Is Ray Peat Even Healthy?

[Dessert_All_Day]

Dr. Peat seems healthier than most people his age.

Having said that, even if he wasn't healthy, that wouldn't invalidate his theories.

 

[Cirion]

My own experiences lifting suggests that no, heavy lifting does not destroy joints, not in and of itself at least.
What does destroy your body, is over-doing it and over-stressing yourself. There's nothing wrong with a 500 lb deadlift - if it's well within your current strength levels and capabilities.

Even a 500 lb bench press is theoretically fine and healthy - again, if you have built up your stress tolerance to handle it.

Most people starting off here are unhealthy, and have no business powerlifting or anything like that - because their ability to handle stress is compromised, and heavy lifting, is indeed a major stressor. That is not to say that one cannot ever handle heavy lifting, but that health must be achieved first.

Some form of lifting is (probably) good for the average individual, but needs to be controlled.

In fact, form doesn't even fix the problem. Perfect form or not, stress is still stress and can and will cause knee pain, shoulder pain, etc. I know because I've been there - I had coaches who taught me perfect form and I was still in pain. This also explains why some meatheads have awful form and never get injured - because they are very healthy. I'm not promoting bad form here, just saying it's not the panacea that many feel it is. My experience has firsthand shown me that what causes knee pain is not knee tracking over the toes or any of that nonsense. Knee pain is caused by too much squatting for your current capability - nothing more nothing less. Same with back pain. That being said, you shouldn't round your back, of course. Basic form should be achieved. Being OCD about perfect form is what I'm arguing against though.

I love powerlifting but in my current state of health, is just not for me. I can't even make it through a moderate lower body workout without trashing my endocrine system. I can usually handle a decent upper body workout though.

tl;dr: heavy lifting is a major stressor to the body. Too much accumulation of stress causes pain, not lifting in and of itself.

 

[jb116]

My own experiences lifting suggests that no, heavy lifting does not destroy joints, not in and of itself at least.
What does destroy your body, is over-doing it and over-stressing yourself. There's nothing wrong with a 500 lb deadlift - if it's well within your current strength levels and capabilities.

Even a 500 lb bench press is theoretically fine and healthy - again, if you have built up your stress tolerance to handle it.

Most people starting off here are unhealthy, and have no business powerlifting or anything like that - because their ability to handle stress is compromised, and heavy lifting, is indeed a major stressor. That is not to say that one cannot ever handle heavy lifting, but that health must be achieved first.

Some form of lifting is (probably) good for the average individual, but needs to be controlled.

In fact, form doesn't even fix the problem. Perfect form or not, stress is still stress and can and will cause knee pain, shoulder pain, etc. I know because I've been there - I had coaches who taught me perfect form and I was still in pain. This also explains why some meatheads have awful form and never get injured - because they are very healthy. I'm not promoting bad form here, just saying it's not the panacea that many feel it is. My experience has firsthand shown me that what causes knee pain is not knee tracking over the toes or any of that nonsense. Knee pain is caused by too much squatting for your current capability - nothing more nothing less. Same with back pain. That being said, you shouldn't round your back, of course. Basic form should be achieved. Being OCD about perfect form is what I'm arguing against though.

I love powerlifting but in my current state of health, is just not for me. I can't even make it through a moderate lower body workout without trashing my endocrine system. I can usually handle a decent upper body workout though.

tl;dr: heavy lifting is a major stressor to the body. Too much accumulation of stress causes pain, not lifting in and of itself.

I would add "bad technique" as a destructive element.

 

[Cirion]

I would add "bad technique" as a destructive element.

True, and I agree, truly horrific technique needs to be avoided, like a rounded back like a camel while deadlifting/squatting is going to be the quickest way to the surgery room lol.

Weightlifting only seems to be beneficial for my hormones if I take it easy and still feel energetic after the workout. If I am even remotely fatigued by the end of my workout, it's detrimental for my hormones.

Quickest way to trash hormones is to lift heavy/hard enough to where you feel light headed, red-faced, grunting to make it through sets etc. I used to do all these things, and it was fun while it lasted, but now I'm paying the price for it.

To be clear, I try to still lift reasonably heavy weights. This isn't necessarily an excuse to stick to 20 lb weights the rest of your life. For ex, I did a pyramid scheme for DB incline bench up to 65 lb db's for 10 reps earlier this week. Certainly not super impressive, but I still try to at least maintain decent strength levels. I can do those reps easily though, without grunting or straining myself.

 

[Spokey]

People used to get exogenous thyroid all the time from diet. It's only recently that it isn't so commonly available in modern food chains. So people taking thyroid can just be seen as making up for the deficit of thyroid that would have been available in former generation's diets. This applies to other hormones too. So there doesn't seem in that light, to be a contradiction between healthy and relying on exogenous hormones. If our diets, or the food available, suddenly stopped supplying vitamin C, how would it make sense to criticize someone dosing ascorbic acid to prevent scurvy?

 

[sladerunner69]

The shoulder capsule is wide open and vulnerable in the position with the bar and I said I addressed the masses who don't know what they are doing, not people in elite levels being coached by elite trainers. Most young guys going to the gym just jump on the bench press and don't have access to educated people and most personal trainers don't know this as they are not taught unless self studying. I don't know why you mentioned that that Rich took a massssive amount of drugs, its got nothing to do with what I said.



I am more in favour of outdoor gyms that are free and the movements performed allow the body to move in which it does naturally.

Ray has said that a person will burn more calories walking in nature than a treadmill due to the complex environment of nature.

I spent 4 years in the fitness industry and studied at the CHEK Institute, worked with osteopaths, physios, strength coaches, I've got this big book on kinesiology by written by a surgeon but I can't remember the name and it came from that learning so I don't have any literature.

If one studies human bio mechanics they will begin to understand sheer forces and angles in which the machines at the gym for the joints to be in. I am a car mechanic before fitness industry and I already understood forces and systems of systems so it was easier for me to begin to understand the human body and how the gym is detrimental to it in a general sense for general people.

I did learn that some elite strength coaches in olympic athlete fields or football I cannot remember but they know that the leg press destroys the knees and takes a few years but they don't care because the lifetime of an athlete at those elite levels is relatively short lived and the leg press is an effective way of building mass in the quadriceps.

For the general masses this is not good because they are not athletes or making millions of dollars from their bodys.

We are not machines we are human beings living in a dynamic 3 dimensional world.

So you don't have any scientific literature to share with me? That's a shame I would be interested in reading that. I have never seen nor heard of a study which demonstrated that weightlifting was detrimental to the joints. I would like to know if there was one. I have read "body by science" which is essentially a strength training program designed by PhD's in physiology and such, and they recommend strength training as therapeutic for the joints and point to some well constructed studies which showed that seniors with joint and bone health issues improved dramatically after following a program for a couple years. Another central message of the book is their assertion that most bodybuilders, weightlifters, gym rat, are yes in fact spending far too much time in the gym. Their program is fully just one 20 minute session performed once every seven to ten days. They believe that weightlifting can cause problems without adequate recovery time, and that most guys aren't achieving full recovery especially with the nervous system and ligaments and joints, even if they are letting the muscles fully recover. So I think your observations could ultimately be due tot he fact that weightlifters very often don't give enough time for recovery, because most of them are lifting 4-5 days a week for at least an hour each workout.

 

[sladerunner69]

Good point... BUT, from what i have seen and read, not weight training and getting stronger basically ages you because you are more likely to break bones and get cancer if you don't do these types of activities regularly. Ray peat loves to point out the fact that an organism with a higher metabolism always outlives one with a lower metabolism when nutrient requirements are met. Weight training directly causes an increased need for nutrients via losing electrolytes and minerals through sweat, burning more calories, causing mircotrauma, etc.

Oh yeah? what's the metabolic rate of that alien tyrannid in your avatar? Does he get adequate nutrients?

I never said weightlifting was bad, in fact I have read many studies and literature to say that it improves joint and bone health and lifespan if done in moderation. I believe the key is to not go overboard with 4-5 long weightlifting sessions each week. I do believe that for health and longevity one short workout every 7-10 days is most optimal, and if you want to go to the gym more often then spend your other time on the rowing machine, stationary bike, or uphill treadmill at moderate paces. Abs and calves excercises can also be performed more often than larger muscle groups because they are composed of slow twitch fibers which are designed for endurance tasks.

 

[Eric Yim]

People used to get exogenous thyroid all the time from diet. It's only recently that it isn't so commonly available in modern food chains. So people taking thyroid can just be seen as making up for the deficit of thyroid that would have been available in former generation's diets. This applies to other hormones too. So there doesn't seem in that light, to be a contradiction between healthy and relying on exogenous hormones. If our diets, or the food available, suddenly stopped supplying vitamin C, how would it make sense to criticize someone dosing ascorbic acid to prevent scurvy?

Only if they ate the thyroid glands of other animals.

 

[Eric Yim]

Oh yeah? what's the metabolic rate of that alien tyrannid in your avatar? Does he get adequate nutrients?

I never said weightlifting was bad, in fact I have read many studies and literature to say that it improves joint and bone health and lifespan if done in moderation. I believe the key is to not go overboard with 4-5 long weightlifting sessions each week. I do believe that for health and longevity one short workout every 7-10 days is most optimal, and if you want to go to the gym more often then spend your other time on the rowing machine, stationary bike, or uphill treadmill at moderate paces. Abs and calves excercises can also be performed more often than larger muscle groups because they are composed of slow twitch fibers which are designed for endurance tasks.

It is a meme. Lol. Search apyr on google.

 

[sladerunner69]

It is a meme. Lol. Search apyr on google.

Oh it's a deathclaw. I love the Fallout series, very informative and peat-friendly.

 

[frannybananny]

Good question. I think for Peat a big part of his thyroid use comes from decades of living with a lower metabolism and feeling unwell. Him feeling weak and sickly is part of what got him passionate with nutrition in the beginning. By the late 70's he was already at least 40 years old, and 4 decades can really degrade the metabolism and make it weak. So he uses it to elevate his thyroid level to what he describes is a strong youthful metabolism.

Furthermore, using thyroid has numerous benefits, which are systemic. Many people who take it do so because they see improvements with few drawbacks. Of course there are causes for concern such as going into hyperthyroidism but even then we see many people feel not too bad even when in a hyper state. What I am trying to explain succinctly is that even a person in great health with a good metabolism, pulse around 70-80 and solid temps can benefit from thyroid hormone.

But did he take the natural dessicated Thyroid? In one of his articles he states that the kind of synthetic thyroid that most doctors prescribe is not good for T4 only good for T3 and sometimes a weak liver has trouble converting it to T4? I am confused about the the thyroid issue since my doctor will ONLY prescribe Levothyroxine, the synthetic which produces T3. I also don't understand why he was so against people taking Iodine as it supports the thyroid and most people are deficient? Can someone explain this better to me? Does anyone here taking J Crowe's Iodine drops?

 

[Herbie]

So you don't have any scientific literature to share with me? That's a shame I would be interested in reading that. I have never seen nor heard of a study which demonstrated that weightlifting was detrimental to the joints. I would like to know if there was one. I have read "body by science" which is essentially a strength training program designed by PhD's in physiology and such, and they recommend strength training as therapeutic for the joints and point to some well constructed studies which showed that seniors with joint and bone health issues improved dramatically after following a program for a couple years. Another central message of the book is their assertion that most bodybuilders, weightlifters, gym rat, are yes in fact spending far too much time in the gym. Their program is fully just one 20 minute session performed once every seven to ten days. They believe that weightlifting can cause problems without adequate recovery time, and that most guys aren't achieving full recovery especially with the nervous system and ligaments and joints, even if they are letting the muscles fully recover. So I think your observations could ultimately be due tot he fact that weightlifters very often don't give enough time for recovery, because most of them are lifting 4-5 days a week for at least an hour each workout.

Shame on me.

 

[jb116]

But did he take the natural dessicated Thyroid? In one of his articles he states that the kind of synthetic thyroid that most doctors prescribe is not good for T4 only good for T3 and sometimes a weak liver has trouble converting it to T4? I am confused about the the thyroid issue since my doctor will ONLY prescribe Levothyroxine, the synthetic which produces T3. I also don't understand why he was so against people taking Iodine as it supports the thyroid and most people are deficient? Can someone explain this better to me? Does anyone here taking J Crowe's Iodine drops?

The typical prescribed thyroid med is T4, not T3. Also synthetic is not synonymous with T4 or T3 only. Synthetic can be T3 only, T4 only or a combo of both.
Most people are not deficient in iodine. They need trace amounts which you can derive from seafood for example. Increased iodine intake would be useful when exposed to radiation.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Peat only takes thyroid in the winter

False.

 

[Eric Yim]

False.

Yeah, it doesn't work like that. Once you go on thyroid medication you really can't go completely off of it. Hey Westside, what are your thoughts on wheat germ?

 

[Luckytype]

Yeah, it doesn't work like that. Once you go on thyroid medication you really can't go completely off of it. Hey Westside, what are your thoughts on wheat germ?

There are times that post partum women are prescribed thyroid for something like 6 -10 weeks to help combat the crazy dysregulation that comes from squeezing out a bambino. After that I believe they are tapered off and are fine. Obviouslyba different system from a male.

The thyroid doesnt just give up randomly. Biology wouldnt just allow that. Usually its a stressor cycle(use my chronic exercising as an example) where the body down regulates its own gas pedal as reserves are exhausted but then the down regulation serves to deny protective and metabolic things from being created so it down regulates more.

Its probably also worth noting that whether Ray takes thyroid however so often he needs or wants to its like saying a 400,000mi toyota wont need a bit of assistance or a rebuild. And since the body cant be rebuilt and things tend to get a little tired over time that his supplement choice may or may not be simply because the man has been alive for 8 decades. At that point if you can assist the body safely to maintain for another decade, why wouldnt you with something simple, clean and somewhat bio identical

 

[sladerunner69]

But did he take the natural dessicated Thyroid? In one of his articles he states that the kind of synthetic thyroid that most doctors prescribe is not good for T4 only good for T3 and sometimes a weak liver has trouble converting it to T4? I am confused about the the thyroid issue since my doctor will ONLY prescribe Levothyroxine, the synthetic which produces T3. I also don't understand why he was so against people taking Iodine as it supports the thyroid and most people are deficient? Can someone explain this better to me? Does anyone here taking J Crowe's Iodine drops?

I have heard Ray write about iodine actually suppressing the thyroid and that anything above the amount we get from seafood is likely overdoing it. Also taking pure synthetic t3 is likely a better option than levothyroxine, whatever the heck that is.

Shame on me.

Not at all man. I was wondering what you thought about "body by science" since maybe you had read it. You sounded knowledgeable on the subject is all.

There are times that post partum women are prescribed thyroid for something like 6 -10 weeks to help combat the crazy dysregulation that comes from squeezing out a bambino. After that I believe they are tapered off and are fine. Obviouslyba different system from a male.

The thyroid doesnt just give up randomly. Biology wouldnt just allow that. Usually its a stressor cycle(use my chronic exercising as an example) where the body down regulates its own gas pedal as reserves are exhausted but then the down regulation serves to deny protective and metabolic things from being created so it down regulates more.

Its probably also worth noting that whether Ray takes thyroid however so often he needs or wants to its like saying a 400,000mi toyota wont need a bit of assistance or a rebuild. And since the body cant be rebuilt and things tend to get a little tired over time that his supplement choice may or may not be simply because the man has been alive for 8 decades. At that point if you can assist the body safely to maintain for another decade, why wouldnt you with something simple, clean and somewhat bio identical

Lucky, what's your take on weightlifting being bad for the joints? And training until absolute failure of the muscle, do you think that is bad for the metabolism?

 

[Luckytype]

Lucky, what's your take on weightlifting being bad for the joints? And training until absolute failure of the muscle, do you think that is bad for the metabolism?

I agree with the t3 vs levo especially in compromised people at the start of the treatment. It provides relief to live/sleep, energizes the cells so the body can do what it needs to do and if someone is pooling like rt3 because the body says "not right now" it will help clear it. As long as you can babysit your t3(which most of us watch temps and do snacks and meals) and watch the dose to be very small at first its a nice easy way to feel better.


The weightlifting thing has a couple answers.

Its well known that loading a joint is what allows for nutrients and oxygen to perfuse into the tissue. Obviously walking can accompliah this but synovial joints when cared for are fine in the long hail.

Mechanically: if you are doing things incorrectly or something that you are not built for/something that doesnt load your muscles properly/causes you pain - youre going to get hurt or cause issues with time.

Bottomline: If it hurts, either your body cant activate things yet, some portion acting on the joint is tight, weak or both OR you just arent built to do it.

Theres a ton of ***t regarding this but..

Example 1: I am absolutely not built for barbell pressing on a flat or incline bench and I cannot do military press with a barbell without pain. I recognized this early and prevented a ton of issues. Solution for me: I use dumbells. It allows for my own movement and allows me to position myself in better power - and personally I like a lot of acclimation work before heavier loads and I do my compounds last - despite what all the "magazines" and online coach garbage recommends.

Example 2: I am posterior chain dominant when I squat. I squat **** to grass. My stance is narrow and my knees travel IN LINE with my feet but also out over. My glutes and hamstrings grow much easier than my quads. Eventually this leads to a tightness dysfunction. Add to the fact that the medial head of my own quad, the VMO(google this) is dormant compared to the lateral head so my patella tends to track a little goofy which leads to crazy knee pain.

Solution: Im the only person in my gym squatting at the end of a workout, the only person using a clean grip front squat so I can focus on loading my quads. I do all my non core involved stuff first and I recommend single leg stuff with a balance(like a hand on a rack) so you can concentrate on the movement without thinking "im going to fall over". Train balance separate.


That said, poor mechanics will absolutely send you with a one way ticket to snapcity. Maybe not immediately but tons of guys have issues into adulthood because they just HAD to flat bench or backsquat. Hell I would love to throw weight, but my joints are important so I have always checked ego.

However if youre mechanically good and its pain free, go for it

Read: too many people dont realize they dont have to take the "program" they read online literally.


As far as metabolism I think its a dynamic situation and multi faceted.

I think for hardgainers, training past failure can be helpful SOMETIMES. This is assuming they are metabolically near perfect.

I absolutely think that efficient mechanical work is much more effective than metabolically taxing work(pump, burn, extended sets) with less than perfect mechanics.

So momentary failure > metabolic conditioning in some cases.

So if two metabolically compromised people(me now) had to use the gym, i think until their health is restored and they can create energy efficiently, I think the rise in catecholamines and the unexpected drop in energy producers in the longer sets are really bad. I was a huge proponent of intensity when healthy, but I think instead of maximizing tension in a set, a compromised lifter should focus on mechanics and keeping the sets short. If you get a pump fine, but the second you need to take a non normal breath it means lactate threshold is reached, youre crossing out of phosphocreatine/glycolytic energy and more toward slow oxidative glyco/aero energy and the body is looking to find 02 to continue the work and buffer the waste. The issue is compromised people tend to have pathetic mito function to begin with so asking a stress task is bot a good idea. Sets are probably going to be shorter(probably 20-25 sec vs the usual 40-60 sec)

So absolute failure in a healthy person? If the mechanics are there its probably fine sparingly or in a shorter training cycle because they can dissolve the stress. In a compromised person, no way would I try it if health was a priority, not until it returned. As people get better I think approaching momentary failure is fine as long as the set is short, but again only when your own metrics are good and your health markers are better. Full rest between sets is a really good idea here too.(never thought id say that either)

Ill probably edit this, ill put extra edits below this line.

TL;DR
1. Find exercises that work for you, not the program your buddy is on
1b. Mechanics and control trump everything
2. If it hurts dont do it
3. Failure is fine if youre healthy, probably not if youre metabolically compromised because your mitochondria suck
4. Keep 3 or so reps in the tank at the end of a set that is short and with controlled breathing

 

[michael94]

something ive found very helpful is working on off hand/leg dexterity

 

[Herbie]

Not at all man. I was wondering what you thought about "body by science" since maybe you had read it. You sounded knowledgeable on the subject is all.

I haven't read it but I agree with what they are saying and I think was taught by people who learnt from that book. Charles Poliquin is someone I have purchased books of and read a lot of articles by, although I don't agree with his diet and supplement recommendations which some totally oppose Rays ideas, he has great experience with training athletes and respects posture.

I think there is solid literature that have findings with what I'm referring too, I haven't the time to find them, maybe have a search around. especially people talking about rotator cuff and bench press. I learnt heaps from Paul Chek about the machines not being good for joints but not sure where he was getting his info from but he has a lot of experience and knowledge on the body from an holistic standpoint. I don't agree with a lot of what he says in regards to diet and spirituality and is authoritarian but his work in the gym and the physical body is valuable.