous.

    Hypocalcemia: Definition and Patient Education

    I don't recall any specific studies on vitamin k2 supplementing and low calcium levels, but as you said, most people aren't taking high doses of vitamin k2.
     
  11. MrBenjamin

    MrBenjamin Member

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    I'm just guessing , I'm no expert. I just don't recall any studies on k2 and bone structure showing significant difference at that dosage.
    There are studies on things like osteoblast formation and bone volume, but they are more along the lines of 45 mg taken orally.
    I could tell you about what I'm taking and if I see any success over the next few months. Just message me.
    But my guess would be 90mcg would do almost nothing for bones.
     
  12. AnonE

    AnonE Member

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    @baccheion "Did you take MK-4 with vitamin D and magnesium? Better yet, what other supplements were you taking?"

    I was low magnesium for sure, barely took any and wasn't eating much veges (plus hard workouts). Probably why OJ always felt so great. I was taking Vit D though (avg. 5K, which I maintain to this day). Other supps: B vits, zinc, some amino acids.

    Now I take magnesium bisglycinate and magnesium l-threonate.

    Something else that's helped over last few months: reducing hard workouts. I feel like it's just draining the body of too many minerals or whatever, as well as increasing cortisol to the point where it's not even worth some small extra T boost because the T:C ratio gets ****88.
     
  13. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Effect of food composition on vitamin K absorption in human volunteers

    upload_2019-2-3_20-38-48.png
    All were providing 1 mg of vitamin K. 25 g of butter with spinachs and 5 g with mk-4.
    Active substance: phytomenadione (synthetic vitamin K1)
    Excipients (Ampoules): glycocholic acid, sodium hydroxide, lecithin, hydrochloric acid, water for injection (it was ingested)

    They was using phylloquinone as reference (100%), but..

    "As was reported earlier, the efficiency of intestinal absorption of phylloquinone from Konakion [purified supplement*] is about 80% (Shearer er al. 1974). Based on this figure it may be estimated from our data that less than 10% of phylloquinone present in green vegetables is absorbed in the digestive tract."

    "The uptake of fat-solubilized menaquinone-4 was more than two-fold higher than that of phylloquinone from spinach + butter, which was about one third that of detergent-solubilized phylloquinone."​

    According to them oral adsorptions are:
    - 80% phylloquinone
    - 25% menaquinone-4 (four)
    - 10% cooked spinach with butter

    @haidut
     
  14. MrBenjamin

    MrBenjamin Member

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    Interesting. I thought I read a study indicating very low mk-4 bioavailability taken orally. But it was only one study. Maybe I was wrong.

    EDIT: The study I viewed probably didn't give the supplement with fat. That would probably make the difference if it is fat soluble.
     
  15. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Since it was based on the bloody, it can be that mk-4 is taken up by tissues faster and it appears to them as if it wasn't being adsorbed for only having a fraction being detected. Therefore it's possible that much more than that is adsorbed and used. This can also explain the usual claim that the menaquinones with longer chainz have superior bioavialbslaibty: if I'm not wrong, most experiments judge this by concentrations in the sera and curves under the areas.
     
  16. haidut

    haidut Member

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    There is a human study with MK-4 and varying amounts of fat showing that when 35g of fat is consumed absorption is high probably exceeds 80%.
    Effect of dietary fat content on oral bioavailability of menatetrenone in humans. - PubMed - NCBI
     
  17. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    What was puzzling is that the amounts were the same (1 mg) but there was a marked difference between forms. With greenos it's because of being difficult to extract its vitamin K, but both k1 and mk-4 were purified. However! Apparently La Roche was the main supplier of phylloquinone, and their product (Konakion) is sometimes referred to as 'detergent-solubilized' because it already contains glycocholic acid, so it should not be as dependent as the others on fat intake to release bile.[Validation needed]

     
  18. BONE

    BONE Member

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    Has anyone actually proven it can grow wider face and stuff?

    Seems like a pipe dream and broscience, but hey, I'm open to all ideas. Just would like to see someone with actual measurable difference. Any such evidence?

    Who wouldn't want thicker cheekbones?
     
  19. Frankdee20

    Frankdee20 Member

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    Yes, I think this is akin to saying Asian women have sideways vagina's.
     
  20. MrBenjamin

    MrBenjamin Member

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    Well there is certainly no solid scientific evidence. I don't suspect their would be many people willing to fund studies on the matter.
    We can be pretty sure that low dose vitamin k2 does not have an impact on the face, because more people would have probably noticed it by now.
    I'm skeptical about oral doses around 45mg having a notable effect, because it seems likely the studies done with those doses would have noted it.
    I still wonder about topical doses taken over the specific area in large amounts to induce growth.

    Anyhow, some people online claim to have had notable effects on the face from vitamin k2. It isn't clear if this is true, but if it were true I don't suspect everyone would want to share their pictures documenting changes with a bunch of strangers online. I am looking at my own experimentation. I will let you know if I notice any small changes in the coming months. All of this probably depends on age, dose, and method of administration. But I will try to let you know about my own experimentation.
     
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