Is Low Estrogen Possible??

TAG145

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After pouring over Peat's articles and this forum, I am still a bit unclear whether a woman can truly have low estrogen and what lab tests can be done to make sure the estrogen level is accurate. I am 51 yo woman, with diagnosed endometriosis in my late teens. Over the years I have always made a conscious effort to watch for estrogens in my environment, in my food, etc. I also use Progesterone regularly (either Progest-E or Progesterone in Vit E from Forefront Health). My saliva hormone tests over the years have shown I have a good level of Progesterone to Estrogen.
3 months post op from a major surgery I started having extreme hot/cold "flashes" that I thought was related to my meds but once off those, I think it is perimenopause. My most recent saliva test is showing almost zero estrogen. I need relief from these flashes because they are so bad I don't sleep at all.
My question is whether I should truly be looking at low estrogen? Everything I've read on here and Peat's articles is saying Progesterone is the way to go but I have already been taking pretty good quantities of progesterone and experimented during these hot flashes with it and I think it does make them worse. I don't want to add estrogen because of all the evils, but IF I am truly low then I do need some. My dr. recommended Black Cohosh. I know there are some herbal remedies, which is the route I'd go--not estrogen directly. Any insight would be awesome!
Thank you.
 
Z

Zsazsa

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This forum isn't a good place for someone dealing with low estrogen. Having said that, personally I found Red Clover more useful than Black Cohosh (I had to find out about it by myself). However, it worked for very few months. Then I had my doctor to prescribe me bioidentical estradiol (transdermal). It worked for several years before my liver could not tolerate it anymore.
 

Blossom

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Surgery is a major stressor so I’d expect it might take a bit of time for everything to rebalance. Of course you are at the appropriate age range for the menopausal transition as well so I think you’re wise to consider that these symptoms are related to that possibility. My understanding of Peat is that our bodies still technically have enough estrogen it is just tissue bound. Some women here have actually had success going temporarily higher on progesterone for relief. We’ve also had a couple members who reported being helped by topical bio identical estrogen (as @Zsazsa mentioned) which isn’t a Peat recommendation but it helped them nonetheless. Honestly I think everyone’s experience of menopause is a bit unique and unfortunately there’s not a lot of guidance out there. Hopefully that will change one day. I’m glad you are looking for answers, hope you find what helps you and that you get more input.
 

FrenchKiwi

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This forum isn't a good place for someone dealing with low estrogen. Having said that, personally I found Red Clover more useful than Black Cohosh (I had to find out about it by myself). However, it worked for very few months. Then I had my doctor to prescribe me bioidentical estradiol (transdermal). It worked for several years before my liver could not tolerate it anymore.
How did you know your liver couldn't tolerate it and what are you doing instead?
 

Nicole W.

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After pouring over Peat's articles and this forum, I am still a bit unclear whether a woman can truly have low estrogen and what lab tests can be done to make sure the estrogen level is accurate. I am 51 yo woman, with diagnosed endometriosis in my late teens. Over the years I have always made a conscious effort to watch for estrogens in my environment, in my food, etc. I also use Progesterone regularly (either Progest-E or Progesterone in Vit E from Forefront Health). My saliva hormone tests over the years have shown I have a good level of Progesterone to Estrogen.
3 months post op from a major surgery I started having extreme hot/cold "flashes" that I thought was related to my meds but once off those, I think it is perimenopause. My most recent saliva test is showing almost zero estrogen. I need relief from these flashes because they are so bad I don't sleep at all.
My question is whether I should truly be looking at low estrogen? Everything I've read on here and Peat's articles is saying Progesterone is the way to go but I have already been taking pretty good quantities of progesterone and experimented during these hot flashes with it and I think it does make them worse. I don't want to add estrogen because of all the evils, but IF I am truly low then I do need some. My dr. recommended Black Cohosh. I know there are some herbal remedies, which is the route I'd go--not estrogen directly. Any insight would be awesome!
Thank you.
Did you read Ray’s article on Hot Flashes, Energy and Aging? Your answer may lie there. Hot flashes are often a symptom of low blood sugar. Over night blood sugar can become too low causing adrenaline and cortisol to spike causing a hot flash. Try eating something substantial before bed, something salty/sweet like fruit and cheese or yogurt and honey. Make sure to eat regularly during the day. Try to notice if a pattern exists between hot flashes and hunger.
 

Blossom

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@TAG145, whatever you do on this matter I’d highly recommend that you to get multiple opinions from women and preferably women who have lived it. I mean no disrespect toward men at all in saying that but all the science in the world (and it’s often contradictory) doesn’t measure up to having gone through the change and had first hand experience.
 
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Zsazsa

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How did you know your liver couldn't tolerate it and what are you doing instead?
Dizziness, killing headaches followed by profuse vomiting. This problem came up after starting inositol supplementation, but didn't go away after quitting inositol.

I should also mention that in the first 2 years of perimenopause I used transdermal progesterone, which made me completely apathetic, and then induced a total ovarian failure by strongly opposing the little estrogen I could produce.

Right now I am replacing neither progesterone nor estradiol and am feeling fine without them.

If I could start all over , I would have demanded the doctor at least checked my estradiol and progesterone blood levels (ETA) before starting any replacement therapy.
 
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Dolomite

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Did you read Ray’s article on Hot Flashes, Energy and Aging? Your answer may lie there. Hot flashes are often a symptom of low blood sugar. Over night blood sugar can become too low causing adrenaline and cortisol to spike causing a hot flash. Try eating something substantial before bed, something salty/sweet like fruit and cheese or yogurt and honey. Make sure to eat regularly during the day. Try to notice if a pattern exists between hot flashes and hunger.
I agree with Nicole W. I had hot flashes for longer than I should have and I think it was all due to adrenaline. I used a little progesterone cream after menopause, too, but quit because I was waking up from too much adrenaline. I think the body tries to reach homeostasis and adding too much of one hormone can throw things off. Perhaps you don't need as much progesterone right now.
 
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TAG145

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Thank you for your responses and advice. My thought initially was that I have tissue-bound estrogen like most of us but then because I’ve been pretty diligent in counteracting & avoiding over so many years, maybe it is truly low. I will look into red clover. Right now I have been taking jiogulan and maca as adaptogens, plus boron and rhemannia. I did read that it could be low thyroid and adrenal stress causing hot flashes as well and why I’m trying to support the stress with adaptogens and hormonal balancing supplements. I recently started a new compounded T4/T3 extended release medication which lines up with the timing of the start of all this as well. I have added more fruit, OJ, frequent small meals to keep my blood sugar stable and adrenaline low. I am honestly game to try anything at this point since I am dying to sleep! Thanks again for recommendations.
 

LadyRae

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Thank you for your responses and advice. My thought initially was that I have tissue-bound estrogen like most of us but then because I’ve been pretty diligent in counteracting & avoiding over so many years, maybe it is truly low. I will look into red clover. Right now I have been taking jiogulan and maca as adaptogens, plus boron and rhemannia. I did read that it could be low thyroid and adrenal stress causing hot flashes as well and why I’m trying to support the stress with adaptogens and hormonal balancing supplements. I recently started a new compounded T4/T3 extended release medication which lines up with the timing of the start of all this as well. I have added more fruit, OJ, frequent small meals to keep my blood sugar stable and adrenaline low. I am honestly game to try anything at this point since I am dying to sleep! Thanks again for recommendations.
Update?? 😊
 
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TAG145

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Hello! Updated info related to my post about low estrogen. It did not feel right to me taking something to increase estrogen specifically, so I did take a supplement to “balance” for a little while but I think my new thyroid medicine was ultimately the cause of the hot flashes. The reason I say this is that when the hot flashes started, I had just started a compounded T4/T3 rx at the same dose as the Armour I had been taking. I think it threw my hormones out of whack. I also realized that there is something that my body doesn’t tolerate in Armour Thyroid. Since changing to this compounded rx with only lactose, no other fillers, I feel better than I have ever and had been on Armour 20 years! My new rx was late in the mail so I took Armour and started having palpitations, unsteadiness, anxiousness. Went away when I took my new rx. My dr. Also increased my thyroid med dose. I went back to taking a little progesterone regularly and this keeps me having a menstrual cycle. And, I managed to lose 20 lbs over the last few months, so things have definitely gotten better and more stable. I should also mention I was doing research into the fillers that are used in these thyroid meds to make them slow release and found that they use cellulose and usually it is from pine trees. I am allergic to pine trees. This made me ask my dr to prescribe my meds without cellulose fillers. I also tried taking the meds with cellulase to breakdown cellulose because when taking thyroid meds containing cellulose, a certain % of the med may remain bound so a higher dose may be needed to compensate. When I was no longer having hot flashes, I was experimenting with cellulase enzyme + Armour and I ended up causing hot flashes again! Now that I have the meds that are free of fillers, I dont take cellulase anymore. I e been having a lot of issue with this new pharmacy, so my meds are always late and that is the reason I was experimenting …I have leftover Armour to help tide me over when the rx is late. I’m in the process of working with my dr to change pharmacies.
 

LadyRae

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Hello! Updated info related to my post about low estrogen. It did not feel right to me taking something to increase estrogen specifically, so I did take a supplement to “balance” for a little while but I think my new thyroid medicine was ultimately the cause of the hot flashes. The reason I say this is that when the hot flashes started, I had just started a compounded T4/T3 rx at the same dose as the Armour I had been taking. I think it threw my hormones out of whack. I also realized that there is something that my body doesn’t tolerate in Armour Thyroid. Since changing to this compounded rx with only lactose, no other fillers, I feel better than I have ever and had been on Armour 20 years! My new rx was late in the mail so I took Armour and started having palpitations, unsteadiness, anxiousness. Went away when I took my new rx. My dr. Also increased my thyroid med dose. I went back to taking a little progesterone regularly and this keeps me having a menstrual cycle. And, I managed to lose 20 lbs over the last few months, so things have definitely gotten better and more stable. I should also mention I was doing research into the fillers that are used in these thyroid meds to make them slow release and found that they use cellulose and usually it is from pine trees. I am allergic to pine trees. This made me ask my dr to prescribe my meds without cellulose fillers. I also tried taking the meds with cellulase to breakdown cellulose because when taking thyroid meds containing cellulose, a certain % of the med may remain bound so a higher dose may be needed to compensate. When I was no longer having hot flashes, I was experimenting with cellulase enzyme + Armour and I ended up causing hot flashes again! Now that I have the meds that are free of fillers, I dont take cellulase anymore. I e been having a lot of issue with this new pharmacy, so my meds are always late and that is the reason I was experimenting …I have leftover Armour to help tide me over when the rx is late. I’m in the process of working with my dr to change pharmacies.
Wow! That sounds like progress for sure. Fillers are often dismissed but can obviously be a BIG deal
 
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Hello! Updated info related to my post about low estrogen. It did not feel right to me taking something to increase estrogen specifically, so I did take a supplement to “balance” for a little while but I think my new thyroid medicine was ultimately the cause of the hot flashes. The reason I say this is that when the hot flashes started, I had just started a compounded T4/T3 rx at the same dose as the Armour I had been taking. I think it threw my hormones out of whack. I also realized that there is something that my body doesn’t tolerate in Armour Thyroid. Since changing to this compounded rx with only lactose, no other fillers, I feel better than I have ever and had been on Armour 20 years! My new rx was late in the mail so I took Armour and started having palpitations, unsteadiness, anxiousness. Went away when I took my new rx. My dr. Also increased my thyroid med dose. I went back to taking a little progesterone regularly and this keeps me having a menstrual cycle. And, I managed to lose 20 lbs over the last few months, so things have definitely gotten better and more stable. I should also mention I was doing research into the fillers that are used in these thyroid meds to make them slow release and found that they use cellulose and usually it is from pine trees. I am allergic to pine trees. This made me ask my dr to prescribe my meds without cellulose fillers. I also tried taking the meds with cellulase to breakdown cellulose because when taking thyroid meds containing cellulose, a certain % of the med may remain bound so a higher dose may be needed to compensate. When I was no longer having hot flashes, I was experimenting with cellulase enzyme + Armour and I ended up causing hot flashes again! Now that I have the meds that are free of fillers, I dont take cellulase anymore. I e been having a lot of issue with this new pharmacy, so my meds are always late and that is the reason I was experimenting …I have leftover Armour to help tide me over when the rx is late. I’m in the process of working with my dr to change pharmacies.
This is all such good information, thanks for sharing, and @LadyRae thanks for asking her. I have never heard of cellulose causing allergy, and I am allergic to pine trees as well.
 

facesavant

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Thank you for your responses and advice. My thought initially was that I have tissue-bound estrogen like most of us but then because I’ve been pretty diligent in counteracting & avoiding over so many years, maybe it is truly low. I will look into red clover. Right now I have been taking jiogulan and maca as adaptogens, plus boron and rhemannia. I did read that it could be low thyroid and adrenal stress causing hot flashes as well and why I’m trying to support the stress with adaptogens and hormonal balancing supplements. I recently started a new compounded T4/T3 extended release medication which lines up with the timing of the start of all this as well. I have added more fruit, OJ, frequent small meals to keep my blood sugar stable and adrenaline low. I am honestly game to try anything at this point since I am dying to sleep! Thanks again for recommendations.
Aside from hot flashes did you have any breast pain or fullness?
 
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TAG145

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No, nothing that would normally tell me it is hormonal. Brest pain, tenderness, cramping, etc.
 

kaybb

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Hello! Updated info related to my post about low estrogen. It did not feel right to me taking something to increase estrogen specifically, so I did take a supplement to “balance” for a little while but I think my new thyroid medicine was ultimately the cause of the hot flashes. The reason I say this is that when the hot flashes started, I had just started a compounded T4/T3 rx at the same dose as the Armour I had been taking. I think it threw my hormones out of whack. I also realized that there is something that my body doesn’t tolerate in Armour Thyroid. Since changing to this compounded rx with only lactose, no other fillers, I feel better than I have ever and had been on Armour 20 years! My new rx was late in the mail so I took Armour and started having palpitations, unsteadiness, anxiousness. Went away when I took my new rx. My dr. Also increased my thyroid med dose. I went back to taking a little progesterone regularly and this keeps me having a menstrual cycle. And, I managed to lose 20 lbs over the last few months, so things have definitely gotten better and more stable. I should also mention I was doing research into the fillers that are used in these thyroid meds to make them slow release and found that they use cellulose and usually it is from pine trees. I am allergic to pine trees. This made me ask my dr to prescribe my meds without cellulose fillers. I also tried taking the meds with cellulase to breakdown cellulose because when taking thyroid meds containing cellulose, a certain % of the med may remain bound so a higher dose may be needed to compensate. When I was no longer having hot flashes, I was experimenting with cellulase enzyme + Armour and I ended up causing hot flashes again! Now that I have the meds that are free of fillers, I dont take cellulase anymore. I e been having a lot of issue with this new pharmacy, so my meds are always late and that is the reason I was experimenting …I have leftover Armour to help tide me over when the rx is late. I’m in the process of working with my dr to change pharmacies.
Thanks for update. I’m suffering similarly. Glad you found your answers
 

kimbriel

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I should also mention that in the first 2 years of perimenopause I used transdermal progesterone, which made me completely apathetic, and then induced a total ovarian failure by strongly opposing the little estrogen I could produce.

Right now I am replacing neither progesterone nor estradiol and am feeling fine without them.

If I could start all over , I would have demanded the doctor at least checked my estradiol and progesterone blood levels (ETA) before starting any replacement therapy.
I think this is what recently happened to me. My prolactin shows my tissue storage estrogen is really low (prolactin = 11, which according to Peaty principles is optimal for a woman) and I had been working on clearing estrogen with carrot salad, etc. But taking biomolecular progesterone during the latter 14 days of my cycle (my luteal phase, except I wasn't getting periods, so I'd have to pick the days I wanted to act as my luteal phase. My FSH came back and showed 89.2 (a normal value for a person my age and not in menopause is 8).

Does anyone know if this is permanent? I just have 10 more days to take progesterone drops this month and then it's my normal 15 day break. Should I stop?

Help!
 
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TAG145

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I know this thread isn't very popular because of the low estrogen conundrum... I found the attached thread really helpful in understanding that for some, low estrogen is a reality. It was hard for me to grasp the fact that there is supposedly not a test to really indicate you are low based on the fact that estrogen can be stored in your tissues.


 

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