Is Bag Breathing Dangerous? Study Says Sleeping With Head Covered Can Lead To Alzheimers/Dementia

yerrag

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Is CO2 an Indoor Pollutant? Direct Effects of Low-to-Moderate CO2 Concentrations on Human Decision-Making Performance
Results: Relative to 600 ppm, at 1,000 ppm CO2, moderate and statistically significant decrements occurred in six of nine scales of decision-making performance. At 2,500 ppm, large and statistically significant reductions occurred in seven scales of decision-making performance (raw score ratios, 0.06–0.56), but performance on the focused activity scale increased.

There are confounding factors here. They used a poorly-ventilated office environment. It isn't only carbon dioxide levels that are increased, but other gases that are emitted from the various furnishings, paints, cleaning chemicals, and what not.

If they really want to do an accurate study, they could just use Carbogenetic's carbogen machine to continually breath in a gaseous mixture that involves mixing air with carbon dioxide. However, the lowest setting is at 5% CO2, which equates to 50,000 ppm. While this would be a high CO2 mixture, it at the very least ensures no toxic gases are included, and that no stale air is used.

It must be either a poorly designed experiment or one intended to make CO2 look really really bad.
 

yerrag

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Association of lung function with cognitive decline and dementia: the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC) Study. - PubMed - NCBI
Reduced lung function was associated with worse performance in cognitive assessments and with an increased risk of dementia hospitalization. Future research should determine whether maintaining optimal pulmonary health might prevent cognitive impairment and dementia.

This is merely an associative relationship, not at all establishing anything causal.
 

yerrag

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Hypoxia and Alzheimer disease
Letter to Journal editor:
Prolonged or chronic hypoxia has been shown to alter the excitability and functional expression of ion channels, which possibly contributes to neurodegeneration. Reduced oxygen levels result in the formation of β-amyloid protein through amyloidogenic processing of amyloid precursor protein, leading to upregulation of native L-type calcium channels and disruption of calcium homeostasis.5 Cholinergic neurons may be especially vulnerable to β-amyloid protein toxicity.6 The dysregulated calcium expression following hypoxia in central neurons may contribute to the neurotoxicity of β- amyloid protein and subsequent development of Alzheimer disease.

Hypoxia and Alzheimer, but no mention of carbon dioxide. Does not implicate carbon dioxide at all.
 

biffbelvin

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I don't see what the big problem is here? Bag Breathing and Buteyko are dangerous by virtue of the fact that they're extremely effective at invoking a physiological response.

It's one of the reasons why the author of normalbreathing.com constantly recommends people go to Buteyko Practictioners; and specifically warns against diabetics practicing Buteyko without a medical professional present.

Heck, I thought I had the technique locked down, but when I practise Buteyko with a dvd instructional video, the effects are much more profound than when I practise on my own (I find this to be the case with most exercises/instructional videos).

Just because something is dangerous, it doesn't mean that it should be avoided (otherwise the majority of therapies discussed on this website should be disregarded). One just needs to approach it in a measured and responsible manner and discuss those therapies with others to keep yourself in check (eg. raising Co2 by putting a pillowcase over your head is extremely stupid).
 

yerrag

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I don't see what the big problem is here? Bag Breathing and Buteyko are dangerous by virtue of the fact that they're extremely effective at invoking a physiological response.
It's also dangerous because people have different responses to increased CO2 intake and retention. One person successfully using it to improve health does not mean an equal outcome can be expected in another person, who may suffer harmful consequences from using it.
 

InChristAlone

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In the winter I sometimes need to cover my head due to low CO2. It warms me up so I can fall asleep. Then I sometimes fall asleep like that but will wake up to remove it. I can't imagine doing it for 8 hrs all night every night and who in the heck could do that unless they were very sick and hyperventilating all the time?
 
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x-ray peat

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Impaired lung function can be a good reason for extra caution with restricted-breathing methods.
I'd expect hypoxia to have negative effects, especially if it's prolonged.
Studies of high indoor CO12 as a pollutant might be confounded with other factors, like depleted O2 and increases in other constituents that are not being flushed out by sufficient exchange with fresh air. Eg gases etc from printers, furnishings, building and decorating materials etc in offices.

The purpose of short bag-breathing or longer duration slightly increased CO2 rebreathing or retention would be to reduce hypoxia, not increase it. To get that effect, you have to get theO2 and CO2 exchange at suitable rates - not too strong for too long, etc.

By only varying the CO2 concentration and keeping all other confounding variables constant they isolated their effect. The most logical conclusion is that the varying CO2 levels was responsible for the difference in reactions.

Bag breathing and Buteyko as well as altitude training and various forms of pranayama are all forms of intermittent hypoxia training. I think these studies show a strong reason to be cautious about extensive bag breathing or Buteyko. I agree with you that some may be beneficial but there is a strong risk of overdoing it, and who really knows what that line is.
 
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x-ray peat

x-ray peat

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There are confounding factors here. They used a poorly-ventilated office environment. It isn't only carbon dioxide levels that are increased, but other gases that are emitted from the various furnishings, paints, cleaning chemicals, and what not.

If they really want to do an accurate study, they could just use Carbogenetic's carbogen machine to continually breath in a gaseous mixture that involves mixing air with carbon dioxide. However, the lowest setting is at 5% CO2, which equates to 50,000 ppm. While this would be a high CO2 mixture, it at the very least ensures no toxic gases are included, and that no stale air is used.

It must be either a poorly designed experiment or one intended to make CO2 look really really bad.
see my response to Tara above.
 
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x-ray peat

x-ray peat

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This is merely an associative relationship, not at all establishing anything causal.
Correlation/association is the first step in establishing causation. These studies taken collectively all serve to gradually make that case. See Hill's Criteria for Causation.
 
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x-ray peat

x-ray peat

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Hypoxia and Alzheimer, but no mention of carbon dioxide. Does not implicate carbon dioxide at all.
Buteyko and bag breathing create intermittent hypoxia that lower oxygen levels. Increased CO2 in the blood makes more oxygen available to the tissue but at what point does that effect diminish and the reduced oxygen intake dominates.
 
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x-ray peat

x-ray peat

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I don't see what the big problem is here? Bag Breathing and Buteyko are dangerous by virtue of the fact that they're extremely effective at invoking a physiological response.

It's one of the reasons why the author of normalbreathing.com constantly recommends people go to Buteyko Practictioners; and specifically warns against diabetics practicing Buteyko without a medical professional present.

Heck, I thought I had the technique locked down, but when I practise Buteyko with a dvd instructional video, the effects are much more profound than when I practise on my own (I find this to be the case with most exercises/instructional videos).

Just because something is dangerous, it doesn't mean that it should be avoided (otherwise the majority of therapies discussed on this website should be disregarded). One just needs to approach it in a measured and responsible manner and discuss those therapies with others to keep yourself in check (eg. raising Co2 by putting a pillowcase over your head is extremely stupid).
absolutely. I think discussing these therapies is critical to finding the optimal methods. I am leaning towards the yogic practice of extending exhalation times as perhaps the safest way to increase CO2 levels. Buteyko and bag breathing seem a bit too extreme in light of these studies but I am open to changing my mind on it.
 
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yerrag

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see my response to Tara above.
How did they isolate the confounding variables by simply stating they conducted the study in an office-like setting? They more likely simulated a stale office-like setting and added CO2. More likely they kept CO2 within those settings by really restricting input of fresh air.

Again, I should mention they should have used something like a Carbogen breathing unit where fresh air is infused with carbon dioxide and fed the gaseous mixture to a breathing mask so that the CO2 content is controlled without subjects breathing stale and possibly toxic air. The study is flawed.

Correlation/association is the first step in establishing causation. These studies taken collectively all serve to gradually make that case. See Hill's Criteria for Causation.
Nothing causative is established. Nothing remotely probable. What studies do you refer to? I still don't see anything resembling making your case.

Buteyko and bag breathing create intermittent hypoxia that lower oxygen levels. Increased CO2 in the blood makes more oxygen available to the tissue but at what point does that effect diminish and the reduced oxygen intake dominates.

There is no hypoxia at all. It's not even intermittent hypoxia. It's just increased carbon retention with Buteyko and bag breathing. I'm sure you're well-versed with the effect of carbon dioxide on tissue oxygenation, and you have stated that. It has a positive effect, without which oxygen is not released to the tissues. All Buteyko and bag breathing is doing is increasing tissue oxygenation - albeit for normal, healthy subjects.

Where does hypoxia even come in here?

I think you're getting ahead of yourself by making the possible harm scenario stand out over the benefits of Buteyko and bag breathing. I won't say what you're saying isn't possible, but the body has a mechanism in place to keep that from happening. Can you kill yourself by withholding your breath? If there's high blood acidity, we hyperventilate to expel CO2 from the lungs.
 
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KDub

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I've been thinking about the office CO2 study for a while now after I read about it some months ago, and I wonder if the effect they saw could be from lowered stress hormones. Increasing my CO2 levels through various methods often leaves me feeling sleepy, and less alert, and I suspect that is due to lower stress hormones, not necessarily from hypoxia.
 

tara

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Buteyko and bag breathing create intermittent hypoxia that lower oxygen levels.
AIUI, the mechanisms described by Bohr and Buteyko show the opposite, at appropriate level/dosage, in situations of hyperventilation-induced hypoxia.

A study increasing CO2 levels uniformly for a random group of people is not the same as doing Buteyko method or appropriate personal bag-breathing.

CO2 is needed at appropriate levels in order for haemoglobin to release O2.
Cells and tissues producing CO2 can thereby attract more O2.
Hyperventilation, either acute or chronic, can lower the blood levels of CO2, and when tissues are not oxidising much O2, they struggle to produce much CO2. At such times, they can fail to attract as much O2 as they need. This can lead to the cells getting more hypoxic, even if the blood O2 level is high.

At that point, what they need is more CO2, so that they can get access to the available O2.

Certainly it's possible to overdo it, and and create a situation of excessive stress. Buteyko method, from my limited reading, seems to involve gradual training, involving relaxation and avoiding stress. Yogic breathing training too.

I would assume that if there is not enough oxygen in the air or blood, it will feel bad or stressful, and that will encourage seeking more oxygen. I'd be reluctant to override that for long.
 
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of course it is bad to do it, why would taping your mouth be good for you in anyway? because it forces you to breathe through your nose and "increase co2"? what if your nose is clogged, then you are getting less oxygen overall? makes sense to me to not do it, you should breathe through your nose automatically anyway if you are in decent health shape
 

tara

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of course it is bad to do it, why would taping your mouth be good for you in anyway? because it forces you to breathe through your nose and "increase co2"? what if your nose is clogged, then you are getting less oxygen overall? makes sense to me to not do it, you should breathe through your nose automatically anyway if you are in decent health shape
Have you tried it?
My experience is that it's the most effective way I know to clear a blocked nose (albeit briefly stressful).
When you are in good shape, your nose won't be clogged.
 

InChristAlone

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I've been taping my mouth at night for a yr. I notice a difference when I don't. It helps me with my mouth dropping open which isn't good for anything teeth, jaw, palate, quality of air. It became a habit in childhood and my mouth is smaller than it should be because of it. Hyperventilating at night also causes nightmares for me.
 

tara

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Correlation/association is the first step in establishing causation.
Correlation is a good source for questions - hypotheses - about causation.
Just because something is dangerous, it doesn't mean that it should be avoided (otherwise the majority of therapies discussed on this website should be disregarded). One just needs to approach it in a measured and responsible manner and discuss those therapies with others to keep yourself in check (eg. raising Co2 by putting a pillowcase over your head is extremely stupid).
I agree that one can cause harm by misusing some of those techniques, or supplementing excessive CO2 etc, especially for people who have particular vulnerabilities. For instance, if someone is hyperventilating as an adaptation to prevent acidosis, then it's a good idea to pay attention to and address the rest of the context before considering whether there is potential benefit in any practices to increase CO2. Or if someone has harm to the lungs, they may not be able to get enough oxygen/CO2 exchange, and you wouldn't want to be reducing it further.
It's not something to apply in a blanket (figurative or literal) standardised dose to everybody.

I definitely agree that just because something can be harmful if misused, that doesn't mean it should be completely avoided. Almost anything can cause harm if misused (as illustrated by DHMo_Org etc).

I agree that measured, responsible, informed practice, guided by experienced experts or in communication with other thoughtful informed people is a good way to go.

There are ways to put a pillowcase over your head that would not be extreme or dangerous for most people. For instance, don't stick your head inside the case, just lay it over the top of your head, leaving a gap for fresh air that can be increased or decreased easily as needed. As long as you listen to what feels OK, and don't try to get yourself to submit to stressful excess, I don't think this is likely to pose a danger?
 
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x-ray peat

x-ray peat

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I found an interesting paper that gets into the pros and cons of various intermittent hypoxic therapies. Not sure how applicable this is to Buteyko or bag breathing because even though they match the reduced oxygen intake of those methods they are missing the beneficial effects of CO2.

https://www.physiology.org/doi/10.1152/ajpregu.00208.2014
Abstract

Intermittent hypoxia (IH) has been the subject of considerable research in recent years, and triggers a bewildering array of both detrimental and beneficial effects in multiple physiological systems. ...Not surprisingly, severe/chronic IH protocols tend to be pathogenic, whereas any beneficial effects are more likely to arise from modest/acute IH exposures. Features of the IH protocol most highly associated with beneficial vs. pathogenic outcomes include the level of hypoxemia within episodes and the number of episodes per day. Modest hypoxia (9–16% inspired O2) and low cycle numbers (3–15 episodes per day) most often lead to beneficial effects without pathology, whereas severe hypoxia (2–8% inspired O2) and more episodes per day (48–2,400 episodes/day) elicit progressively greater pathology. Accumulating evidence suggests that “low dose” IH (modest hypoxia, few episodes) may be a simple, safe, and effective treatment with considerable therapeutic potential for multiple clinical disorders.

this graph is pretty interesting
zh60221485990001.jpeg


Btw I did a 20 second Buteyko CP with a pulse/oximeter on and my O2 concentration went from 96% to 86% and back. The question is how many times per day is safe to do. If I did that a lot I would think it would cause some cognitive damage similar to sleep apnea.
 
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yerrag

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Btw I did a 20 second Buteyko CP with a pulse/doximeter on and my O2 concentration went from 96% to 86% and back. Now if I did that multiple times per day I may be causing some damage similar to how sleep apnea can cause cognitive damage.

This is my take on oximeter readings: The readings are subject to interpretation. It's not a straight case of the higher the SpO2 reading, the better. This is what most people think, and the oximeter manufacturers do nothing to educate. Maybe it's not their job. They just have to make units that does their job, and these units work remarkably well. Perhaps doctors and nurses should know how to interpret these readings, but they don't. They still go by the kindergarten interpretation.

I just think of an oximeter as someone who counts how many passengers are in a bus at a given bus station. A bus picks up passengers at point A, and drops passengers at point B, not to pick up anymore, and drops the remaining passengers at point C. On the way from point B to point C, a count is made by this person. Let's say bus picks up 100 passengers, and because of a door malfunction, can't drop passengers off at point B. When a count is made, the number of passengers, 100, is noted down. Next day, same number of passengers board at point A, and since the door is working, some passengers alight at point B. A count is made, and the count of 88 is noted down.

Now, I ask, is a count of 100 better than a count of 88? Obviously, the latter is. Because the bus was doing its job of not only picking up passengers, but dropping them off at their intended destination. Now, think of oxygen molecules attached to hemoglobin (the bus). And think of point A as the lungs, point B as the fingertip where the oximeter clamps on, and point C as the point before blood goes back to the lungs.

Would you say that your 96 reading is considered a better reading than the 86 reading? 96 could very well mean that less oxygen is being released to the tissues than the reading that says 86. So it could be said that your Buteyko exercises improved your tissue oxygenation, wouldn't it?
 

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