Is high-dose Thiamine therapy safe?

Dr. B

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This is what I wrote in another thread about my experience with high doses:
so you got a lot of hair shedding/ why would thiamine cause hair shedding since it should improve CO2 thus improve hair and everythnig?

Thiamine is a chelator for heavy metals and reduces toxicity of high Vitamin A. I've been using thiamine pyrophosphate, because I couldn't stand either HCl or Allithiamine. But in all cases, you have to dose to the half-life, support sulfation pathways, etc. along the lines of Andy Cutler's protocol without the Vit A. I had to stop the B1 for 4 days, then restart at much lower doses and take every 2.5 hours (blood half-life for B1 pyrophosphate), along with low-dose B2. Am now able to take it OK again, gradually increasing, but am probably going to stop at 2-4 mg/day total, which looks like an adequate level for me.

I think a lot of the therapeutic value for allithiamin or high-dose B1-HCl comes from heavy metal detox and effects on Vit A

what issues did you get with thiamine? why not use 500mg thiamine hcl daily, what would be the issues with that?
 

mostlylurking

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You are not the only one that got long headaches or just headaches from special thiamines.
Yeah, I've read that reactions to TTFD are pretty common. Something about being low in glutathione maybe. Elliot Overton did a youtube video on the possible issues. I was left with the understanding that taking thiamine hcl for a while can resolve the problem. But using high dose thiamine hcl worked so well for me that I never felt the need to try TTFD again.
 

sweetpeat

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so you got a lot of hair shedding/ why would thiamine cause hair shedding since it should improve CO2 thus improve hair and everythnig?
I think it was that the thiamine dosage was too high for me and was tanking my iron to nearly the bottom of the range. I've not been able to find a reason why thiamine at high doses would lower iron, but I've read of others on the forum that it happened to. I think @Lokzo was one of the ones who mentioned it. For some people, the iron lowering effect might be a good thing, but it wasn't good for me. I didn't have high iron to begin with.

Yes, thiamine generally should have positive effects. Maybe I increased the dose too fast. I dunno, I'm not willing to experiment with high doses again at this time.
I still take some thiamine, but at much lower dosages. Maybe 20-30mg two or three times a day with food.
 

CreakyJoints

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In a recent email exchange I had with Ray about memory, he referred to 50mg as a "big dose", so I would expect he has reservations about much larger doses. I later asked if he had a preferred form of thiamine, and I presumed HCL would be safe, but he did not reply. Perhaps bearing this in mind, if one is only supplementing it to address deficiency, an even smaller dose might be advisable? Of course one doing this might have different concerns to people looking into it's potential therapeutic use.

It's not an area I've looked into much before he mentioned it, though - I know some proponents advocate 500mg daily, and the 2g a day mentioned earlier in the thread by @mostlylurking sounds absolutely colossal, but if it works, I suppose it works. From looking around online I think it's quite awkward to get supplements that go that low, but one can always purchase a bigger one and re-distribute it into smaller pills.

"[...] I have found that a small amount of triiodothyronine, T3, about 5 mcg, and/or a big dose of thiamine, such as 50 mg., helps with quick memorization."

@mostlylurking , from what you know, is it anything like ascorbic acid in that capacity increases with need? Perhaps there is an equivalent threshold to Cathcart's titration to bowel tolerance...? Like I said, I've never looked into it!
 

mostlylurking

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In a recent email exchange I had with Ray about memory, he referred to 50mg as a "big dose", so I would expect he has reservations about much larger doses. I later asked if he had a preferred form of thiamine, and I presumed HCL would be safe, but he did not reply. Perhaps bearing this in mind, if one is only supplementing it to address deficiency, an even smaller dose might be advisable? Of course one doing this might have different concerns to people looking into it's potential therapeutic use.
I've been following Ray Peat and working hard to follow his suggestions/advice for almost 7 years. I took about 50mg of thiamine daily all that time with no problem until August of 2020. I got slammed by taking some Bactrim antibiotic for a UTI and got really really sick, with lactic acidosis. It just got worse and worse and I thought I was dying. I tried about 250mg of thiamine (suggested by Haidut on a Danny Roddy show) and within 45 minutes my temperature went up a full degree (to normal) and all my pain disappeared. So I started researching and found this article: Bactrim: An Anti-Folate, Anti-Thiamine, Potassium Altering Drug - Hormones Matter. This is what started my investigation of thiamine and my high dosing of it. I don't think I needed high dose thiamine before taking the Bactrim; now I need the high dose.

I have a memory (faulty?) of Ray saying that he didn't like the synthetics. My 84 year old endocrinologist said that thiamine hcl is considered a safe supplement and he's OK with my high dosing it. He's aware of my difficulty because the Bactrim fiasco also blocked my ability to use T3 so it went sky high on the blood tests and had to be lowered twice. I've evened out now and am OK on the lower thyroid dose. I suspect the high thiamine will be required for a long time though. I'm 71 with a long history of gut disbiosis; there's a connection between having gut disbiosis and winding up with Parkinson's Disease. Thiamine corrects both.
It's not an area I've looked into much before he mentioned it, though - I know some proponents advocate 500mg daily, and the 2g a day mentioned earlier in the thread by @mostlylurking sounds absolutely colossal, but if it works, I suppose it works. From looking around online I think it's quite awkward to get supplements that go that low, but one can always purchase a bigger one and re-distribute it into smaller pills.
I stair stepped the dose of thiamine hcl up over a period of 3 months because each higher dose would work for maybe a week and then not work as well so I'd take more. I went ahead and tried the 2 grams because that dose is what Dr. Costantini found to work for his Parkinson's Disease patients (I had developed a hand tremor around October). After two days on that 2 gram/day dose, my digestive tract normalized (a huge deal). I've been on that dose since February 1, 2021. A lot of my various long term maladies have disappeared now and I'm doing very well on the high dose thiamine. Dr. Costantini's website: HDT Therapy

I'm using the pure powder thiamine hcl from bulksupplements.com. I don't think the high dose thiamine is for everybody but I had a serious problem and I truly believe it saved my life.
@mostlylurking , from what you know, is it anything like ascorbic acid in that capacity increases with need? Perhaps there is an equivalent threshold to Cathcart's titration to bowel tolerance...? Like I said, I've never looked into it!
I've read that long term deficiencies and also functional blockages can require flooding the body with thiamine to get the body chemistry to straighten out and it takes some time to normalize. I think I've had a very long term thiamine deficiency and the Bactrim event put me down for the count. I'm in pretty good shape now and have no plans to stop the high dose thiamine because I feel so much better on it. I see my endocrinologist every 6 months and have blood tests so I'm being watched.
 

Blossom

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I've been following Ray Peat and working hard to follow his suggestions/advice for almost 7 years. I took about 50mg of thiamine daily all that time with no problem until August of 2020. I got slammed by taking some Bactrim antibiotic for a UTI and got really really sick, with lactic acidosis. It just got worse and worse and I thought I was dying. I tried about 250mg of thiamine (suggested by Haidut on a Danny Roddy show) and within 45 minutes my temperature went up a full degree (to normal) and all my pain disappeared. So I started researching and found this article: Bactrim: An Anti-Folate, Anti-Thiamine, Potassium Altering Drug - Hormones Matter. This is what started my investigation of thiamine and my high dosing of it. I don't think I needed high dose thiamine before taking the Bactrim; now I need the high dose.

I have a memory (faulty?) of Ray saying that he didn't like the synthetics. My 84 year old endocrinologist said that thiamine hcl is considered a safe supplement and he's OK with my high dosing it. He's aware of my difficulty because the Bactrim fiasco also blocked my ability to use T3 so it went sky high on the blood tests and had to be lowered twice. I've evened out now and am OK on the lower thyroid dose. I suspect the high thiamine will be required for a long time though. I'm 71 with a long history of gut disbiosis; there's a connection between having gut disbiosis and winding up with Parkinson's Disease. Thiamine corrects both.

I stair stepped the dose of thiamine hcl up over a period of 3 months because each higher dose would work for maybe a week and then not work as well so I'd take more. I went ahead and tried the 2 grams because that dose is what Dr. Costantini found to work for his Parkinson's Disease patients (I had developed a hand tremor around October). After two days on that 2 gram/day dose, my digestive tract normalized (a huge deal). I've been on that dose since February 1, 2021. A lot of my various long term maladies have disappeared now and I'm doing very well on the high dose thiamine. Dr. Costantini's website: HDT Therapy

I'm using the pure powder thiamine hcl from bulksupplements.com. I don't think the high dose thiamine is for everybody but I had a serious problem and I truly believe it saved my life.

I've read that long term deficiencies and also functional blockages can require flooding the body with thiamine to get the body chemistry to straighten out and it takes some time to normalize. I think I've had a very long term thiamine deficiency and the Bactrim event put me down for the count. I'm in pretty good shape now and have no plans to stop the high dose thiamine because I feel so much better on it. I see my endocrinologist every 6 months and have blood tests so I'm being watched.
That’s wonderful. Thanks for telling your story.
 
B

Braveheart

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I've been following Ray Peat and working hard to follow his suggestions/advice for almost 7 years. I took about 50mg of thiamine daily all that time with no problem until August of 2020. I got slammed by taking some Bactrim antibiotic for a UTI and got really really sick, with lactic acidosis. It just got worse and worse and I thought I was dying. I tried about 250mg of thiamine (suggested by Haidut on a Danny Roddy show) and within 45 minutes my temperature went up a full degree (to normal) and all my pain disappeared. So I started researching and found this article: Bactrim: An Anti-Folate, Anti-Thiamine, Potassium Altering Drug - Hormones Matter. This is what started my investigation of thiamine and my high dosing of it. I don't think I needed high dose thiamine before taking the Bactrim; now I need the high dose.

I have a memory (faulty?) of Ray saying that he didn't like the synthetics. My 84 year old endocrinologist said that thiamine hcl is considered a safe supplement and he's OK with my high dosing it. He's aware of my difficulty because the Bactrim fiasco also blocked my ability to use T3 so it went sky high on the blood tests and had to be lowered twice. I've evened out now and am OK on the lower thyroid dose. I suspect the high thiamine will be required for a long time though. I'm 71 with a long history of gut disbiosis; there's a connection between having gut disbiosis and winding up with Parkinson's Disease. Thiamine corrects both.

I stair stepped the dose of thiamine hcl up over a period of 3 months because each higher dose would work for maybe a week and then not work as well so I'd take more. I went ahead and tried the 2 grams because that dose is what Dr. Costantini found to work for his Parkinson's Disease patients (I had developed a hand tremor around October). After two days on that 2 gram/day dose, my digestive tract normalized (a huge deal). I've been on that dose since February 1, 2021. A lot of my various long term maladies have disappeared now and I'm doing very well on the high dose thiamine. Dr. Costantini's website: HDT Therapy

I'm using the pure powder thiamine hcl from bulksupplements.com. I don't think the high dose thiamine is for everybody but I had a serious problem and I truly believe it saved my life.

I've read that long term deficiencies and also functional blockages can require flooding the body with thiamine to get the body chemistry to straighten out and it takes some time to normalize. I think I've had a very long term thiamine deficiency and the Bactrim event put me down for the count. I'm in pretty good shape now and have no plans to stop the high dose thiamine because I feel so much better on it. I see my endocrinologist every 6 months and have blood tests so I'm being watched.
Thank you for your comments...
 

AncestralJoy

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@mostlylurking wow that is fascinating and wonderful that it has made such a huge diffference. I’m just starting down this rabbit hole and thiamine hcl seems to be helping with cognitive and digestive but it’s early days
When you say your digestion normalised what do you mean? No bloating or discomfort or going regularly?
Do you have guidance from your doc or endocrinologist in terms of dose or are you working that out for yourself with helpful info like dr Constantinis and seeing how it feels?
Thanks again for all the info you’ve shared!
 

CreakyJoints

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I've been following Ray Peat and working hard to follow his suggestions/advice for almost 7 years. I took about 50mg of thiamine daily all that time with no problem until August of 2020. I got slammed by taking some Bactrim antibiotic for a UTI and got really really sick, with lactic acidosis. It just got worse and worse and I thought I was dying. I tried about 250mg of thiamine (suggested by Haidut on a Danny Roddy show) and within 45 minutes my temperature went up a full degree (to normal) and all my pain disappeared. So I started researching and found this article: Bactrim: An Anti-Folate, Anti-Thiamine, Potassium Altering Drug - Hormones Matter. This is what started my investigation of thiamine and my high dosing of it. I don't think I needed high dose thiamine before taking the Bactrim; now I need the high dose.

I have a memory (faulty?) of Ray saying that he didn't like the synthetics. My 84 year old endocrinologist said that thiamine hcl is considered a safe supplement and he's OK with my high dosing it. He's aware of my difficulty because the Bactrim fiasco also blocked my ability to use T3 so it went sky high on the blood tests and had to be lowered twice. I've evened out now and am OK on the lower thyroid dose. I suspect the high thiamine will be required for a long time though. I'm 71 with a long history of gut disbiosis; there's a connection between having gut disbiosis and winding up with Parkinson's Disease. Thiamine corrects both.

I stair stepped the dose of thiamine hcl up over a period of 3 months because each higher dose would work for maybe a week and then not work as well so I'd take more. I went ahead and tried the 2 grams because that dose is what Dr. Costantini found to work for his Parkinson's Disease patients (I had developed a hand tremor around October). After two days on that 2 gram/day dose, my digestive tract normalized (a huge deal). I've been on that dose since February 1, 2021. A lot of my various long term maladies have disappeared now and I'm doing very well on the high dose thiamine. Dr. Costantini's website: HDT Therapy

I'm using the pure powder thiamine hcl from bulksupplements.com. I don't think the high dose thiamine is for everybody but I had a serious problem and I truly believe it saved my life.

I've read that long term deficiencies and also functional blockages can require flooding the body with thiamine to get the body chemistry to straighten out and it takes some time to normalize. I think I've had a very long term thiamine deficiency and the Bactrim event put me down for the count. I'm in pretty good shape now and have no plans to stop the high dose thiamine because I feel so much better on it. I see my endocrinologist every 6 months and have blood tests so I'm being watched.

Thank you so much for the answer, this is fascinating and quite inspiring to hear someone see such a notable change!

If you uncover anything new about long term deficiencies requiring flooding, or have any studies to hand, I'd love to see them too. Congratulations on your improvements, I hope they continue! I'll have a look at Dr. Costantini's stuff in the meantime, probably a lot of my questions will be answered there, or at least I'll find some clues.

Wishing you all the best in your continued recovery!
 

InChristAlone

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Reading this article now and am blown away by some of the research on this website. I think I've been thiamine deficient ever since starting the Peat diet full of sugar! And I'm going to give it to my kids who also downed soda like it was water at times. I knew of the importance but just figured we'd gotten 'enough' everyday. Clearly NOT!
Energy Deficiency and ASD - Hormones Matter
 

mostlylurking

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@mostlylurking wow that is fascinating and wonderful that it has made such a huge diffference. I’m just starting down this rabbit hole and thiamine hcl seems to be helping with cognitive and digestive but it’s early days
When you say your digestion normalised what do you mean? No bloating or discomfort or going regularly?
Do you have guidance from your doc or endocrinologist in terms of dose or are you working that out for yourself with helpful info like dr Constantinis and seeing how it feels?
Thanks again for all the info you’ve shared!
I've had gut disbiosis off & on for at least 30 years. SIBO, leaky gut, lots of allergies. After the Bactrim, things just stopped moving very well and I pooped little squiggles for months. I interpreted this to mean my colon was swollen but who knows. I emailed Dr. Peat and he recommended cooked mushrooms (instead of carrot salad) and magnesium and I think thiamine (if I'm remembering this right). Magnesium and thiamine heal the gut. So I ate LOTS of mushrooms daily and things did not get better. It stayed that way for about 5 months. When I finally worked my way up to the 2 grams/day of thiamine, after two days, I pooped massive massive well formed normal poops, two of them about an hour apart. I could feel the peristalsis working. Then I felt so much better and had so much more energy! A great weight had been lifted.... Since that time, I'm pooping usually twice a day, normal well formed poops. Like clockwork. No constipation, no diarrhea. I was craving some red meat so I ate a steak, maybe two in a week. I could digest it without issue. I haven't been able to eat meat for maybe 10 years because of low stomach acid. I ate the red meat for a month or so and then I didn't crave red meat anymore so I stopped eating it.

Another digestive tract issue that cleared up: For the last 20+ years I had a terrible time with food getting stuck in my esophagus. I would have to go to the bathroom and yak it back up and then try to eat again. This was so severe that sometimes in the morning it would happen with a sip of water. That problem has just gone away.

I worked out the thiamine hcl dose by myself with the help of Dr. Costantini's information on his site. I had packed on 25 pounds in September 2020 (25 pounds in about 5 weeks, eating the same diet I had been eating for 6 years) so according to my weight I was supposed to take 2.5grams/day, not 2grams. So I tried the 2.5 grams once. That night I got shooting electrical pains in my thighs when I went to bed. Shooting electrical leg pains is mentioned somewhere (Costantini's site?) as being a sign of having taken too much thiamine so I lowered the dose back to 2 grams and stuck with that.
 

mostlylurking

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Reading this article now and am blown away by some of the research on this website. I think I've been thiamine deficient ever since starting the Peat diet full of sugar! And I'm going to give it to my kids who also downed soda like it was water at times. I knew of the importance but just figured we'd gotten 'enough' everyday. Clearly NOT!
Energy Deficiency and ASD - Hormones Matter
I found their thiamine articles extremely helpful. The hormone articles, not so much. Too much reliance on the "new" research paid for by the estrogen industry. If you've got a good foundational Peaty background to fall back on, the articles can be not quite so dangerous to read. They are well meaning and well written, just a little too pro-estrogen for my liking.

Since I've followed a Peaty diet for almost 7 years, I've got a little different outlook on the Sugar Bad position taken on HormonesMatter. I do watch my sugar intake closely but I haven't stopped drinking the orange juice and I still put a little maple syrup in my milk. My theory is that as long as you aren't deficient in thiamine you should be able to actually benefit from some sweet stuff (lowers stress hormones! increases carbon dioxide!!). But if you are deficient in thiamine or have a functional blockage in thiamine, the sweet stuff makes it a LOT worse and will make you feel awful. I stopped drinking coffee because it blocks thiamine and makes me feel horrible.
 

mostlylurking

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Reading this article now and am blown away by some of the research on this website. I think I've been thiamine deficient ever since starting the Peat diet full of sugar! And I'm going to give it to my kids who also downed soda like it was water at times. I knew of the importance but just figured we'd gotten 'enough' everyday. Clearly NOT!
Energy Deficiency and ASD - Hormones Matter
Ray Peat has said that if you add sugar to your diet you will need to supplement with some thiamine. There are high sugar fans on the forum but high sugar isn't really what Ray recommends. He recommends orange juice which has lots of redeeming things about it. I never stopped drinking the orange juice.
 

AncestralJoy

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I've had gut disbiosis off & on for at least 30 years. SIBO, leaky gut, lots of allergies. After the Bactrim, things just stopped moving very well and I pooped little squiggles for months. I interpreted this to mean my colon was swollen but who knows. I emailed Dr. Peat and he recommended cooked mushrooms (instead of carrot salad) and magnesium and I think thiamine (if I'm remembering this right). Magnesium and thiamine heal the gut. So I ate LOTS of mushrooms daily and things did not get better. It stayed that way for about 5 months. When I finally worked my way up to the 2 grams/day of thiamine, after two days, I pooped massive massive well formed normal poops, two of them about an hour apart. I could feel the peristalsis working. Then I felt so much better and had so much more energy! A great weight had been lifted.... Since that time, I'm pooping usually twice a day, normal well formed poops. Like clockwork. No constipation, no diarrhea. I was craving some red meat so I ate a steak, maybe two in a week. I could digest it without issue. I haven't been able to eat meat for maybe 10 years because of low stomach acid. I ate the red meat for a month or so and then I didn't crave red meat anymore so I stopped eating it.

Another digestive tract issue that cleared up: For the last 20+ years I had a terrible time with food getting stuck in my esophagus. I would have to go to the bathroom and yak it back up and then try to eat again. This was so severe that sometimes in the morning it would happen with a sip of water. That problem has just gone away.

I worked out the thiamine hcl dose by myself with the help of Dr. Costantini's information on his site. I had packed on 25 pounds in September 2020 (25 pounds in about 5 weeks, eating the same diet I had been eating for 6 years) so according to my weight I was supposed to take 2.5grams/day, not 2grams. So I tried the 2.5 grams once. That night I got shooting electrical pains in my thighs when I went to bed. Shooting electrical leg pains is mentioned somewhere (Costantini's site?) as being a sign of having taken too much thiamine so I lowered the dose back to 2 grams and stuck with that.
That’s fantastic to hear! Always get excited about good digestion, I get a white tongue from milk and have some disbiosis but not as bad as you described
Interesting about the leg pains. I need to look more into the signs like that to watch out for

Thiamine is very interesting to me because it seems There may be a link there in regards to how some people swear the carbs from peating mess them up or sugar itself makes them worse etc etc I really wonder if thiamine status may often play a role in how well someone does when exploring peaty eating ideas.
 

AncestralJoy

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Interesting that peat has said that about thiamine And sugar intake, this last month is the first I’ve really heard of it in the year I’ve been listening to interviews and reading things,”. Seems a pretty important piece of the puzzle.
Great that it’s getting some air time I hope it finds and helps thepeople who need it!
 

mostlylurking

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That’s fantastic to hear! Always get excited about good digestion, I get a white tongue from milk and have some disbiosis but not as bad as you described
Interesting about the leg pains. I need to look more into the signs like that to watch out for

Thiamine is very interesting to me because it seems There may be a link there in regards to how some people swear the carbs from peating mess them up or sugar itself makes them worse etc etc I really wonder if thiamine status may often play a role in how well someone does when exploring peaty eating ideas.
Yep. I think you nailed it. Ray has said that if you consume sugar you will need to supplement with some thiamine.

Here's some Peat quotes about thiamine: Ray Peat On Vitamin B1 - Thiamine
 

InChristAlone

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I found their thiamine articles extremely helpful. The hormone articles, not so much. Too much reliance on the "new" research paid for by the estrogen industry. If you've got a good foundational Peaty background to fall back on, the articles can be not quite so dangerous to read. They are well meaning and well written, just a little too pro-estrogen for my liking.

Since I've followed a Peaty diet for almost 7 years, I've got a little different outlook on the Sugar Bad position taken on HormonesMatter. I do watch my sugar intake closely but I haven't stopped drinking the orange juice and I still put a little maple syrup in my milk. My theory is that as long as you aren't deficient in thiamine you should be able to actually benefit from some sweet stuff (lowers stress hormones! increases carbon dioxide!!). But if you are deficient in thiamine or have a functional blockage in thiamine, the sweet stuff makes it a LOT worse and will make you feel awful. I stopped drinking coffee because it blocks thiamine and makes me feel horrible.
Yeah I will be able to suss out the estrogen stuff and I did notice the sugar is bad slant. I really wish I had kept up on the thiamine way back yrs ago when I knew I'd need more of it consuming so much sugar. My son developed adhd and was drinking 5 cans of soda a day at times. We finally got him off it and he's doing a lot better. I also stopped drinking coffee with 1/4 cup of sugar! Plus no more coke. I am doing better, but have a ways to go to get back to what I'd say is healthy energy levels without that feeling like I might die if I do too much exercise. Panic attacks were a huge issue for yrs too. Thankfully only get one here and there now due to known circumstances. Anyway thanks for sharing your experience with it here it's very helpful.
 

mostlylurking

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Interesting that peat has said that about thiamine And sugar intake, this last month is the first I’ve really heard of it in the year I’ve been listening to interviews and reading things,”. Seems a pretty important piece of the puzzle.
Great that it’s getting some air time I hope it finds and helps thepeople who need it!
It's a very important piece of the puzzle for people that have any functional blockage of thiamine. I think there's a lot of people out there with that problem. Heavy metals block thiamine. The older you get, the more heavy metals you have accumulated. Old people have more symptoms that point to a thiamine problem.
 

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