Is Bag Breathing Dangerous? Study Says Sleeping With Head Covered Can Lead To Alzheimers/Dementia

[x-ray peat]

How did they isolate the confounding variables by simply stating they conducted the study in an office-like setting?

By holding all other variables constant across experiments. This is a standard way to remove the effects of confounding variables.

Nothing causative is established. Nothing remotely probable. What studies do you refer to? I still don't see anything resembling making your case.

I didnt say causality was established but rather that these studies are gradually making the case. This may be helpful.
Hill's Criteria for Causality

1. Strength (effect size): A small association does not mean that there is not a causal effect, though the larger the association, the more likely that it is causal.
2. Consistency (reproducibility): Consistent findings observed by different persons in different places with different samples strengthens the likelihood of an effect.
3. Specificity: Causation is likely if there is a very specific population at a specific site and disease with no other likely explanation. The more specific an association between a factor and an effect is, the bigger the probability of a causal relationship.[1]
4. Temporality: The effect has to occur after the cause (and if there is an expected delay between the cause and expected effect, then the effect must occur after that delay).
5. Biological gradient: Greater exposure should generally lead to greater incidence of the effect. However, in some cases, the mere presence of the factor can trigger the effect. In other cases, an inverse proportion is observed: greater exposure leads to lower incidence.[1]
6. Plausibility: A plausible mechanism between cause and effect is helpful (but Hill noted that knowledge of the mechanism is limited by current knowledge).
7. Coherence: Coherence between epidemiological and laboratory findings increases the likelihood of an effect. However, Hill noted that "... lack of such [laboratory] evidence cannot nullify the epidemiological effect on associations".
8. Experiment: "Occasionally it is possible to appeal to experimental evidence".
9. Analogy: The effect of similar factors may be considered.

There is no hypoxia at all. It's not even intermittent hypoxia. It's just increased carbon retention with Buteyko and bag breathing. I'm sure you're well-versed with the effect of carbon dioxide on tissue oxygenation, and you have stated that. It has a positive effect, without which oxygen is not released to the tissues. All Buteyko and bag breathing is doing is increasing tissue oxygenation - albeit for normal, healthy subjects.

Where does hypoxia even come in here?

I am using the term hypoxia or hypoxic to describe a reduced O2 concentration of inhaled air and a subsequent reduction in blood oxygenation. Both bag breathing and buteyko have that effect. I agree that the increased CO2 helps liberate what O2 remains in the blood but am only questioning as to what point the risks outweighs the benefit.

I think you're getting ahead of yourself by making the possible harm scenario stand out over the benefits of Buteyko and bag breathing. I won't say what you're saying isn't possible, but the body has a mechanism in place to keep that from happening. Can you kill yourself by withholding your breath? If there's high blood acidity, we hyperventilate to expel CO2 from the lungs.

Just asking questions

 

[x-ray peat]

This is my take on oximeter readings: The readings are subject to interpretation. It's not a straight case of the higher the SpO2 reading, the better. This is what most people think, and the oximeter manufacturers do nothing to educate. Maybe it's not their job. They just have to make units that does their job, and these units work remarkably well. Perhaps doctors and nurses should know how to interpret these readings, but they don't. They still go by the kindergarten interpretation.

I just think of an oximeter as someone who counts how many passengers are in a bus at a given bus station. A bus picks up passengers at point A, and drops passengers at point B, not to pick up anymore, and drops the remaining passengers at point C. On the way from point B to point C, a count is made by this person. Let's say bus picks up 100 passengers, and because of a door malfunction, can't drop passengers off at point B. When a count is made, the number of passengers, 100, is noted down. Next day, same number of passengers board at point A, and since the door is working, some passengers alight at point B. A count is made, and the count of 88 is noted down.

Now, I ask, is a count of 100 better than a count of 88? Obviously, the latter is. Because the bus was doing its job of not only picking up passengers, but dropping them off at their intended destination. Now, think of oxygen molecules attached to hemoglobin (the bus). And think of point A as the lungs, point B as the fingertip where the oximeter clamps on, and point C as the point before blood goes back to the lungs.

Would you say that your 96 reading is considered a better reading than the 86 reading? 96 could very well mean that less oxygen is being released to the tissues than the reading that says 86. So it could be said that your Buteyko exercises improved your tissue oxygenation, wouldn't it?

I agree with that analogy but like I said above at some point the benefits of higher CO2 concentrations are offset by the dangers of the lower blood oxygen levels. I see Buteyko and bag breathing as having a U shaped response curve like red light therapy and think its useful to try and figure out where that sweet spot is.

 

[tara]

I am using the term hypoxia or hypoxic to describe a reduced O2 concentration of inhaled air and a subsequent reduction in blood oxygenation.

That might be the source of confusion. AIUI,
hypoxemia = low blood oxygen (what you were talking about)
hypoxia = low tissue oxygen (what I was talking about)

 

[yerrag]

I agree with that analogy but like I said above at some point the benefits of higher CO2 concentrations are offset by the dangers of the lower blood oxygen levels. I see Buteyko and bag breathing as having a U shaped response curve like red light therapy and think its useful to try and figure out where that sweet spot is.

With my limited experience as a personal but irregular Buteyko practitioner, I can't give any example of when Buteyko becomes harmful but I can see how dangerous it can be when using an external device to augment carbon dioxide to a breathing apparatus. An external device is not connected to our personal feedback loop and involuntary reflex system.

 

[tara]

With my limited experience as a personal but irregular Buteyko practitioner, I can't give any example of when Buteyko becomes harmful but I can see how dangerous it can be when using an external device to augment carbon dioxide to a breathing apparatus.

I had migraines following a couple of my early experiments trying Buteyko exercises. I might have been going to get those migraines anyway, so I'm not sure it causal. But it is a a known risk - that too strong practice can trigger migraines or panic attacks in susceptible people.

AIUI, hyperventilation can lead to respiratory alkalosis. But if you are at risk of diabetic acidosis, hyperventilating may counteract that. In that situation, working to prevent hyperventilation might undermine a life-preserving adaptation.

I read about Buteyko before reading Peat. But breathing improvement went better after I'd begun reading Peat and changed my diet. I think it was probably both the increase in alkaline minerals and the improvement in blood sugar stability that helped support better breathing. Trying to force reduced breathing against the stresses of malnutrition didn't go to well for me.

 

[Blossom]

Peat has mentioned that bag breathing should be stopped just when it starts to become uncomfortable. I think done this way it is safe.

at some point the benefits of higher CO2 concentrations are offset by the dangers of the lower blood oxygen

You might find this informative.
Oxygen–hemoglobin dissociation curve - Wikipedia

 

[x-ray peat]

That might be the source of confusion. AIUI,
hypoxemia = low blood oxygen (what you were talking about)
hypoxia = low tissue oxygen (what I was talking about)

yes good to clarify so we're all on the same page. I would just add that hypoxia is often used to describe both conditions but will go with your more precise definitions. Also the adjective hypoxic is often used to describe low O2 air as well as referring to hypoxia.

With my limited experience as a personal but irregular Buteyko practitioner, I can't give any example of when Buteyko becomes harmful but I can see how dangerous it can be when using an external device to augment carbon dioxide to a breathing apparatus. An external device is not connected to our personal feedback loop and involuntary reflex system.

I would agree with that. I think Bag Breathing would fall into that category and as mentioned by others can be easily overdone beyond what Ray has recommended. Sleeping under the covers, to come full circle, is also dangerous for the same reason.

Peat has mentioned that bag breathing should be stopped just when it starts to become uncomfortable. I think done this way it is safe.

You might find this informative.
Oxygen–hemoglobin dissociation curve - Wikipedia

yes thank you.

 

[tankasnowgod]

On the IBT thread, Andrew Fletcher has been taking about humidity being a factor in regards to circulation, and high humidity being a big problem. Sleeping with covers over mouth and nose would likely create a very humid micro environment, and might be a big factor, if not the true culprit, if there is any issue here. For short spurts of bag breathing..... this probably would not be an issue. But this could be an issue for longer sessions, or in an already humid enviorment.

 

[Lawrence Thomas]

Tried bag breathing for the first time today, could only manage twenty seconds!

 

[tara]

Tried bag breathing for the first time today, could only manage twenty seconds!

If it's a smallish closed bag, that doesn't seem surprising to me. IIRC, Peat has talked about a minute or two.
The people who say they can do it for a long time (15+ mins!) must be either using leaky connections/bags or very large ones.

You could try finding a bigger bag, or just go with what you've got, and try doing it again a few more times a day, and see if it seems helpful.

 

[shepherdgirl]

Association between Periodontitis and Alzheimer's Disease Association between Periodontitis and Alzheimer's Disease

"Periodontitis is also considered to be one of the probable risk factors for AD."

Maybe jumping to conclusions here, but: is it not true that mouth breathers, who dry their mouths out during sleep, have an increased risk for periodontitis and hence (according to this study) AD? Whereas nose breathers would be less likely to suffer from periodontitis since their mouth saliva does not dry up during sleep. This would possibly indicate that nose breathing does not lead to AD, while mouth breathing does. But my understanding is that nose breathing is a form of rebreathing, trapping CO2 and restricting air passage much more than mouth breathing. So some degree of rebreathing would seem to be ok.

 

[LucyL]

Now that its 2020, I'm going to bump this post to add MASKS!

 

[orewashin]

There are confounding factors here. They used a poorly-ventilated office environment. It isn't only carbon dioxide levels that are increased, but other gases that are emitted from the various furnishings, paints, cleaning chemicals, and what not.

If they really want to do an accurate study, they could just use Carbogenetic's carbogen machine to continually breath in a gaseous mixture that involves mixing air with carbon dioxide. However, the lowest setting is at 5% CO2, which equates to 50,000 ppm. While this would be a high CO2 mixture, it at the very least ensures no toxic gases are included, and that no stale air is used.

It must be either a poorly designed experiment or one intended to make CO2 look really really bad.

Has anyone tried a Carbogenetics machine? It looks like their site doesn't work right now.

http://metabolicinfusion.com/shop/