Is Supplementing Vit E Actually Bad For You?

[Braveheart]

@bzmazu takes Carlson Gamma E-Gems -- 465 mg - 120 Softgels

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 Softgel
Servings per Container: 120

Amount Per Serving % Daily Value

Vitamin E (as d-alpha tocopherol) 150 IU 500%

Gamma Tocopherol 465 mg

Delta & Beta Tocopherols 201 mg

once a week....estroban or low tocovite other 5 days...one day nothing

 

[Travis]

Just a reminder: In my view: While always good to have the ideal membrane lipids, γ-tocopherol appears only unique in it's ability to neutralize the ˙NO and ˙NO₂ free radicals which cause damage by abstracting bis-allyl protons from other membrane lipids, creating lipid radicals and thereby initiating your classic lipid peroxidation chain reaction. But nitric oxide radicals can also be limited in other ways, such as by stopping their formation entirely. Although the enzyme which makes it—nitric
oxide synthase—is completely normal when found in the blood vessel endothelium (eNOS), its close cousin can be induced by cytokines: inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS). This is done with the intent of destroying invading microbes by a stream of free radicals, yet the body cannot discriminate between an immunogenic peptide coming from invaders and those coming from certain foods. For this reason, highly-immunogenic proteins such as wheat can also induce nitric oxide synthase lest precautions are made to circumvent this (i.e. sourdough fermentation). I am still under the impression that all negative effects seen from 'vitamin E' supplemen-
tation were from taking α-tocopherol exclusively for an extended period of time, thereby slowly depleting γ-tocopherol to the point of ˙NO vulnerability.

 

[Travis]

Vitamin E sold in most pills is most certainly effective, but if it's synthetic it likely has only ¹⁄₈ the activity declared on the label, and here's why:

'All of the tocopherol isoforms found in nature are the RRR-forms since all three chiral carbons on the side chain attached to the chroman head group have the R-configuration rather then the S-configuration. Synthetic vitamin E (typically found in dietary supplements) almost always refers to all-rac-α-tocopherol which is a racemic mixture containing eight stereoisomers, one eighth of which is the biologically active RRR-isoform. The isoform found in highest concentration in the serum is the RRR-α-tocopherol.' ―Campbell​

Plant enzymes are stereochemical and hence give sterochemical products, whereas synthetic procedures often rely on random molecular diffusion: this lacks stereo-
specificity. And since separating stereoisomers is quite difficult on account of them being identical in mass, charge, and solubility, there are not normally resolved before reaching the final product. For this reason, I'd think a 'vitamin E' brand being derived from a natural source would be superior despite the chance of residual linoleic acid.

Campbell, S. "Comparative effects of RRR-alpha-and RRR-gamma-tocopherol on proliferation and apoptosis in human colon cancer cell lines." BMC cancer (2006)

 

[Braveheart]

Vitamin E sold in most pills is most certainly effective, but if it's synthetic it likely has only ¹⁄₈ the activity declared on the label, and here's why:

'All of the tocopherol isoforms found in nature are the RRR-forms since all three chiral carbons on the side chain attached to the chroman head group have the R-configuration rather then the S-configuration. Synthetic vitamin E (typically found in dietary supplements) almost always refers to all-rac-α-tocopherol which is a racemic mixture containing eight stereoisomers, one eighth of which is the biologically active RRR-isoform. The isoform found in highest concentration in the serum is the RRR-α-tocopherol.' ―Campbell​

Plant enzymes are stereochemical and hence give sterochemical products, whereas synthetic procedures often rely on random molecular diffusion: this lacks stereo-
specificity. And since separating stereoisomers is quite difficult on account of them being identical in mass, charge, and solubility, there are not normally resolved before reaching the final product. For this reason, I'd think a 'vitamin E' brand being derived from a natural source would be superior despite the chance of residual linoleic acid.

Campbell, S. "Comparative effects of RRR-alpha-and RRR-gamma-tocopherol on proliferation and apoptosis in human colon cancer cell lines." BMC cancer (2006)

Travis, I do not have your depth of knowledge nor understanding...simply, how would these recent posts relate to my E regimen? I have long wondered if I was doing the right thing ,at my age, regards my E intake.

 

[fradon]

Vitamin E supplementation has not been shown to have significant benefit for people who are healthy, and appears to be harmful.[27][28] It does not improve blood sugar control in an unselected group of people with diabetes mellitus[29] or decrease the risk of stroke.[30] Daily supplementation of vitamin E does not decrease the risk of prostate cancer, and may increase it. -Wikipedia

Sources[edit]
mg/(100 g)
[note 1] Some foods with vitamin E content[3][1][48]
low high
150 Wheat germ oil
95 Almond oil
44 Canola/rapeseed oil
41 Sunflower oil
34 Safflower oil
26 Almonds
19 Wheat germ
15 Hazelnuts
14 Olive oil
8.33 Peanut
1.5 3.4 High-value green, leafy vegetables: spinach, turnip, beet greens, collard greens, and dandelion greens[note 2]
2.32 Butter
2 Avocados
1.8 Cocoa butter
1.4 Sesame oil
1.1 1.5 Asparagus[note 3]
1.5 Kiwifruit (green)
0.90 Cashew nuts
0.78 1.5 Broccoli[note 4]
0.8 1 Pumpkin[note 5]
0.26 0.94 Sweet potato[note 6]
0.9 Mangoes
0.7 Walnuts
0.54 0.56 Tomatoes[note 7]
0.13 0.22 Low-value green, leafy vegetables: lettuce[note 8]

As you can see most are PUFA's

Look at wheat germ oil:
Component g/100g
Linoleic acid (omega-6) 55
Palmitic acid 16
Oleic acid 14
Linolenic acid (omega-3) 7

Very high in Linoleic Acid! As we know from @Travis and Ray, Linoleic acid leads a pathway to proliferation!
I will stay away from Vitamin E and just consume coconut oil which has NO Linoleic or Linolenic acid.

Per Ray- Coconut oil is unusually rich in short and medium chain fatty acids. Shorter chain length allows fatty acids to be metabolized without the use of the carnitine transport system. Mildronate, which I discussed in an article on adaptogens, protects cells against stress partly by opposing the action of carnitine, and comparative studies showed that added carnitine had the opposite effect, promoting the oxidation of unsaturated fats during stress, and increasing oxidative damage to cells. I suspect that a degree of saturation of the oxidative apparatus by short-chain fatty acids has a similar effect--that is, that these very soluble and mobile short-chain saturated fats have priority for oxidation, because they don't require carnitine transport into the mitochondrion, and that this will tend to inhibit oxidation of the unstable, peroxidizable unsaturated fatty acids.

Fatty acid content of coconut oil
Type of fatty acid pct
Caprylic saturated C8

7%
Decanoic saturated C10

8%
Lauric saturated C12

48%
Myristic saturated C14

16%
Palmitic saturated C16

9.5%
Oleic monounsaturated C18:1

6.5%
Other

5%

Per Ray-It is well established that dietary coconut oil reduces our need for vitamin E

what i remember about vitamin E is that it protects lipids from oxidizing. Vitamin E is reactivated by vitamin C. There are vairous forms of vitamin E the most popular is the alpha tocopheryl but another one that has shown to have high anti disease properties is gamma tocopheryl which is found in pecans. vitamin e can also increase Testosterone.

the problem with a lot of vitamin e supplements is they come from processed POLYUNSATURATED OILS. like soybeann oil. its best to get it from natural non oxidized foods.

 

[Travis]

Travis, I do not have your depth of knowledge nor understanding...simply, how would these recent posts relate to my E regimen? I have long wondered if I was doing the right thing ,at my age, regards my E intake.

I view the situation as 'vitamin A' has always been good, but can actually become pathological in the specific case of a person taking enough α-tocopherol to deplete the protective γ-tocopherol found on the cell membrane; which I'd think would also require a somewhat low γ-tocopherol intake from food. In print, the difference is just one lowercase Greek letter; and physically, the only difference is a methyl group at the carbon-5 position. However! on a dynamic biochemical level these difference confer to the gamma-type the unique ability to detoxify nitric oxide, nitrogen dioxide, and peroxynitrite—the two former listed are free radicals and the latter a progenitor for such. Nitrogen has a proclivity for forming free radicals in water due to its valence, having five electrons in its outer shells (∶Ṅ∶). Since oxygen likes to form a double bond with nitrogen, and cannot even form a triple bond, what is left over (in the case of nitrogen dioxide) is an unpaired electron on the nitrogen atom (O=Ṅ=O): this is an instance of the notorious radical electron, which can only be neutralized by abstracting an unpaired electron from another molecule ⟶ forming a new free radical in the process and initiating a chain reaction. Alternatively, it can combine with yet another free radical thereby neutralizing them both (but this is a statistically unlikely event). Gamma-tocopherol safely traps the foregoing reactive nitrogen species on its ring in the very same place where α-tocopherol has a methyl group, which prevents this; this has been proven both in vitro and through the analysis of normal urinary metabolites—the presence of nitro-γ-tocopherol in the urine essentially proves this is physiologically relevant. Although 'vitamin A' supplementation is generally good, it can become slightly pathological when a person already consuming low amounts of γ-tocopherol decides to ingest high levels of α-tocopherol, exclusively, for long periods of time. Even among one variety, either synthetic α- or γ-tocopherol, there exists eight stereoisomers in the racemic mixture. The bond connectivity is identical among stereoisomers, the only difference being the 3-dimensional geometry (some being direct mirror images of each other). I don't think the seven less-active stereoisomers are dangerous, but only that our tocopherol-binding proteins are specific enough to discriminate between them (the RRR-stereoisomer is the most suitable, as this is what's synthesized by plants; our binding proteins have evolved towards having complimental geometry for this isomer only). This is one thing to keep in mind when tocopherol shopping, although I'm getting the impression that synthetic tocopherols are almost exclusively research chemicals, in practice, with 99% of commercial dietary supplements on the market being extracted from seeds (beans, grains, or nuts).

 

[Braveheart]

I view the situation as 'vitamin A' has always been good, but can actually become pathological in the specific case of a person taking enough α-tocopherol to deplete the protective γ-tocopherol found on the cell membrane; which I'd think would also require a somewhat low γ-tocopherol intake from food. In print, the difference is just one lowercase Greek letter; and physically, the only difference is a methyl group at the carbon-5 position. However! on a dynamic biochemical level these difference confer to the gamma-type the unique ability to detoxify nitric oxide, nitrogen dioxide, and peroxynitrite—the two former listed are free radicals and the latter a progenitor for such. Nitrogen has a proclivity for forming free radicals in water due to its valence, having five electrons in its outer shells (∶Ṅ∶). Since oxygen likes to form a double bond with nitrogen, and cannot even form a triple bond, what is left over (in the case of nitrogen dioxide) is an unpaired electron on the nitrogen atom (O=Ṅ=O): this is an instance of the notorious radical electron, which can only be neutralized by abstracting an unpaired electron from another molecule ⟶ forming a new free radical in the process and initiating a chain reaction. Alternatively, it can combine with yet another free radical thereby neutralizing them both (but this is a statistically unlikely event). Gamma-tocopherol safely traps the foregoing reactive nitrogen species on its ring in the very same place where α-tocopherol has a methyl group, which preventing this; this has been proven both in vitro and through the analysis of normal urinary metabolites—the presence of nitro-γ-tocopherol in the urine essentially proves this is physiologically relevant. Although 'vitamin A' supplementation is generally good, it can become slightly pathological when a person already consuming low amounts of γ-tocopherol decides to ingest high levels of α-tocopherol, exclusively, for long periods of time. Even among one variety, either synthetic α- or γ-tocopherol, there exists eight stereoisomers in the racemic mixture. The bond connectivity is identical among stereoisomers, the only difference being the 3-dimensional geometry (some being direct mirror images of each other). I don't think the seven less-active stereoisomers are dangerous, but only that our tocopherol-binding proteins are specific enough to discriminate between them (the RRR-stereoisomer is the most suitable, as this is what's synthesized by plants; our binding proteins have evolved towards having high-affinity for this isomer only). This is one thing to keep in mind when tocopherol shopping, although I'm getting the impression that synthetic tocopherols are almost exclusively research chemicals in practice, with 99% of commercial dietary supplements being extracted from seeds (beans, grains, or nuts).

thank you for the reply

 

[Kray]

For lack of anything better I take this once a week...465mg gamma....rest of week it's IdeaLabs....and min 200 selen. daily

https://www.vitacost.com/carlson-gamma-e-gems-465-mg-120-softgels

Can you provide the brand of selenium you take? Is it best to try to get from food sources? I know mushrooms are a good source, and Brazil nuts, altho I guess they’re a no-go.

 

[Braveheart]

Can you provide the brand of selenium you take? Is it best to try to get from food sources? I know mushrooms are a good source, and Brazil nuts, altho I guess they’re a no-go.

Solaray yeast free Selenium 100mcg l-selenomethionine...Vitacost

I try first to get most from variety of foods (track it)...no mushrooms, nuts...then supplement if I have to, to get me around 200mcg for weekly average....

 

[Braveheart]

I just located this on forum...a little more understandable for this old brain....might of been where I got my initial gamma/alpha ideas for supplementing...

Good Alpha/Gamma Tocopherol Ratio in Vitamin E Supplements

 

[Braveheart]

I'm grateful to Obi-Wan for starting this thread....going to revisit my vitamin e regimen to see where I can improve it. Thanks for all the comments...look forward to more....there is a lot of info on gamma/alpha ratio out there...just google it. It was my prostate issues that led me to gamma e.

 

[x-ray peat]

I just located this on forum...a little more understandable for this old brain....might of been where I got my initial gamma/alpha ideas for supplementing...

Good Alpha/Gamma Tocopherol Ratio in Vitamin E Supplements

I think his recommendation that the ideal alpha/gamma ratio is to match the serum levels of 4:1 is too simplistic. For one the ratio in human tissue is very different than it is in the blood at about 50/50.
Also clinical trials have shown that supplementing alpha/gamma at 4:1 would dramatically lower gamma levels. I dont think anyone knows the ideal ratio but I would think taking more gamma than alpha is closer to ideal

 

[Braveheart]

"I dont think anyone knows the ideal ratio but I would think taking more gamma than alpha is closer to ideal".....Yes!

 

[Kray]

Solaray yeast free Selenium 100mcg l-selenomethionine...Vitacost

I try first to get most from variety of foods (track it)...no mushrooms, nuts...then supplement if I have to, to get me around 200mcg for weekly average....

Thanks, had been looking @ that brand, like the dosage. When you say weekly average, do you mean 200mcg/day(per week), or that amount once weekly? What foods mainly do you rely on for Se?

Curious, why no shrooms?

 

[Kray]

I'm grateful to Obi-Wan for starting this thread....going to revisit my vitamin e regimen to see where I can improve it. Thanks for all the comments...look forward to more....there is a lot of info on gamma/alpha ratio out there...just google it. It was my prostate issues that led me to gamma e.

Has anyone looked at this brand?
Deva Vegan Vitamin E with Mixed Tocopherols 90 Vegan Caps - Swanson Health Products

 

[Braveheart]

Thanks, had been looking @ that brand, like the dosage. When you say weekly average, do you mean 200mcg/day(per week), or that amount once weekly? What foods mainly do you rely on for Se?

Curious, why no shrooms?

If I see my food selen under 100 for the day I take supp...I don't rely on any one thing...Peaty style eating gets me around 100...no shrooms here in subtropics...except expensive imported white button...don't see them as a big deal, but then haven't investigated.

 

[Braveheart]

Has anyone looked at this brand?
Deva Vegan Vitamin E with Mixed Tocopherols 90 Vegan Caps - Swanson Health Products

if they don't tell you the amt of gamma then its probably not enough...gamma more expensive.

 

[Kray]

if they don't tell you the amt of gamma then its probably not enough...gamma more expensive.

I thought more delta less gamma was better?

 

[Kray]

If I see my food selen under 100 for the day I take supp...I don't rely on any one thing...Peaty style eating gets me around 100...no shrooms here in subtropics...except expensive imported white button...don't see them as a big deal, but then haven't investigated.

Good, thanks for clarifying. Point well taken on avl’bility based on your location. I seem to remember milk may have fair amt of Se, but then that would depend on food cows eat.

 

[Travis]

I think his recommendation that the ideal alpha/gamma ratio is to match the serum levels of 4:1 is too simplistic. For one the ratio in human tissue is very different than it is in the blood at about 50/50.
Also clinical trials have shown that supplementing alpha/gamma at 4:1 would dramatically lower gamma levels. I dont think anyone knows the ideal ratio but I would think taking more gamma than alpha is closer to ideal

I agree. The 4∶1 ratio shouldn't necessarily be taken as axiomatic as there's great variation between species and also between different areas of the same species:

'In humans, consuming a Western diet the dietary levels of RRR-γ-tocopherol are much higher than that of RRR-α- tocopherol. It would be expected, therefore, that RRR-γ- tocopherol would make a significant contribution to the total tocopherol content of colonocytes. Levels of RRR-γ- tocopherol in human colonocytes are indeed higher than that of RRR-α-tocopherol [25].' ―Campbell​

I think it could have a higher turnover than α-tocopherol, especially in the blood where it'd be exposed to relatively high concentrations of ˙NO. I think perhaps a person could look at the urinary nitrated metabolites of γ-tocopherol to estimate the daily turnover rate, both in normal subjects and those with ongoing immune challenges (elevated ˙NO). It has been shown that peroxynitrite (O=Ṅ–O–O⁻) is formed spontaneously by nitric oxide (˙NO) and superoxide (˙O=O⁻), and this has further been shown to be the very best substrate for cyclooxygenase. Peroxynitrite actually appears to be the source for the cycloperoxide group characteristic of prostaglandin H:

This has been convincingly proven (Landino, 1996), and nitric oxide has also been shown to increase prostaglandin E₂ and D₂ levels in countless of other studies. But Landino also did show that both superoxide and nitric oxide were necessary, as both are needed to form peroxynitrite in solution. The addition of superoxide dismutase—and also other agents which can neutralize superoxide—significantly lower cyclooxgenase activity, as can be done by lowering nitric oxide. The addition of peroxynitrite and arachidonic acid forms prostaglandins more efficiently than anything so far tested.

Gamma-tocopherol has been shown to lower peroxynitrite concentrations,⁽¹⁾ lower prostaglandin production,⁽²⁾ reduce cancer proliferation in vitro,⁽³⁾ and found negatively correlated with such epidemiologically;⁽⁴⁾ I think this represents the most likely pathway. Prostaglandin E₂ induces proliferation, perhaps doing so largely on account of its ability to upregulate ornithine decarboxylase:⁽⁵⁾ a polyamine-forming enzyme.

[1] Christen, Stephan. "γ-Tocopherol traps mutagenic electrophiles such as NOx and complements α-tocopherol: physiological implications." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (1997)
[2] Landino, Lisa M.. "Peroxynitrite, the coupling product of nitric oxide and superoxide, activates prostaglandin biosynthesis." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (1996)
[3] Campbell, Sharon. "Comparative effects of RRR-alpha-and RRR-gamma-tocopherol on proliferation and apoptosis in human colon cancer cell lines." BMC cancer (2006)
[4] Helzlsouer, Kathy. "Association between α-tocopherol, γ-tocopherol, selenium, and subsequent prostate cancer." JNCI: Journal of the National Cancer Institute (2000)
[5] Osterman, Juraj. "Prostaglandin stimulation of ovarian ornithine decarboxylase in vitro." Biochemical and biophysical research communications (1978)​