Is DHT The Most Important Hormone For Males?

[skycop00]

Progesterone doesn't have an estrogen or testosterone pathway, so it can't aromatize, but it can decrease both testosterone and estrogen when supplemented too high, which is easy to do. It's probably more ideal to increase endogenous production through high calories, magnesium, zinc, and vitamin A, which will also increase DHT as well.

I'm not saying not to try DHT, but you do need a balance of progesterone to help DHT do its job, and in my opinion the main way to do that is increasing magnesium and zinc.

I see a pathway to T and Estrogen....https://dutchtest.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Steroid_Pathway_Jan2016.pdf

 

[Brian]

I see a pathway to T and Estrogen....https://dutchtest.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Steroid_Pathway_Jan2016.pdf

I saw that too last night. So its probably like most precursors in that stress can direct it towards estrogen, when out of balance with other hormones. Another good reason for males especially to not supplement progesterone unless they have their stress under control and even then only in tiny amounts always in combination with DHEA.

 

[lvysaur]

I think Danny Roddy wrote that DHT was not the cause of hair loss but I think it can really contribute to it...

When he says that, I think he means that it is not the root cause of hair loss, which is correct. But it is necessary for male pattern hair loss to occur. He also thinks it's bad to artificially inhibit DHT, which is true, since it's a helpful reaction to something toxic.

What make you think DHT is a factor to a coarser beard vs. a softer beard?I don't have any hairloss and my beard is always super coarse. Some people who let they beard grow shampoo them and oil them as well...

As for DHT being definitely responsable for hairloss it might be there in response to something else that is definitely responsable for hairloss?
If DHEA raise in period of stress (too much DHEA will be synthesize in estrogen) it might be the starting point?There's also studies that suggest how DHEA might be responsable for prostate cancer, heart disease, etc, but in only high doses as well.

Facial hair is androgen mediated, that's why women don't have it. Women don't get significant hair loss or facial hair even when estrogen dominant.

And yes, I emphasized that while DHT causes hairloss, it is elevated to oppose high levels of estrogen in males. Estrogen and pro-estrogenic stimuli are the actual causes of hair loss.

 

[Nick Ireland]

This is my DHT experience...

Real DHT (andractim) will not make your body hair grow or beard lengthen faster if E2 is under control. I have used T and I did get increased body hair because of the aromatisation. Yet with the E2 suitably lowered by various anti aromatase agents - the hair growth, and acne, stopped. It is E2 that masculinises males.
DHT will make you calmer, confident, and happier. The body seems to notice when levels are too high with a compensatory E2 response. How this happens I am not sure, perhaps a pre testicular feedback loop. DHT in the right dose will actually prime your testis to make T and technically lower aromatase.
I have also found the use of clonidine to be a wonderful compliment to androgen therapy. Often, though not much discussed, the adrenals will be stimulated by androgens in men with existing low endogenous androgen levels. As their androgens lowered over the years, cortisol and adrenalin compensated and eventfully set an uprated level which can be very hard to break. High androgen with high cortisol is a sure recipe for high aromatase expression and it might not be able to break that hard set adrenal sensitivity and over activity. Clonidine, in as little as a week or two can bring it down to normal, healthy levels and let the androgen do it's job properly.
I've found small amounts of Andractim to be much more effective than large doses, say the equivalent of 25mg on the abdomen skin twice a day. DHT is great for skin - it thickens and becomes more elastic, and very quickly too. Libido on DHT is high, yet controlled, unlike the reckless surges caused by estrogen which acts like a stim in the brain. Having a drink (but not a skin full) converts DHT to allopregnenolone in the brain, improving mood and sense of well being. After application I see serum spikes in application at 6 hours, 12 hours and a washout at 2.5 days - these are ironed out by regular use, but I suspect that part of this fluctuation is stimulation of your own DHT.
Word of advice - get your thyroid sorted before considering androgens or you will be up and down like Bill Clinton's shorts. Aim for the 37C and 80 plus pulse. You will find, along the way, NDT thyroid is constantly improving your reception to androgens.

 

[Drareg]

This is my DHT experience...

Real DHT (andractim) will not make your body hair grow or beard lengthen faster if E2 is under control. I have used T and I did get increased body hair because of the aromatisation. Yet with the E2 suitably lowered by various anti aromatase agents - the hair growth, and acne, stopped. It is E2 that masculinises males.
DHT will make you calmer, confident, and happier. The body seems to notice when levels are too high with a compensatory E2 response. How this happens I am not sure, perhaps a pre testicular feedback loop. DHT in the right dose will actually prime your testis to make T and technically lower aromatase.
I have also found the use of clonidine to be a wonderful compliment to androgen therapy. Often, though not much discussed, the adrenals will be stimulated by androgens in men with existing low endogenous androgen levels. As their androgens lowered over the years, cortisol and adrenalin compensated and eventfully set an uprated level which can be very hard to break. High androgen with high cortisol is a sure recipe for high aromatase expression and it might not be able to break that hard set adrenal sensitivity and over activity. Clonidine, in as little as a week or two can bring it down to normal, healthy levels and let the androgen do it's job properly.
I've found small amounts of Andractim to be much more effective than large doses, say the equivalent of 25mg on the abdomen skin twice a day. DHT is great for skin - it thickens and becomes more elastic, and very quickly too. Libido on DHT is high, yet controlled, unlike the reckless surges caused by estrogen which acts like a stim in the brain. Having a drink (but not a skin full) converts DHT to allopregnenolone in the brain, improving mood and sense of well being. After application I see serum spikes in application at 6 hours, 12 hours and a washout at 2.5 days - these are ironed out by regular use, but I suspect that part of this fluctuation is stimulation of your own DHT.
Word of advice - get your thyroid sorted before considering androgens or you will be up and down like Bill Clinton's shorts. Aim for the 37C and 80 plus pulse. You will find, along the way, NDT thyroid is constantly improving your reception to androgens.

Thanks for the report.
Do you mean E2 as in estrogen here? Are you speculating with your theory? It's an interesting angle.

 

[allblues]

Interesting stuff Nick, i've been thinking about this as well.
There's a group of alcoholics i pass by in a park almost everyday, and they all have big beards. Granted that might just be
because they're homeless and don't shave. But i've also observed heavy beer drinkers (non-alcoholics), many of them go down the path of male pattern baldness, increased facial hair and body hair. And of course, usually a nice pot belly to go with it.

Maybe this is why hacking beardgrowing is so hard, it seems to me there is some type of estrogen-aromatase-related feedback
mechanism. Like the body is as you say compensating for an increased estrogen burden by jacking up testosterone production.
Prolactin stimulates 5-alpha reductase. I remember Ray talking about hirsutism, abnormal facial hair growth in women,
and how the hair growth differed depending on prolactin surges vs a high constant prolactin level.

Just some rambling thoughts~

 

[Parsifal]

This is my DHT experience...

Real DHT (andractim) will not make your body hair grow or beard lengthen faster if E2 is under control. I have used T and I did get increased body hair because of the aromatisation. Yet with the E2 suitably lowered by various anti aromatase agents - the hair growth, and acne, stopped. It is E2 that masculinises males.
DHT will make you calmer, confident, and happier. The body seems to notice when levels are too high with a compensatory E2 response. How this happens I am not sure, perhaps a pre testicular feedback loop. DHT in the right dose will actually prime your testis to make T and technically lower aromatase.
I have also found the use of clonidine to be a wonderful compliment to androgen therapy. Often, though not much discussed, the adrenals will be stimulated by androgens in men with existing low endogenous androgen levels. As their androgens lowered over the years, cortisol and adrenalin compensated and eventfully set an uprated level which can be very hard to break. High androgen with high cortisol is a sure recipe for high aromatase expression and it might not be able to break that hard set adrenal sensitivity and over activity. Clonidine, in as little as a week or two can bring it down to normal, healthy levels and let the androgen do it's job properly.
I've found small amounts of Andractim to be much more effective than large doses, say the equivalent of 25mg on the abdomen skin twice a day. DHT is great for skin - it thickens and becomes more elastic, and very quickly too. Libido on DHT is high, yet controlled, unlike the reckless surges caused by estrogen which acts like a stim in the brain. Having a drink (but not a skin full) converts DHT to allopregnenolone in the brain, improving mood and sense of well being. After application I see serum spikes in application at 6 hours, 12 hours and a washout at 2.5 days - these are ironed out by regular use, but I suspect that part of this fluctuation is stimulation of your own DHT.
Word of advice - get your thyroid sorted before considering androgens or you will be up and down like Bill Clinton's shorts. Aim for the 37C and 80 plus pulse. You will find, along the way, NDT thyroid is constantly improving your reception to androgens.

I have a sparse beard and had always symptoms of high estrogens during childhood so not sure about your comment?

 

[Nick Ireland]

Drareg, it's my long experience of experimentation and careful study of all substances used. Sometimes it's useful to have several personal trials to conclude on DHT for example. I've had plenty time to work on it :). Yes E2 is estradiol.

Allblues - thanks for the info on prolactin re Peat. I'd like to read that.
Ray talks about estrogen's masculinising effects in several essays.

Parsifal - what age are you, and what are those symptoms? Did you have serum sex hormone panels done to monitor the relationship between your respective hormone levels? It's the estrogen converted from T that causes the hair growth of puberty in males. Many steroid users report a "second puberty" when using high doses of T esters like cypionate which readily aromatise.

When I tried T therapy some time ago, I was getting some major aromatase conversion despite being lean to start with. My cortisol was lowered somewhat with enough T but not enough to bring into normal levels. I am convinced the cortisol was responsible for the stress signalling that increases aromatase. Lower thyroid will increase stress signalling. Depending on the person involved that will manifest as higher cortisol or adrenalin.

If you look at some of the oral and depot androgens for athletic use, many of them actually stimulate adrenal output, even with aromatase blockers like Arimidex. There is an up regulation in the CNS, which is often reported on the user forums as a variety of symptoms including insomnia.

 

[Drareg]

Drareg, it's my long experience of experimentation and careful study of all substances used. Sometimes it's useful to have several personal trials to conclude on DHT for example. I've had plenty time to work on it :). Yes E2 is estradiol.

Allblues - thanks for the info on prolactin re Peat. I'd like to read that.
Ray talks about estrogen's masculinising effects in several essays.

Parsifal - what age are you, and what are those symptoms? Did you have serum sex hormone panels done to monitor the relationship between your respective hormone levels? It's the estrogen converted from T that causes the hair growth of puberty in males. Many steroid users report a "second puberty" when using high doses of T esters like cypionate which readily aromatise.

When I tried T therapy some time ago, I was getting some major aromatase conversion despite being lean to start with. My cortisol was lowered somewhat with enough T but not enough to bring into normal levels. I am convinced the cortisol was responsible for the stress signalling that increases aromatase. Lower thyroid will increase stress signalling. Depending on the person involved that will manifest as higher cortisol or adrenalin.

If you look at some of the oral and depot androgens for athletic use, many of them actually stimulate adrenal output, even with aromatase blockers like Arimidex. There is an up regulation in the CNS, which is often reported on the user forums as a variety of symptoms including insomnia.

Thanks,it's good to keep this anecdote in the back of anyone's mind trying DHT.

 

[Rand56]

Have any of you guys tried epi-andro/epiandrosterone? My first time trying it and almost 2 weeks in, doing 300 mg's per day. Haven't really noticed much, although maybe I'm not taking enough. Main reason for trying it is to see if it can increase mood, but it hasn't helped so far in that department. Also taking creatine and sorghum syrup. About the only benefit I notice so far is a bit more strength in the gym.

 

[Nick Ireland]

DHT is definitely a mood elevator. I haven't heard of that epi product though.
There is a DHEA based cream called Dermacrine that enjoys some success in the athletic market. I'm assuming the DHEA is much more likely to convert to DHT via the skin route.

I think thyroid has to be the most successful tool in mood elevation - it's use as an effective treatment or add-on in treatment resistant depression is telling.
Think of all the things that go wrong when metabolism heads south. Not all of those are going to reset as quickly as each other after the re establishing of metabolic efficiency. Due to all kinds of feedback loops, some hormones are going to get back into gear faster than others. Each of us is chasing our own unique chemistry in search of that normality we took for granted in our twenties. It is achievable in the long run, but a little coercion with some add-ons like DHT or progesterone can accelerate the process and make it easier to bear.

 

[James_001]

Does anyone know if DHT shuts you down?

 

[Parsifal]

Parsifal - what age are you, and what are those symptoms? Did you have serum sex hormone panels done to monitor the relationship between your respective hormone levels? It's the estrogen converted from T that causes the hair growth of puberty in males. Many steroid users report a "second puberty" when using high doses of T esters like cypionate which readily aromatise.

I'm 26, I had slight gynecomastia during teenager years, autism symptoms, digestive issues, anxiety, quite tall (6'5) and naturally I have quite strong muscles, whereas my parents have normal heights. Hypothyroid symptoms as well and prolactin (always had a lot of dandruff, acne, etc).
My hair are growing very fast and I have a lot of hairs on my body, but still have a sparse beard so find it strange.

 

[Rand56]

DHT is definitely a mood elevator. I haven't heard of that epi product though.
There is a DHEA based cream called Dermacrine that enjoys some success in the athletic market. I'm assuming the DHEA is much more likely to convert to DHT via the skin route.

I think thyroid has to be the most successful tool in mood elevation - it's use as an effective treatment or add-on in treatment resistant depression is telling.
Think of all the things that go wrong when metabolism heads south. Not all of those are going to reset as quickly as each other after the re establishing of metabolic efficiency. Due to all kinds of feedback loops, some hormones are going to get back into gear faster than others. Each of us is chasing our own unique chemistry in search of that normality we took for granted in our twenties. It is achievable in the long run, but a little coercion with some add-ons like DHT or progesterone can accelerate the process and make it easier to bear.

Thanks Nick. I'm actually also taking Pansterone, but only 2 drops per day transdermally. I've trialed DHEA a number of times in the past, and I cannot handle higher doses of it. I believe it goes more to estrogen for me. I'm also giving Tyromax a go again. Tried it before but didn't fare well with it. Might have been a combination of either me taking too much, applying it transdermally, or not getting enough magnesium while taking it. I'm almost about 1.5 weeks in by doing only one drop per day orally. I'm upping my mag intake as well. I'm handling it ok, but it seems its not consistent yet. Some days I feel like it kicks in better than other days. Just a bit of background. 60 year old male, decent muscle mass <lift 4 to 5 days a week in the gym>, but have the high cortisol belly fat. Need to drop about 10-12 lbs of belly fat. Don't have any recent labs, but I'm sure the readings wouldn't be too far off of what they were when I had labs done..........

Total T - 516 ng/dL
Free T - 10.8 pg/m/L
DHT - 56.0 ng/dL
Estradiol - 41.2 pg/mL
DHEA-S - 104.2 ug/dL

My thyroid panel tested out fine too, alteast according to the labs..haha.

 

[Drareg]

Thanks Nick. I'm actually also taking Pansterone, but only 2 drops per day transdermally. I've trialed DHEA a number of times in the past, and I cannot handle higher doses of it. I believe it goes more to estrogen for me. I'm also giving Tyromax a go again. Tried it before but didn't fare well with it. Might have been a combination of either me taking too much, applying it transdermally, or not getting enough magnesium while taking it. I'm almost about 1.5 weeks in by doing only one drop per day orally. I'm upping my mag intake as well. I'm handling it ok, but it seems its not consistent yet. Some days I feel like it kicks in better than other days. Just a bit of background. 60 year old male, decent muscle mass <lift 4 to 5 days a week in the gym>, but have the high cortisol belly fat. Need to drop about 10-12 lbs of belly fat. Don't have any recent labs, but I'm sure the readings wouldn't be too far off of what they were when I had labs done..........

Total T - 516 ng/dL
Free T - 10.8 pg/m/L
DHT - 56.0 ng/dL
Estradiol - 41.2 pg/mL
DHEA-S - 104.2 ug/dL

My thyroid panel tested out fine too, alteast according to the labs..haha.

I think Peat mentioned somewhere if you use aspirin with dhea it will be even less inclined to convert to estrogen.

 

[Nick Ireland]

Rand56

I convinced there is thyroid resistance as well as cortisol resistance. I know what you mean a out the belly fat. The first thing in my experience is to knock down cortisol, which may be hard set in a stress loop. Then allow thyroid and androgens to thin the fat out.
How tired do you feel after the gym?
How many days to recover?
How many sets are you doing in one session and how long?
Do you get spontaneous facial flushing during the day?
How long was your last break from weights?
I'm down to one failure set per part per week and I used to be a four set man. But now I know it is a trade off between stress and metabolism.
Your T is E2 ratio is not brilliant. Getting the E2 down alone would make a big difference. 30:1 is supposed to be a good benchmark. Is excessive training hampering your T production?
I've found really pure vitamin E twice a day to be good at lowering estrogen, lowering cortisol and adrenalin of course, and vitamins K2 wand D3 . For me, 800IU transdermally applied E, oral 4000iu D3 gels and LE Super K x 2 gels. I'm using 25 - 50 mg zinc gluconate.
I have to stress that clonidine seems to be tackling my excessive adrenal output very well. It's allowing other hormonal systems to kick back in and do their job, free of cortisol's awful T and thyroid suppression. Who knows how long cortisol has run rampant in our bodies before it finally creates a physical crisis and/or if we were born with an excessively sensitive stress system which must be corrected for the benefit of a happy, relaxed life?

 

[Nick Ireland]

I'm 26, I had slight gynecomastia during teenager years, autism symptoms, digestive issues, anxiety, quite tall (6'5) and naturally I have quite strong muscles, whereas my parents have normal heights. Hypothyroid symptoms as well and prolactin (always had a lot of dandruff, acne, etc).
My hair are growing very fast and I have a lot of hairs on my body, but still have a sparse beard so find it strange.

The height thing is interesting - excessive E2 pubertal ratios increase height but not width. I've found Retinol as low as 20k iu tanks prolactin, but requires enough thyroid to prevent a compromise in metabolism. Are your hand callouses or palms orange? Any brothers, sisters or cousins? How stress-free was your pre teen childhood? I hope I'm not being too intrusive.

 

[Rand56]

Rand56

I convinced there is thyroid resistance as well as cortisol resistance. I know what you mean a out the belly fat. The first thing in my experience is to knock down cortisol, which may be hard set in a stress loop. Then allow thyroid and androgens to thin the fat out.
How tired do you feel after the gym?
How many days to recover?
How many sets are you doing in one session and how long?
Do you get spontaneous facial flushing during the day?
How long was your last break from weights?
I'm down to one failure set per part per week and I used to be a four set man. But now I know it is a trade off between stress and metabolism.
Your T is E2 ratio is not brilliant. Getting the E2 down alone would make a big difference. 30:1 is supposed to be a good benchmark. Is excessive training hampering your T production?
I've found really pure vitamin E twice a day to be good at lowering estrogen, lowering cortisol and adrenalin of course, and vitamins K2 wand D3 . For me, 800IU transdermally applied E, oral 4000iu D3 gels and LE Super K x 2 gels. I'm using 25 - 50 mg zinc gluconate.
I have to stress that clonidine seems to be tackling my excessive adrenal output very well. It's allowing other hormonal systems to kick back in and do their job, free of cortisol's awful T and thyroid suppression. Who knows how long cortisol has run rampant in our bodies before it finally creates a physical crisis and/or if we were born with an excessively sensitive stress system which must be corrected for the benefit of a happy, relaxed life?

Nick

Should have also said I have dysthymic depression, I did have a bout of MDD but that was many years ago. I don't have high anxiety, just a low-grade that I believe I have become numb to. I'm low dopamine. To answer your questions....

Often I feel a bit more energized after the gym, but then it doesn't take me long to go back to baseline. I stay away from intense cardio cause it makes me feel worse, effecting thyroid no doubt as Peat says.

It doesn't take me that long to recover, hence is why I go to the gym that many days during the week, but I have gone stetches where I've laid off of lifting for a month of two. But usually when get motivated to get back in gym, I stay at it for awhile

I split my weight workouts, chest and bi's during one session, back and tri's during one session, and legs and shoulders during one session. I do 3 sets per each body part with 3 different exercises. I did sense awhile back that I do better with heavier weights and less reps.

I never get any facial flushing.

See above on the breaks.

You might have a good point on possible overtraining effecting T. My issue is, I have no health insurance to keep paying bigger bucks to stay up on doing labs and making comparisons to previous ones done.

I know vitamin E is great as an estrogen antagonist, but I thought I read on here that higher amounts of E can also effect thyroid negatively? I know getting my E down is paramount for me...and dropping this belly fat would go a long way towards accomplishing this.

I'm doing about 5 drops of Thorne K2 a day. At times, but not every time, after I take it I feel some body heat, but its very fleeting and lasts for like 10 seconds and it's gone. I don't know what's up with this..any thoughts? The other day I decided to put 5 drops on my tongue and shortly afterwards, my mood plummeted even worse. I don't know whats up with this either.

Been getting some sun and don't sup with Vit D.

Also use Kirkmans Zinc Sulfate cream but use it sparingly since I love my red meat...I know..not all that peaty.

Edit: Also just to add, I cant handle higher amounts of Vit A. I know Peat points out that you should not have much of it if hypothyroid. Another reason why I think I may be hypo despite my labs saying everything tested out fine. Also cannot handle higher amounts of niacinamide. I can't even handle 50 mg's of it!! Makes me even more lethargic and plummets my mood even worse.

 

[marsaday]

With depression it always points to low thyroid. I would look into using a little T4 and see how it went on. Thyroid will also raise testosterone and other hormones as it is the conductor in the orchestra.

I am a thyroid patient and use T4 only. A lot of people like to use T3 to boost metabolism, but i find T4 works the best for me. I convert very well.

Another thing i would recommend is using ray peats progesterone product - ProgestE. It has been really life changing for me. It has really improved how the thyroid function works. I was taking 1 drop (3mg) per day, but have recently increased. The progesterone balances up cortisol. So ups it if too low or lowers it if too high. I think it does this by altering the ratio of DHEA to cortisol.

Thought i would post on here to ask Nick a few questions about the progesterone if thats ok.

I started to use the progestE in april 2015. At the time i used 2 drops per day. After a month i had to have a blood test for some bits and bobs and testosterone came in much higher. It had increased by 21%.

Life really has improved using the progesterone, but recently i have run into some issues. I had been using just 1 drop of the progesterone for most of this year as well. I wasn't sure if the issues were thyroid related so i had been adjusting the T4 doses. Still wasn't getting anywhere, so the other week i decided to see what a bit more progesterone felt like. I am now taking 3 drops per day and my health has fully restored. I feel balanced again, normal mood, and normal energy.

I have been wondering what has happened here and it may be related to a change in my thyroid/adrenal match up. This year i have also increased my T4 dose from 125 per day to 137.5 and then 150 per day. I always do dose changes slowly and so this has taken place over about 6 months.

So has the higher T4 level placed higher demands for more cortisol ? Was this the reason why i have felt not so good recently, but after taking more progesterone all is ok again ?

Do you know if only having one working testicle affects progesterone production ? I have both testicles, but i think one doesn't work as it is very small (undescended testicle so op aged 9).

 

[Rand56]

I think Peat mentioned somewhere if you use aspirin with dhea it will be even less inclined to convert to estrogen.

Thanks for the tip. I tried aspirin awhile back, but never got up to the gram + doses like I know some have done on here. IIRC I don't think I was doing the DHEA while doing aspirin. Let me ask a question if you or anyone else knows. In another thread, someone mentioned that they dump some aspirin in an Epsom salt bath along with some urea. I don't have any urea but recently I've taken a couple of Epsom salt baths and I dumped some aspirin in too. I feel and look extra bloated. I've taken Epsom salt baths before and don't get the bloat. I don't believe the extra bloat is food related. Can higher dose aspirin, assuming enough of it absorbed, cause extra fluid retention?