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Is Pasteruzied Milk Really So Inferior To Raw Milk?

Discussion in 'Milk' started by welshwing, Nov 2, 2015.

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  1. welshwing

    welshwing Member

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    This link says a lot of bad things about non-raw milk, even that pasteurization inhibits the majority of calcium and phosphorus found in raw milk.

    http://www.realmilk.com/health/raw-milk ... ized-milk/

    Probably pasteurization’s worst offence is that it makes insoluable the major part of the calcium contained in raw milk. This frequently leads to rickets, bad teeth, and nervous troubles, for sufficient calcium content is vital to children; and with the loss of phosphorus also associated with calcium, bone and breain formation suffer serious setbacks.

    My milk says in 1 cup (regardless of fat %) it contains 30% calcium, is all that calcium just "inhibited" and worthless? Nutritiondata.self.com for milk (skim or low fat) says milk (in general) has 30% calcium, 25% phosphorus and overall VERY nutritious. Is it just wrong because pasteurization has degraded the milk?

    http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dai ... ucts/139/2

    Is it true pasteurization is so bad or is it just propoganda against non-raw milk? Ray Peat never specifies we have to drink raw milk and in fact says 1% is best, even says he doesn't drink milk with added Vitamin A because it gives him issues. Why would Ray Peat recommend "changing milk brands if one ives you allergies" if pasteurization degrades the milk according to realmilk.com? Please tell me that site is lie.
     
  2. jaguar43

    jaguar43 Member

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    I used to drink raw milk and it's no better in my opinion. It's extremely expensive and loaded with cream, which lowers the percent of calcium.

    I think the weston a price and other affiliated groups have promoted raw milk through it's financial motivations. They make a lot of promises but it's extremely unreliable and dogmatic. They believe in mainstream science and biochemistry that is promoted at the universities and educational systems.

    i think one would worry about the anti-milk propaganda all together.Which is more powerful and convincing. Versus the pro raw milk groups which is a minority in the alternative health industry.
     
  3. OP
    welshwing

    welshwing Member

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    I was raised on a milk brand called "Gloria" and after Googling it I see it was ultra-pasteurized. I still developed strong bones, good teeth and never had a cavity until I stopped drinking milk and went on a dumb low-carb diet. I also drank milk with added A & D and never had any problems, in fact I never liked to brush my teeth as a child and still never had cavities so I think the calcium and other nutrients in pasteurized milk ARE FINE. Why do sites like this exist that spread lies to make people feel bad for not having access to raw milk? I think the best thing would be to localize more milk without additives like Ray Peat says are fine.
     
  4. Derek

    Derek Guest

    I've drank many different types of milk (raw, pasteurized, goat, cow, etc..) It really makes no difference, they all have the same effect. Actually, the bacteria in raw milk can be incredibly problematic for someone with hypothyroidism/diminished peristalsis. If heating the milk to 160 degrees for 10 seconds inhibits mineral absorption and makes calcium unusable; I wonder how I had incredible teeth and bones when I was eating frozen pizzas everyday? The cheese was cooked at 450 degrees for 15 minutes and I still had strong bones/teeth eating that "damaged" cheese.
     
  5. Nicholas

    Nicholas Member

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    i drank raw milk for a couple years and it seems so pointless now considering the travel to raw milk places and the incredibly high costs. If there were any benefits i didn't notice any...well, i do notice that raw milk does give me an initial/short-term energy buzz that i don't get from other milks. I try to get low-temp pasteurized now but am even experimenting with ultra-past. i haven't noticed problems with either. i would prefer consistently the low temp past. only because it's the only brand i can find that's non-homogenized.....and i can get 1% that doesn't have added Vit. A. You could even research for hours on the perils of homogenization....but it may be even as unfounded as past. milk being the devil. Eventually i realized that past. or even home-boiled raw milk probably makes more sense as it provides a more consistent product for your system. If one is always consuming raw milk, you are at the mercy of the inconsistent bacteria (good or bad) that the cow is producing. The only other problem potentially with pasteurized milk is that it's usually from large dairies where conditions may not be ideal and estrogen levels may be higher. So when buying pasteurized, i at least try to get grass-fed and (without having researched it) hope it's better living conditions than the commercial milks.
     
  6. tara

    tara Member

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    I thought it was homogenisation rather than pasteurisation that affected digestibility?
    I expect pasteurisation to do some damage and potentially to somewhat reduce vitamin content. And to kill off most unwanted microbes.

    Peat has said some people do better on pasteurised and some on ultra-pasteurised.

    I suspect that realmilk quote is a bit hyperbolic when it comes to pasteurised milk frequently leading to rickets etc. I grew up drinking lots of pasteurised milk too.
     
  7. onioneyedox

    onioneyedox Member

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    Peat said on one of the older Herb Doctor shows that homogenisation shouldn't be a problem, the fat is "homogenised" by digestion anyway. May be especially full fat homogenized milk can "digest too quickly" and be a problem.

    I think WAPF people say that lactoferrin is somewhat destroyed in pasteurization process. And some stuff in is in the fat globules (lactoferrin/vitamins, can't remember) which homogenization degrades.

    Only problem I have ever had with milk regardless of type is lactose. Damn, how hard it can be to break it down? It seems to be very easy food fast food for gas producing bacteria, haha.
     
  8. Ulla

    Ulla Member

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    I see UHT milk problematic because of casein micelle complexes, which are held by calcium phosphate and are broken up through homogenization. This exposes the tightly held fat molecules to calcium, producing calcium soaps. These soaps can produce gut irritation and decrease the bioavailability of calcium.
    I read that in Kate Deering book... :|
     
  9. Ulla

    Ulla Member

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    I am quoting myself because I would like to include more milk into my life but having a second thought doing it by UHT milk.
    I am thinking like that:
    Is "fat free UHT" milk "safe" because it has so little fat, then there shouldn't be so called calcium soaps?
    Am I right?
     
  10. smith

    smith Member

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    The bottle of pasteurized milk I just bought from whole foods had little black fibers in it. I threw it out
     
  11. boxers

    boxers Member

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    I get really good raw milk for $6 a gal. Who knows if its better than regular
     
  12. boxers

    boxers Member

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    Which is more preferable to give to young children?
     
  13. RisingSun

    RisingSun Member

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    Fat free UHT? Sounds like just water + sugar
     
  14. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    Funny that no one seems to notice that the original post linked to a story from 1938!

    Some of the claims may have been true for pasteurization processes at the time, but no longer apply to modern processes. Others may have thought to have been true, but turned out later to be inaccurate.

    It's also pretty clear the article was written to defend people's ability to continue to buy raw milk, something I certainly agree with. Some claims may have been exaggerated in the article for that reason. Sadly, that battle has been largely lost already.
     
  15. Jing

    Jing Member

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    I can only drink raw milk other milks give me constipation and stomach aches and can make me feel more depressed .. for me I can tell the difference and raw milk seems superior except the price .. I have a feeling store brought milk could be worse from not being as fresh and enzymes are destroyed through heat.
     
  16. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    If you purchase raw milk today, it is guaranteed to be of higher quality than common brands. It's only going to be sold by farms and dairies that are really "on their game" when it comes to quality and health practices, otherwise, they are really making themselves a target for lawsuits and legislation. I wonder if you would find the same difference if you did a test between your favorite raw milk and a small, quality pasteurized dairy, for example, compaing Organic Pastures to Strauss, if you live in CA.
     
  17. Jib

    Jib Member

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    I'm tempted to get back into buying raw milk from a local farm. It's a beautiful place, and I really like the idea of supporting a local farm. I believe they also make and sell pasteurized chocolate milk, as well as a bunch of other goodies like cheese and yogurt and gelato.

    However, I'm very lucky to have access to this place, which is about a 30 minute drive from where I live. It isn't super close, but that isn't extremely far. And they sell a gallon of raw milk for $9 a gallon, which is a great price compared to some other places I've heard of. Lots of other people are not so lucky. On the downside, I'm on a pretty strict budget as I have very little money coming in. The extra cost for gas and the extra cost for the raw milk might not be feasible for me in the long run.

    It probably isn't worth worrying too much about commercial milk if it's all you have available. I've been drinking commercial whole milk, pasteurized, homogenized, and feel good on it. Granted, it's only been a couple weeks, but results have been good so far, and I haven't had milk in my diet for over 9 years.

    I prefer whole milk because it's not fortified with Vitamin A palmitate, and I think it uses less D3 as well than reduced fat milks. I've naturally been eating much less (if any) cheese after adding milk to my diet, and my consumption of meat has gone way down too. Also my consumption of fruit juice has gone down. I simply don't want anywhere near as much, and prefer to eat whole oranges, apples, bananas, blueberries, and sometimes dried cherries and raisins with some oatmeal.

    Raw milk may have advantages over pasteurized. For me, the main 'advantage' would be getting out of the house, supporting a local farm, and potentially feeling more connected to my community. I am 100% sure the milk is of higher quality, sure. The cows are treated very well and graze on open pasture. And it's very likely the raw milk has more in-tact nutrients, better fat composition, and probably a better hormonal profile because the cows are very healthy and eating a much more natural diet with lots of grass.

    But it's dangerous for people, IMO, to completely write off dairy if they don't have access to raw dairy, for financial or location reasons. The potential benefits of even commercial dairy are huge. Ray's written a lot about it, and I only recently jumped on the bandwagon and started drinking milk again, after stubbornly neglecting it for many years.

    I've been doing very well with regular old commercial milk, and as I understand it, Ray's been drinking a lot of reduced fat commercial pasteurized/homogenized milk for many years now, and is doing fine. Raw milk from a happy local farm run by good people with a healthy herd of cattle is idyllic, but not feasible for all. Even for me, it might end up being an occasional treat instead of a dietary staple.

    I'm only slightly worried that after drinking raw Jersey milk I won't want to go back to the grocery store stuff :p But seriously, it's important to remember, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."
     
  18. Jib

    Jib Member

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    Update:

    Got some raw milk. Had a pint. Extreme diarrhea not too long later.

    I decided to pasteurize it. 161-165 F, held for 15 or 20 seconds. Cooled by putting the pot in a big bin of cold water, then back into the jug and into the freezer, then the fridge after a while. Next time I'll use a trick I heard: frozen water bottles in a bin of cold water. Cooling after pasteurizing is very important.

    After pasteurizing and chilling, it tasted even better (IMO of course, strange opinion, I know). And no digestive issues even after having 2 quarts. That was yesterday. Had another quart today already and still no issues. Love it.

    The people I get the milk from also make chocolate milk, which is pasteurized. They may see it as a strange request, but I might see if they'll do pasteurized milk for me. Would certainly be a lot easier.

    Pasteurized, homogenized milk from the grocery store is probably fine, but this Jersey milk tastes far better to me. I'll have to decide if it's worth the expense. FWIW, for the time being anyway, I seem to tolerate pasteurized milk much, much better than raw milk. Not sure about homogenization. Probably not worth worrying about, but I do appreciate that the local milk here is non-homogenized, just in case.
     
  19. Waremu

    Waremu Member

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    I had a similar issue after taking a break from raw milk (to do a dairy free experiment) for a while and reintroducing it. I suspect, my gut health decline from all the heavy fibrous plant food matter I was consuming, from plant carbohydrates. So I did a heavy binge of eating extra carrot salads and bamboo shoots and taking some other anti-biotic substances. After a few weeks of doing that and cutting starch out and replacing it only with whole fruits, I was able to start adding in my raw milk again. But this time, I brought the milk to a boiled and cooled it before drinking. I then was able to go from doing that to slowly having the raw milk uncooked again. But I do notice, that, even with the raw milk, digestion is best if it is at least warm, as is more natural anyway (babies drink their milk warm).

    Even if I have to continue to boil the milk for best digestion, I still find it superior to store-bought pasteurized milk because it is fresher and has no vitamins added to it, or off-label ingredients like gums, as is reportedly the case with a number of normal milk brands and even organic milk brands. If one has a milk-centric diet like I currently do, then its no option for me to use store-bought milk because of not just off-label ingredients, but because the amount of Vitamin A and D added would add up to being way too high for me, which isn't very natural because the added Vitamin A and D content of store bought milk is much higher than the Vitamin A and D that is naturally in the raw milk. So that way I am getting a better balance of Vitamin A and D naturally, and not potentially 'overdosing' on them. And of course there is the homogenization of store bought milk, which I see as the next main concern next to the added vitamins and off-label ingredients. Homogenization concerns me more than pasteurization (which isn't a huge issue for me). I also agree, it is nice to support local farmers as well.

    I also found that boiling ginger with milk greatly helps with my digestion, and tastes great --- and potentially has some strong anti-serotonin effects from the ginger.
     
  20. Jib

    Jib Member

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    Will have to try the ginger in milk. That sounds really good! Also, very interesting experience with raw milk. Just even the 'healthy' bacteria it seems our body needs to adapt to, but can over time.

    I do wonder how Ray fairs drinking plain old supermarket milk? I'm assuming that's what he does. My finances are not great right now, and good milk is definitely a luxury. If it has to be a once in a while treat, so be it. I do think it's worth considering Ray hasn't said anything about homogenization, except (if I remember right) that he doesn't think it's problematic because digestion will "homogenize" the fats anyway.

    The added vitamins are definitely a pain. I was considering getting skim milk, and adding pure heavy cream, to make my own "unhomogenized" milk. However, there are NO heavy creams anywhere in any of my local stores that don't have carageenan, polysorbate 80, or some other type of gum or "mono and diglycerides."

    Years ago, I clearly remember some local heavy cream having ONLY cream as the ingredient. Nothing else. And it was great. Used to make sour cream out of it using kefir grains. Came out fantastic. I'm surprised now that the very same dairy has gone to using carageenan and polysorbate 80 in their cream. And the rest of the brands? Same exact thing. Light cream is available with no additives, but defeats the purpose, as it's just homogenized milk and cream. So frustrating!

    And yes. The added A and D are likely far beyond what would be in normal raw milk. And just unnecessary. I am more worried about A than D, especially being wary of Grant Genereaux's theory of vitamin A toxicity. I'm not 100% sold on that, but wary. I still feel great eating lots and lots of mandarin oranges, and am not concerned much about that. But drinking up to a half gallon a day of milk, that much added vitamin A cannot be good.

    So for me, personally, it's either local raw milk, or storebought whole milk. Ray's said that whole milk is the least likely to be allergenic as it doesn't have added vitamin A. I think the amount of D added is also less than the amount that's in lower fat milks.

    I'm not *too* worried about gaining fat, as I've noticed since I've introduced milk into my diet, my consumption of other foods has dropped drastically. Especially meat. And my desire to eat whole fruits has gone way up. My desire for fruit juices way down, probably from the water content in the milk satisfying my hydration needs.

    I am a little worried though, and will keep an eye out for it. There is a fair amount of PUFA in milk. Not a lot, but in quantity, not a negligible amount. I'd consider coconut oil to have a negligible amount. And even then, I've considered using fully hydrogenated coconut oil to more fully avoid PUFA.
     
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