Is Fiber Really All That Bad?

[yerrag]

Hi! I'm a new member and I've been trying to read a lot of the topics here. But mostly, I've been reading up on Ray Peat's articles, and there is a long ways to go to assimilate the ideas. For the most part, is has been enlightening reading, even if some ideas are very much counter-cultural. Counter-cultural is not something I would walk away from though. What I find hard to digest are some ideas that run counter to my experience. Granted, that experience has been shaped by what I perceive to be correct, from what I have read that is now considered mainstream. While many ideas that are mainstream have been found to be incoherent and full of holes, there are some ideas that were once on the fringe and have over time become mainstream as our understanding has evolved.

In a sense, I have long abandoned the concept of being guided by a guru, where I check in my ability to reason in exchange for accepting sage wisdom in the hands of experts. Some time ago, I decided to experiment on myself and stopped the use of all PUFAs, and instead replaced them with saturated fats, from my choice of cooking oil to what I eat and what I take in for supplements, centering on coconut oil, milk fats, and animal fats. What initiated it was listening to Prof. Brain Peskin on Kim Greenhouse's Rainmaking site, and it spurred me to think. It didn't take long for me to reason out that I didn't need fish oils and ground flaxseed oils. I ditched them when I thought how civilizations in mountainous regions in the tropics could have survived without any access to seed oils from the cold regions, and that fish consumed would usually be cooked, and whatever EFAs in the fish would already be oxidized. It was refreshing to stumble upon Ray Peat's work and see that I am in agreement with him on his conclusions regarding PUFAs.

But when Ray is saying something that I don't agree with, I have to sit back and re-examine by belief system. Yes, I call it that. As much as I want to be rational and scientific (without big business and its big massaging of data), I can't help but cling to my belief system, which is based on which study I consider acceptable and which isn't.

I have been eating sprouted beans for the past four years, not solely, but in order to have variety together with the meats, grains, and vegetables I eat. With much focus on nutrition, and less on exercises, I've found myself feeling more energetic, my mind being clearer, my well-being not being affected by mood swings, with a certain feeling of calm, yet being more perceptive in being able to not only observe what I see, but what I don't see. I have become less much less susceptible to allergies, having less colds and coughs, and my immunity as defined by sick times have improved. However, I have one condition that beats being solved. I have a very high blood pressure, consistently 180/120, yet I do not have headaches. I am again on an experiment, as I'm not taking any prescription drugs.

Sorry for that long introduction. I wanted you to understand where I'm coming from. I really cannot see how beans are to be avoided. I would really like to know more why beans are on the "avoid" list. I can understand why soybeans are because of the phytoestrogens in it. But I don't understand why all beans are to be avoided, as if fiber is a bad thing. What is so bad about fermentative bacteria being in our large intestines, aiding our digestion, and fibers providing food (prebiotics) for these fermentative bacteria? Isn't there some kind of beneficial symbiotic relationship between us and these bacteria?

From what I've read so far, there seems to be a denial of a balance where bacteria plays a large role in our health. I even read more about the benefit of antibiotics rather than the beneficial role of bacteria in helping us with our immunity and survival. At the back of my mind, this must be a case of swinging the pendulum to the other side in order to find an equilibrium. The equilibrium however, is to be determined, not be wholesome acceptance of Ray Peats' ideas, but my a PhD-like inquisitive approach to one's own health. One has to understand the nuances, the subtleties, and the gotcha'sv- and find deliverance using one's faculties of reason.

 

[Brian]

I doubt that fiber or the lack of it in a diet is the root of good or poor health. In my opinion its just compensating for bad digestion and poor gut barrier. A very robust digestion, with good bile flow, gastric acid release, and fast bowel transit doesn't really allow for much fermentation even if you consume significant amount of fiber or starch, so I also don't think gut bacteria are very important. I eat a significant amount of fiber, because I like the texture of those foods, but I don't think it contributes much to my health. I've tried both higher and very low fiber and don't think its a major factor in my health either way.

Other lifestyle and diet factors that increase dopamine and decrease cortisol and brain serotonin seem to matter much more to me. I doubt that higher gut serotonin is an issue if your gut barrier is strong.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Peat likes tropical fruit fiber, raw carrot fiber, cooked bamboo shoot fiber, cooked mushroom fiber, and he sometimes eats cooked small turnip fiber. He doesn't eat cooked greens fiber but has recommended cooked greens for some people.

 

[yerrag]

In going over Serotonin: Effects in disease, aging and inflammation , I quote the following statement:

"One of the factors promoting excess cortisol production is intestinal irritation, causing absorption of endotoxin and serotonin. Fermentable fibers (including pectins and fructooligosaccharides) support the formation of bacterial toxins, and can cause animals to become anxious and aggressive. Fed to horses, some types of fiber increase the amount of serotonin circulating in the blood. Grains, beans, and other seeds contain fermentable fibers that can promote intestinal irritation."

I should probably ask what makes a fiber fermentable. And then find out what makes grains, beans, and seeds contain fibers that are fermentable. I'd also like to ask whether sprouting beans or germinating seeds and grains would make them more suitable for consumption. I sprout beans because water deactivates anti-enzymes, which are not conducive to digestion, but I do not know if doing so also renders the fibers unfermentable. I would appreciate if someone can clarify the idea of fibers being fermentable.

 

[yerrag]

I doubt that fiber or the lack of it in a diet is the root of good or poor health. In my opinion its just compensating for bad digestion and poor gut barrier. A very robust digestion, with good bile flow, gastric acid release, and fast bowel transit doesn't really allow for much fermentation even if you consume significant amount of fiber or starch, so I also don't think gut bacteria are very important. I eat a significant amount of fiber, because I like the texture of those foods, but I don't think it contributes much to my health. I've tried both higher and very low fiber and don't think its a major factor in my health either way.

Other lifestyle and diet factors that increase dopamine and decrease cortisol and brain serotonin seem to matter much more to me. I doubt that higher gut serotonin is an issue if your gut barrier is strong.

Come to think of it, you make a good point. Fermentation occurs anaerobically, and it doesn't happen much at all when there is good transit such that not much matter accumulates in the large intestine. But gut bacteria has other purposes. It is still helps makes our gut healthy. A healthy gut, with the diversity of bacteria that forms our microbiome, gives us immunity against a host of diseases. And if the presence of fibers help the microbiome, I'm all for it.

It's interesting though that Ray would say that fermentable fibers could be bad, as there are always some caveats and exceptions, and this instance is no different. I would be interested in knowing in what way fermentable fibers can be bad.

 

[Ukall]

Sometimes I wonder this also... I mean there are people who buy fiber to ingest, literally.
For example, why would a person buy Psyllium (which is, for what I understand, a lot of fiber) and ingest it with water?
@tca300 I read somewhere that you take some Psyllium. If it is not asking too much, could you explain why do take it on a daily basis?

Also the fact people claim that there is some types of fiber that feed good bacteria. Seriously, good and bad bacteria, is there such a thing?

Have you ever read this though?
Ch 1. Fiber Carnage

Also this:
Fiber - Diagnosis:Diet

"The fiber deficit-diverticulosis theory should also be challenged…we often choose to believe a lie, as a lie repeated often enough by enough people becomes accepted as the truth. We urge clinicians to keep an open mind. Myths about fiber must be debunked and truth installed.”
​

gut barrier is strong

And to make it strong, we have to ingest fiber?
This is something I never understood...

 

[yerrag]

Peat likes tropical fruit fiber, raw carrot fiber, cooked bamboo shoot fiber, cooked mushroom fiber, and he sometimes eats cooked small turnip fiber. He doesn't eat cooked greens fiber but has recommended cooked greens for some people.

The article "Serotonin: Effects in disease, aging and inflammation" mentions eating fibrous foods such raw carrots and bamboo shoots for their antibacterial effects, and avoiding fruits such as bananas, pineapple, and tomatoes, as these have enough serotonin to upset susceptible people.

Off-topic but slightly tangential, I'm thinking about my eldest sister, who continues to struggle with candidiasis, and wonder if fermentable fibers play a role in her endless suffering with candida.

 

[What-a-Riot]

I assume the idea of good and bad bacteria and all that is like the idea of not killing spiders in the house because they keep other bugs from taking up residence and multiplying

 

[Westside PUFAs]

The article "Serotonin: Effects in disease, aging and inflammation" mentions eating fibrous foods such raw carrots and bamboo shoots for their antibacterial effects, and avoiding fruits such as bananas, pineapple, and tomatoes, as these have enough serotonin to upset susceptible people.

Off-topic but slightly tangential, I'm thinking about my eldest sister, who continues to struggle with candidiasis, and wonder if fermentable fibers play a role in her endless suffering with candida.

I don't know the serotonin content of these:

“Some of Peat’s favored fruits: Orange, cherimoya, longan, lychee, grapes, pawpaw, sapote, plums, prunes, tangerines, dates, cherries, well ripened watermelons, and apple sauce. - instagram.com/p/yU69QBBGqO/

 

[yerrag]

Also the fact people claim that there is some types of fiber that feed good bacteria. Seriously, good and bad bacteria, is there such a thing?

I think of balance, where balance is when the overall effect of the interaction between all bacteria is conducive to the continuation and propagation of the constituents of the ecosystem. In the case where bad bacteria is dominant in an anaerobic system, for example, the process of fermentation is replaced by putrefaction. I do not know per se if this actually happens in our stomach, but if it does, it produces more pathogens as well as toxic by-products called endotoxins. These endotoxins, needless to say, upset the workings of the body.

Is it possible that fermentable fibers in and of themselves pose no harm, except when they contribute to putrefactive conditions in the intenstines, of which bacterial endotoxins are the end result?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

No one is immune to not having some amount of endotoxin, regardless of what food they consume. It's a constant feedback loop and the nature of the gut.

 

[James IV]

It's possible a healthy person doesn't NEED to eat fiber at all. Regarding BM's, I've found bowel movement have more to do with sufficient energy intake, than any particular food.
However, If the foods that you enjoy, and make you healthy contain fiber, removing them simply because of thier fiber content, seems counterproductive.

 

[damngoodcoffee]

I've found bowel movement have more to do with sufficient energy intake, than any particular food.

Agree.

 

[Ukall]

I've found bowel movement have more to do with sufficient energy intake, than any particular food.

Hmm, specially fat, right? Usually people advise to eat more fatty foods when they are constipated.
Fatty acids are the most important source of energy for the bowels if I am correct.

 

[keith]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gggMAI&usg=AFQjCNHb3X-_lGxFOV7Xj4TVmkCTMph40g

An article Ray wrote about beans. He doesn't seem to detail his source for the claim that beans and lentils are anti-thyroid here, but I have read elsewheere they are goitrogens, for whatever that is worth. Sprouting them may change that. People seem to respond very differently to fiber, so if you aren't noticing intestinal irritation, and aren't having symptoms of low thyroid, beans may work fine for you. I guess I would just watch for those issues.

I have awful digestive problems with too much fiber, and tend to eat on the very low fiber scale myself, and have no problems moving my bowels. Fiber tends to give me diarrhea and cramping. I have only very rarely ever had any constipation, which I know is different from many other people here, but just wanted to give my two cents. It seems highly variable, but fiber, in and of itself, is absolutely not needed to produce regular bowel movements. It clearly plays some role for some people, and is likely necessary for some people, but I don't think a blanket statement that fiber is necessary is accurate.

For whatever it is worth, I have high blood pressure on a low fiber diet too. Still haven't figured that out, but finally recognizing that I don't need to eat high fiber has been a blessing for me.

 

[keith]

Hmm, specially fat, right? Usually people advise to eat more fatty foods when they are constipated.
Fatty acids are the most important source of energy for the bowels if I am correct.

I eat relatively low fat and relatively low fiber, and no issues for me. Rather complex, but as noted above, my intestinal profile doesn't seem to match most others here. Maybe I'm unique.

 

[Ukall]

Maybe I'm unique.

Everybody is unique, but we are all the same :)

 

[CarbAppreciator]

I tend to think those who ate a lot of fiber as children develop a colon that can deal with fiber, and even needs fiber to function. When they go without fiber... constipation. It might not be possible to change that dynamic as an adult, it would be interesting to here from Peat if he knows of any studies that look at fiber's influence on the structural development of the colon.

 

[keith]

I tend to think those who ate a lot of fiber as children develop a colon that can deal with fiber, and even needs fiber to function. When they go without fiber... constipation. It might not be possible to change that dynamic as an adult, it would be interesting to here from Peat if he knows of any studies that look at fiber's influence on the structural development of the colon.

My mother is very into "health" and fed us lots of fiber when I was a kid; whole grain everything, long before it was popular, so I'm not sure that theory applies to me, although as a young adult I took to a very unhealthy (by any standards) lifestyle that may have destroyed the any healthy gut flora I may have had, but I remember even as a kid, having lots of gas and gurgling all the time, and it never occurred to me then that it was too much fiber (for me).

 

[keith]

Everybody is unique, but we are all the same :)

To paraphrase Orwell, some are more the same than others, though :p