Is The Supplement Intervention Route Kind Of Like An Inner Authoritarian?

Peatogenic

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This forum is littered with stories of people correcting many problems with supplements (and diet). Assuming the state of the body is always changing, it appears there are some issues people face that are persistent, too.

Four years ago I vowed to not do any supplementation....not just because it's more "natural"....but because I resolved that I can't micromanage my body. That deficiencies or dysregulation were the wisdom of the body, and that if you just press through regulating blood sugar, supplying nutrients, etc that the body heals itself through its own intelligence that I can't perceive. Because once I started to manipulate, then this causes new imbalances. But maybe I was partially wrong. Maybe my view of the body could use some new assumptions.

I actually did heal a lot over four years without the use of supplements or even strict food protocols, even if there was a kind of method to what I did. I found my way out of fatigue and poor glycogen storage just through time and collaborative (somewhat submissive) interaction with my body. The divide between myself and my body disappeared.

So, this may sound weird, I feel kind of guilty or that I'm doing something wrong now that I'm back to treating my body, that divide is back...the "I know better, and I don't have the patience". I started taking A and D and an AI, and my CPTSD, which many experience as a process that takes years to heal, seemed to practically disappear overnight. This also opened up new perceptions about reality, and I realized that a lot of our reality is based on our hormone states....that who we think we are is not fixed.

At first, it felt valid to keep up with this supplementation because of all the studies showing PTSD to be a pretty severe mechanical issue. The thinking was, "maybe this isn't something you slowly get out of...maybe it's something that requires a very specific intervention.". I heard Ray tell a story about a woman that had been pale faced her entire life, and after one dose of progesterone, her face changed color and lips went from purple to red. He said that it was able to "break the stress cycle".

Nevertheless, now I'm kind of back to that state of being at the drawing board, having to perceive and adjust and be mindful of new imbalances that could arise....because I'm carrying out this supplement approach again. Honestly, I'm not a fan of it.

Have others here felt a similar guilt in the "intervention" route? How did you process it? And, I guess most importantly, what was your method for reevaluation? It seems you have to rule out all other variables....you can't be making decisions to tweak if you are experiencing more environmental stress or have been eating differently or...even if the weather has changed. It seems you have to get to some consistency of variables for tweaking.

Lastly, how do you believe your intervention/supplementation healed you? Like, specifically. Is it because you're still on the supplement and have to be? Anyone quit or taper off and was essentially cured? (like Ray's progesterone lady).
 

Arnold Grape

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Im with you: after you have screwed with enough supplements it’s kind of amazing what the body will just do on its own. While taking Dhea/ progesterone might ramp up all of the markers talked about in relation to great health here, it reduced my strength; lowered t; caused dermatitis on my face. Things like that. What’s interesting is to observe the effects of good diet, let your stomach tell you want you need to eat and try to gravitate toward wellbeing instead of forcing it with sups. That said I’m still at 3 grams of vitamin c; b-1 regularly; adek once a week. Strong coffee and Gelatin.
 
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Peatogenic

Peatogenic

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Im with you: after you have screwed with enough supplements it’s kind of amazing what the body will just do on its own. While taking Dhea/ progesterone might ramp up all of the markers talked about in relation to great health here, it reduced my strength; lowered t; caused dermatitis on my face. Things like that. What’s interesting is to observe the effects of good diet, let your stomach tell you want you need to eat and try to gravitate toward wellbeing instead of forcing it with sups. That said I’m still at 3 grams of vitamin c; b-1 regularly; adek once a week. Strong coffee and Gelatin.

The only negatives I've found from my new hormone introduction is that after a month I've noticed emotionlessness and I think these two patches of hairloss on my wrist...not severe emotionless, and possibly from all the stress I've been under. Some might say that I just need to taper down. Part of me fears the years I could have "wasted", assuming this all goes well. Four years is a long time to resolve my fatigue and hypoglycemia "naturally", and there were a few other issues that never healed really.

For sure, the body can heal itself and learn to regulate/adapt, but is this the ideal way? Especially when it comes to more severe issues, not just general metabolic decline.
 
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tankasnowgod

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There are some supplements I plan on staying on for like (specifically, D, K2, and Magnesium). There are others I take regularly, and others I shuffle in and out of rotation, constantly experimenting. Personally, I like experimenting, and when it comes to the three I mentioned above, I think they are a normalizing fix for modern lifestyle. For example, D is a fix for spending more time indoors and wearing clothes. I've been using gram sized doses of vitamin C the past month, and have seen lots of benefits. I see no reason to try and strive for being "natural" when we live in such an unnatural world at the moment, and "unnatural" supplements can help me out.

Four years ago I vowed to not do any supplementation....not just because it's more "natural"....but because I resolved that I can't micromanage my body. That deficiencies or dysregulation were the wisdom of the body, and that if you just press through regulating blood sugar, supplying nutrients, etc that the body heals itself through its own intelligence that I can't perceive. Because once I started to manipulate, then this causes new imbalances. But maybe I was partially wrong. Maybe my view of the body could use some new assumptions.

One thing to consider with this..... were you eating bread, wheat products, rice, or dairy during this four year period? If so, you were indeed "supplementing." You were just doing it haphazzardly, with no plan, and not managing your body yourself, but outsourcing the management of it to food manufacturers.
 
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Peatogenic

Peatogenic

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There are some supplements I plan on staying on for like (specifically, D, K2, and Magnesium). There are others I take regularly, and others I shuffle in and out of rotation, constantly experimenting. Personally, I like experimenting, and when it comes to the three I mentioned above, I think they are a normalizing fix for modern lifestyle. For example, D is a fix for spending more time indoors and wearing clothes. I've been using gram sized doses of vitamin C the past month, and have seen lots of benefits. I see no reason to try and strive for being "natural" when we live in such an unnatural world at the moment, and "unnatural" supplements can help me out.



One thing to consider with this..... were you eating bread, wheat products, rice, or dairy during this four year period? If so, you were indeed "supplementing." You were just doing it haphazzardly, with no plan, and not managing your body yourself, but outsourcing the management of it to food manufacturers.

Right, food is a supplement and a manipulation....not always as potent. I mentioned that I didn't ditch supplements as an attempt to be "natural", as if supplements are unnatural...it was more about a philosophy of the body...that I can't micromanage it or force it into regulating a certain way. Not knowing if this philosophy/assumption is valid is the crux of my post.
 

tankasnowgod

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I would also say the term "Inner Authoritarian" is an oxymoron. The definition is "favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom."
 

tankasnowgod

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Right, food is a supplement and a manipulation....not always as potent. I mentioned that I didn't ditch supplements as an attempt to be "natural", as if supplements are unnatural...it was more about a philosophy of the body...that I can't micromanage it or force it into regulating a certain way. Not knowing if this philosophy/assumption is valid is the crux of my post.

I don't know why you keep using the term "micromanage." Are you supplementing every 15 minutes? Getting up 5 times a night to use supplements? That's trying to micromanage the body. And truthfully, there may be times when approaches like this are needed. Thing about someone in an emergency room setting.

Also, I wasn't saying that ALL food is a supplement. Not at all. But many manufactured foods contain supplements. Look at the ingredients list breakfast cereal. In addition to things like wheat and oats, you will see things like thiamine and ferrous sulfate. That's a supplement. Eating a potato? That's just eating food.

I also don't know why you would consider all deficiencies "the wisdom of the body." It could just as likely be that it's due to a certain vitamin or nutrient being missing from the diet.

As for whether your philosophy or assumption is valid, that's something you have to decide. Otherwise, you are just outsourcing that decision to external authorities.
 

milk_lover

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There are some supplements I plan on staying on for like (specifically, D, K2, and Magnesium). There are others I take regularly, and others I shuffle in and out of rotation, constantly experimenting. Personally, I like experimenting, and when it comes to the three I mentioned above, I think they are a normalizing fix for modern lifestyle. For example, D is a fix for spending more time indoors and wearing clothes. I've been using gram sized doses of vitamin C the past month, and have seen lots of benefits. I see no reason to try and strive for being "natural" when we live in such an unnatural world at the moment, and "unnatural" supplements can help me out.



One thing to consider with this..... were you eating bread, wheat products, rice, or dairy during this four year period? If so, you were indeed "supplementing." You were just doing it haphazzardly, with no plan, and not managing your body yourself, but outsourcing the management of it to food manufacturers.
Do they add stuff to white rice too?
 

tankasnowgod

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Do they add stuff to white rice too?

Depends on the brand, but yes, a lot of rice is fortified. For rice, however, it's pretty easy to remove the fortified vitamins, simply rinse it long enough before cooking. I'm in the US, and most rice is fortified, however, I can easily find rice that isn't at both Trader Joe's and Costco. It's usually imported or organic.
 

milk_lover

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Depends on the brand, but yes, a lot of rice is fortified. For rice, however, it's pretty easy to remove the fortified vitamins, simply rinse it long enough before cooking. I'm in the US, and most rice is fortified, however, I can easily find rice that isn't at both Trader Joe's and Costco. It's usually imported or organic.
Oh I didn't know that. I need to check the rice we use at home.
 
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Peatogenic

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I would also say the term "Inner Authoritarian" is an oxymoron. The definition is "favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom."
I don't know why you keep using the term "micromanage." Are you supplementing every 15 minutes? Getting up 5 times a night to use supplements? That's trying to micromanage the body. And truthfully, there may be times when approaches like this are needed. Thing about someone in an emergency room setting.

Also, I wasn't saying that ALL food is a supplement. Not at all. But many manufactured foods contain supplements. Look at the ingredients list breakfast cereal. In addition to things like wheat and oats, you will see things like thiamine and ferrous sulfate. That's a supplement. Eating a potato? That's just eating food.

I also don't know why you would consider all deficiencies "the wisdom of the body." It could just as likely be that it's due to a certain vitamin or nutrient being missing from the diet.

As for whether your philosophy or assumption is valid, that's something you have to decide. Otherwise, you are just outsourcing that decision to external authorities.

Ok, I'm interested in other perspectives, such as yours. Was just clarifying to you that I don't believe supplements are unnatural. You could eat aasmall portion of the thyroid gland of an animal, too, in capsule form.
 

Whichway?

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It’s a really interesting question you ask. I’ve often wondered the same thing, as I have been a supplementer since my late teens after reading Lady Cilento’s “You don’t have to live with vitamin and mineral deficiencies”. I think it is really hard to know the answer too. There is definitely knowledge from the plant world, and from animals that suggest that “optimum” nutrition involving larger than normal doses of nutrients improves many different markers of health. However none of the large supplement trials in humans seem to have had the same results, though you could argue about doses, nutrient forms being wrong, etc.

There is no doubt that if you have a deficiency of any nutrient, bringing it back up into normal range will help your physical and mental health, and in your case with your CPTSD may have helped in the resolution of that issue. Beyond deficiencies though, the results of larger than normal doses in the long term is unknown.

I’ve also wondered sometimes whether taking pills, which bypasses the tongue and taste mechanisms may somehow be wrong, as perhaps we get more information from food in our taste about what nutrients are in the food and what we need and what we don’t than is currently known.
 
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Peatogenic

Peatogenic

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It’s a really interesting question you ask. I’ve often wondered the same thing, as I have been a supplementer since my late teens after reading Lady Cilento’s “You don’t have to live with vitamin and mineral deficiencies”. I think it is really hard to know the answer too. There is definitely knowledge from the plant world, and from animals that suggest that “optimum” nutrition involving larger than normal doses of nutrients improves many different markers of health. However none of the large supplement trials in humans seem to have had the same results, though you could argue about doses, nutrient forms being wrong, etc.

There is no doubt that if you have a deficiency of any nutrient, bringing it back up into normal range will help your physical and mental health, and in your case with your CPTSD may have helped in the resolution of that issue. Beyond deficiencies though, the results of larger than normal doses in the long term is unknown.

I’ve also wondered sometimes whether taking pills, which bypasses the tongue and taste mechanisms may somehow be wrong, as perhaps we get more information from food in our taste about what nutrients are in the food and what we need and what we don’t than is currently known.

Ray Peat seems to believe in a "stress cycle" that can be broken, but I'm not a biochemist so I don't know exactly what that is. With PTSD, there's "Limbic looping" ....so when he said a hormone was useful in breaking a stress cycle, it seemed very relevant to me...and I discovered this after I started supplementing...I initially started them for dental issues, kind of an impulsive supplement buy driven by fear of a cavity. Wasn't expecting the mental/identity changes. Vitamin A and D operate more as hormones than vitamins, but not sure I'm wording it the right way. Nevertheless, I am not interested in lifetime supping, and not sure if it would be necessary if a "stress cycle" can be broken.
 

Makrosky

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A few things :

- People talk about "curing", "solving issues", etc... but it is a big lie. To me, "cured" means going back to the previous state where you could do anything or eat anything and the body will be ok. Now, if you have to become a frutarian, an all meat eater, or take many supplements, or get 2hrs sun a day or you feel bad, get 4000calories, avoid gluten, etc etc and if you don't do that your symptoms return, the you are NOT CURED. You are just managing your symptoms. I don't have anything against it but it is not honest to delude oneself and call it "cured".

For instance the only chronic thing in my life I think I have permanently cured was an allergy to cats. I could manage it with 3gr vitamin c or OTC antihistamines but that is not a cure. One day after 2-3 andreas moritz style liver flushes I stopped being allergic to them. The allergy has never returned. That I consider a true cure.

To me a true cure is like when you have an infection, you take an antibiotic, it goes away, and you keep with your life as before.

- I think supplementation is needed in modern world. We are bombarded with so many visible and invisible toxics. I know a lot of people who don't want to take supplements and they have miserable energy or stress levels. Granted they don't suffer that much because they have a positive outlook on life and goals, etc... but it is still miserable to live like that. Always tired, always cold, always stressed, others are becoming low-energy type cinicals... others have big constipation problems. At the sole mention of testing for t3 or using T3 (some of them are clinically diagnosed with hypothyroidism and on T4 only therapy) they shutdown. They don't want to go down that rabbit hole and discuss with their GP's.

In a way I can understand them. If you go that route, it means that for the rest of your life you will have to dedicate a big ammount of time, money and energy into taking care of yourself instead of relying into the social security doctors. They prefer to redirect that energy to more meaningful (for them) things and pay the toll of being exhausted, they learn to live with that.

- I think adaptogenic herbs and substances used as supplements are not going to create imbalances, unlike synthetic minerals, vitamins and hormones. Same for therapies that use herbs like Traditional Chinese Medicine. However I think most of the times are not powerful enough.

My 2cents.
 
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Peatogenic

Peatogenic

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A few things :

- People talk about "curing", "solving issues", etc... but it is a big lie. To me, "cured" means going back to the previous state where you could do anything or eat anything and the body will be ok. Now, if you have to become a frutarian, an all meat eater, or take many supplements, or get 2hrs sun a day or you feel bad, get 4000calories, avoid gluten, etc etc and if you don't do that your symptoms return, the you are NOT CURED. You are just managing your symptoms. I don't have anything against it but it is not honest to delude oneself and call it "cured".

For instance the only thing in my life I think I have permanently cured was an allergy to cats. I could manage it with 3gr vitamin c or OTC antihistamines but that is not a cure. One day after 2-3 andreas moritz style liver flushes I stopped being allergic to them. The allergy has never returned. That I consider a true cure.

To me a true cure is like when you have an infection, you take an antibiotic, it goes away, and you keep with your life as before.

- I think supplementation is needed in modern world. We are bombarded with so many visible and invisible toxics. I know a lot of people who don't want to take supplements and they have miserable energy or stress levels. Granted they don't suffer that much because they have a positive outlook on life and goals, etc... but it is still miserable to live like that. Always tired, always cold, always stressed, others are becoming low-energy type cinicals... others have big constipation problems. At the sole mention of testing for t3 or using T3 (some of them are clinically diagnosed with hypothyroidism and on T4 only therapy) they shutdown. They don't want to go down that rabbit hole and discuss with their GP's.

In a way I can understand them. If you go that route, it means that for the rest of your life you will have to dedicate a big ammount of time, money and energy into taking care of yourself instead of relying into the social security doctors. They prefer to redirect that energy to more meaningful (for them) things.

My 2cents.

Interesting, I would imagine there's a lot of people here who have been able to return to "eating anything" and not suffering....I'm not sure that's the goal, though?

Yeah, I think I agree that it's probably a better burden to be aware or perceiving, thinking, acting in regards to health. That's really sad if most people are miserable...if they are, they seem to hide it very well.
 

tankasnowgod

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There is definitely knowledge from the plant world, and from animals that suggest that “optimum” nutrition involving larger than normal doses of nutrients improves many different markers of health. However none of the large supplement trials in humans seem to have had the same results, though you could argue about doses, nutrient forms being wrong, etc.

What supplement trials are you referring to? This forum is absolutely full of studies showing benefits in humans of both drugs and supplements.
 

Makrosky

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Interesting, I would imagine there's a lot of people here who have been able to return to "eating anything" and not suffering....I'm not sure that's the goal, though?

Yeah, I think I agree that it's probably a better burden to be aware or perceiving, thinking, acting in regards to health. That's really sad if most people are miserable...if they are, they seem to hide it very well.

The goal is to be free. Avoiding pufa or gluten for the rest of your life is slavery. You have to find a way to be healthy in a balanced way. Do you know what I mean? What kind of freedom is that that if you don't eat 4000cals, take sups, avoid pufa, gluten, sleep with the bed inclined, take mushrooms twice a week, not having a wifi router closer than 200m, avoid fluorescent ligjts, don't do cardio sports, etc... you feel sick? You get more and more closed in your own shell. But don't get me wrong, I also do these kind of things and I feel better doing them. It is just that I miss the times when I didn't have to do any of these things to feel healthy. Is there a therapy to go back to that state? I wonder. I feel like I am a slave of my own rules.
 
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LUH 3417

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This forum is littered with stories of people correcting many problems with supplements (and diet). Assuming the state of the body is always changing, it appears there are some issues people face that are persistent, too.

Four years ago I vowed to not do any supplementation....not just because it's more "natural"....but because I resolved that I can't micromanage my body. That deficiencies or dysregulation were the wisdom of the body, and that if you just press through regulating blood sugar, supplying nutrients, etc that the body heals itself through its own intelligence that I can't perceive. Because once I started to manipulate, then this causes new imbalances. But maybe I was partially wrong. Maybe my view of the body could use some new assumptions.

I actually did heal a lot over four years without the use of supplements or even strict food protocols, even if there was a kind of method to what I did. I found my way out of fatigue and poor glycogen storage just through time and collaborative (somewhat submissive) interaction with my body. The divide between myself and my body disappeared.

So, this may sound weird, I feel kind of guilty or that I'm doing something wrong now that I'm back to treating my body, that divide is back...the "I know better, and I don't have the patience". I started taking A and D and an AI, and my CPTSD, which many experience as a process that takes years to heal, seemed to practically disappear overnight. This also opened up new perceptions about reality, and I realized that a lot of our reality is based on our hormone states....that who we think we are is not fixed.

At first, it felt valid to keep up with this supplementation because of all the studies showing PTSD to be a pretty severe mechanical issue. The thinking was, "maybe this isn't something you slowly get out of...maybe it's something that requires a very specific intervention.". I heard Ray tell a story about a woman that had been pale faced her entire life, and after one dose of progesterone, her face changed color and lips went from purple to red. He said that it was able to "break the stress cycle".

Nevertheless, now I'm kind of back to that state of being at the drawing board, having to perceive and adjust and be mindful of new imbalances that could arise....because I'm carrying out this supplement approach again. Honestly, I'm not a fan of it.

Have others here felt a similar guilt in the "intervention" route? How did you process it? And, I guess most importantly, what was your method for reevaluation? It seems you have to rule out all other variables....you can't be making decisions to tweak if you are experiencing more environmental stress or have been eating differently or...even if the weather has changed. It seems you have to get to some consistency of variables for tweaking.

Lastly, how do you believe your intervention/supplementation healed you? Like, specifically. Is it because you're still on the supplement and have to be? Anyone quit or taper off and was essentially cured? (like Ray's progesterone lady).
I can relate completely. I have had bouts of eating lots of starch and getting acupressure and having 3
The goal is to be free. Avoiding pufa or gluten for the rest of your life is slavery. You have to find a way to be healthy in a balanced way. Do you know what I mean? What kind of freedom is that that if you don't eat 4000cals, take sups, avoid pufa, gluten, sleep with the bed inclined, take mushrooms twice a week, not having a wifi router closer than 200m, avoid fluorescent ligjts, etc... you feel sick? You get more and more closed in your own shell. But don't get me wrong, I also do these kind of things and I feel better doing them. It is just that I miss the times when I didn't have to do any of these things to feel healthy. And I feel like I am a slave of my own rules.
i am with you on a lot of what you are writing. TCM seems to be the only practice that has helped me experience cures.
 

LUH 3417

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Thanks. Makes me feel I'm not crazy.
I am starting to feel like the mind body connection is really paramount. It’s almost as if my ability to digest any food is related to my ability to “stomach” reality, even if the foods are “suboptimal”. I used to be allergic to cats too (my eyes would swell shut and I’d be nearly asthmatic) and now I live with a cat.
 

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