Is attitude the main difference between happiness/health and misery/disease?

[Collden]

Life is mostly pain, most of our basic pleasure-seeking behaviours such as eating and distracting ourselves with media consumption are simply trying to alleviate the pain of existence. The older you get the more life becomes about duties, responsibilities, compromises and learning to subjugate your instinctual urges. Does being spoiled as a child and never learning that getting what you want requires effort and suffering correlate with being less happy and healthy as adult? In the past, men particularly became adults by being forced into war or at least doing military training where learn that they cannot always get what they want and need to endure suffering to reach a higher goal. Is the lack of these kinds of experiences making modern people soft and sensitive and more prone to becoming stressed and miserable from trivial things?

From my observations, people from developing nations who have experienced tremendous hardship and suffering by western standards seem to more easily find joy in life, and healthy people more willingly subject themselves to stressors such as exercise, spicy/complex foods or seeking out challenging experiences, whereas unhealthy/unhappy people seem to mostly seek out quick gratification such as junk food, media consumption and avoidance of any kind of effort. Is the trick to happiness to learn to enjoy pain, to become joyful by overcoming suffering, rather than by trying to avoid it?

I'm wondering about this as someone who has frequently been called spoiled and sensitive by people close to me and is often not in the best of spirits. Just the other night I had a terrible take-away meal for dinner that gave me an upset stomach and put me in an outright depressed mood for the next 24hrs, whereas my friend, who grew up in a poor family and had the same meal also noted the low food quality but was still in usual good spirits the next day. Is the difference between us just our attitude in how we deal with adverse experiences?

 

[Ben.]

Many on this forum will probably agree with the mantra "hard times creates hard men" or however the saying goes. I disagree in the sense that humans are far more complex than that.
Sounds like this toxic hustle culture to me, where one just needs to "do it". This only works until it doesnt.

Take the greatest man/woman you can think of, deprive him/her of the hormones, enzymes, neurotransmitter and energy that are necessary to do what they do, to feel and think the way they do, alter the right screw at the right place, downregulate systemic functions and voila ... the once great persona is a completly different being. Maybe, just maybe some people have been vitimcs of thoose biological misshappenings from childhood on, creating dull and unjoyful people.

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Feel free to believe what you want ofcourse. This is my pov and i think things are alot more nuanced than that. I mean you said it yourself, healthy people are more likely to subject themselves to stressors as they usually lead to some kind of reward. But the key word here for me is "healthy".

I guess what you propose, "learn to enjoy pain" only leads to happiness if it is necessary to do/have/achieve what you want/need to be happy, but i dont think pain/suffering for the sake of it creates happiness.

 

[LucyL]

That sounds a lot more like endotoxin reaction. As my health has improved, I find I am able to more easily identify negative mental reactions to physical stimuli - such as poor sleep, lack of sufficient caloric intake, or even the general observation 'i feel like crap' and oh yeah, i'm also in a crappy mood. Similarly, I have a family member that will exhibit increasingly negative attitudes, and a dose of activated charcoal helps out considerably.

 

[Hermes]

Take the greatest man/woman you can think of, deprive him/her of the hormones, neurotransmitter and energy that are necessary to do what they do, to feel and think the way they do, alter the right screw at the right place, downregulate systemic functions and voila ... the once great persona is a completly different being. Maybe, just maybe some people have been vitimcs of thoose biological misshappenings from childhood on, creating dull and unjoyful people.

Totally agree. The mantra fake it till you make it, is totally misguided. The ability of one's mind to influence one's body is intrinsically related to one's health status. Some healthy people swear by things like "the law of attraction", like my girlfriend's father, and you know what, I believe him. Healthy people won't understand the innumerable struggles that diseased people experience. I have glimpses of good health, short peaks into a window of might be, but I tell you what, it's a metabolic substance that enabled it. The mind is a wonderfully created illusion by the body, totally worth feeding this wonderful body. But it's the body that came first, and it's the body that leaves last. In between, healthy people are blessed with wonderful thoughts. Ray Peat said something like when thyroid is working properly you can think what you want. That sounds like freedom, to choose your own life. I hope I'll find this place once. And everybody else who's on this journey to improved health.

 

[Collden]

So those saying that health does not result from your attitude but is more about avoidance of negative stressors, you would say that if we took the typical western obese stress-aversive couch potato and threw him into a harsher environment where he'd be forced to cope on a simple diet and live without modern conveniences - this mans health would likely just continue to deteriorate even faster rather than growing more resilient?

 

[Digital Samurai]

Food influences health.
Thoughts influence health.
Food influences thought.

I think you have to get both right. If health is bringing one down, thoughts follow. One might need to force positive thoughts in the beginning of health journey as a way of breaking through the downward spiral they might be stuck in.

 

[Ben.]

So those saying that health does not result from your attitude but is more about avoidance of negative stressors, you would say that if we took the typical western obese stress-aversive couch potato and threw him into a harsher environment where he'd be forced to cope on a simple diet and live without modern conveniences - this mans health would likely just continue to deteriorate even faster rather than growing more resilient?

Who said health is about avoidance of stress? A healthy person can take stress, alot of it. A unhealthy person can't or barely can.

I personally think while attitude can influence health, it is probably the other way around. Your health and your bodys functions determine how you feel and thus influence your attitude and how you think more so than the other way around.

Thinking that attitude is solely responsible for these behaviours and is independent of your body is a convenient perspective portraied by mainstream and also the medical world. Calling people fat/lazy couch potatoes is easy for thoose not in that position. I dont realy understand why we people like to think so little of their fellow man, because in reality, most want to feel great, be great and do awsome things. Some people dont understand themself why they are in that position and why they feel/think the way they do.

I refuse to believe that people who are literally stuck in suicidal depression and awful health hazardious habits just have a simple attitude/thinking problem. That is not ment to say that conciously/actively changing the perspective/chain of thoughts isn't helpful in getting further or getting started in ones healthjourney/life goals. Sometimes that is necessary to stop a negative vicious loop.

I have a family member that will exhibit increasingly negative attitudes, and a dose of activated charcoal helps out considerably.

Great example. Had that endotoxin experience messing with my mood/thoughts last weekend.

Healthy people won't understand the innumerable struggles that diseased people experience. I have glimpses of good health, short peaks into a window of might be, but I tell you what, it's a metabolic substance that enabled it.

Exactly, but i cant blame them. It is good that they don't understand, because otherwise they would be or would've been in an awfull health state themself, i don't wish that upon anybody.
I had these glimps too, and its like being another person. I think one needs to experience it to understand it. There is no constant anxiety, depressive thoughts, odd or wierd behaviour or fear. Theres confidence, joy, fluentness and energy.

I hope I'll find this place once. And everybody else who's on this journey to improved health.

You will. Just need to find the underlying cause. Wish you all the best on your journey.

 

[LucyL]

So those saying that health does not result from your attitude but is more about avoidance of negative stressors, you would say that if we took the typical western obese stress-aversive couch potato and threw him into a harsher environment where he'd be forced to cope on a simple diet and live without modern conveniences - this mans health would likely just continue to deteriorate even faster rather than growing more resilient?

Sometimes literally all you have to work with is your mental attitude. But if you are in a position where you can adjust your physiology to help your mental attitude, the improvement will be much bigger and better. And tbh, give a couch potato a simple diet and a break from modern conveniences (eg emf fields) and perhaps throw in a little hard work that provides a simple sense of accomplishment and I bet he will improve physically as well as mentally.

 

[Nemo]

Life is mostly pain, most of our basic pleasure-seeking behaviours such as eating and distracting ourselves with media consumption are Is the trick to happiness to learn to enjoy pain, to become joyful by overcoming suffering, rather than by trying to avoid it?

Collden, I wish I could hook you up with Cloudhands for one of his LSD tabs.

Life is a miracle. You are walking in a miracle. You are a miracle.

If LSD is out of the question, I would work on your serotonin levels.

 

[Collden]

Collden, I wish I could hook you up with Cloudhands for one of his LSD tabs.

Life is a miracle. You are walking in a miracle. You are a miracle.

If LSD is out of the question, I would work on your serotonin levels.

Thanks, I've taken a number of psychadelics including shrooms and ayahuasca, not LSD though. In my experience the dopaminergic boost after suchs trips is substantial, but fleeting.

 

[Nemo]

Thanks, I've taken a number of psychadelics including shrooms and ayahuasca, not LSD though. In my experience the dopaminergic boost after suchs trips is substantial, but fleeting.

In my experience, even a single dose of LSD changes your life forever. You don't even need a dose sufficient to give you hallucinations. A low dose is better.

Maybe DM Cloudhands about it.

 

[Collden]

Just another example of this. I avoid reading in the bus because it gives me motion sickness. I thought this was a symptom of hypothyroidism and would only go away if I improved my health.

Then I looked it up and it turns out the main treatment for motion sickness is simply to keep doing it until it goes away, its very successful method for fighter pilots.

Ergo, avoidance and mistakenly believing in your own weakness actually just perpetuates the health problem.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Similarly, I have a family member that will exhibit increasingly negative attitudes, and a dose of activated charcoal helps out considerably.

Can relate.
AC taken at night will result in me waking up happy and optimistic about life.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Totally agree. The mantra fake it till you make it, is totally misguided. The ability of one's mind to influence one's body is intrinsically related to one's health status. Some healthy people swear by things like "the law of attraction", like my girlfriend's father, and you know what, I believe him. Healthy people won't understand the innumerable struggles that diseased people experience. I have glimpses of good health, short peaks into a window of might be, but I tell you what, it's a metabolic substance that enabled it. The mind is a wonderfully created illusion by the body, totally worth feeding this wonderful body. But it's the body that came first, and it's the body that leaves last. In between, healthy people are blessed with wonderful thoughts. Ray Peat said something like when thyroid is working properly you can think what you want. That sounds like freedom, to choose your own life. I hope I'll find this place once. And everybody else who's on this journey to improved health.

This might be one of the best posts written on this forum in the past year.

 

[TheBeard]

Life is mostly pain, most of our basic pleasure-seeking behaviours such as eating and distracting ourselves with media consumption are simply trying to alleviate the pain of existence. The older you get the more life becomes about duties, responsibilities, compromises and learning to subjugate your instinctual urges. Does being spoiled as a child and never learning that getting what you want requires effort and suffering correlate with being less happy and healthy as adult? In the past, men particularly became adults by being forced into war or at least doing military training where learn that they cannot always get what they want and need to endure suffering to reach a higher goal. Is the lack of these kinds of experiences making modern people soft and sensitive and more prone to becoming stressed and miserable from trivial things?

From my observations, people from developing nations who have experienced tremendous hardship and suffering by western standards seem to more easily find joy in life, and healthy people more willingly subject themselves to stressors such as exercise, spicy/complex foods or seeking out challenging experiences, whereas unhealthy/unhappy people seem to mostly seek out quick gratification such as junk food, media consumption and avoidance of any kind of effort. Is the trick to happiness to learn to enjoy pain, to become joyful by overcoming suffering, rather than by trying to avoid it?

I'm wondering about this as someone who has frequently been called spoiled and sensitive by people close to me and is often not in the best of spirits. Just the other night I had a terrible take-away meal for dinner that gave me an upset stomach and put me in an outright depressed mood for the next 24hrs, whereas my friend, who grew up in a poor family and had the same meal also noted the low food quality but was still in usual good spirits the next day. Is the difference between us just our attitude in how we deal with adverse experiences?

You have it upside down.

People who seek challenges are those lucky enough to have good health no matter what they inflict to their body.

When your body is full of endotoxins, you are depressed and feel like doing absolutely nothing.

I've experienced both in a very short period of time thanks to supplement, and can guarantee that the power of the mind is nothing against endotoxins.

When I'm on antibiotics and testosterone, I can lift mountains, be creative, travel the world, seduce women with wit.

When full of endotoxins, I don't even have the energy to watch TV.

Life is easy for the healthy. They think they are trying harder than the sick, they just don't know that it's all facilitated by how well their brain and body chemistry works for them, not thanks to their willpower.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

That sounds a lot more like endotoxin reaction. As my health has improved, I find I am able to more easily identify negative mental reactions to physical stimuli - such as poor sleep, lack of sufficient caloric intake, or even the general observation 'i feel like crap' and oh yeah, i'm also in a crappy mood.

I wonder what are your best strategies that helped you in combating endotoxin.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

I had these glimps too, and its like being another person. I think one needs to experience it to understand it. There is no constant anxiety, depressive thoughts, odd or wierd behaviour or fear. Theres confidence, joy, fluentness and energy.

I've had glimpses of this on Cypro, charcoal and T3 sometimes.
When I get the right dose of T3, negative thoughts don't even enter my mind, and if they do, I can easily discard them. There is pure Joy and oneness with life.

 

[Collden]

I've had glimpses of this on Cypro, charcoal and T3 sometimes.
When I get the right dose of T3, negative thoughts don't even enter my mind, and if they do, I can easily discard them. There is pure Joy and oneness with life.

I've also experienced these exuberant states, most notably after a very strong mushroom trip I briefly felt completely free, like I could be and do anything I wanted, I was not shackled by my past, my previous health concerns momentarily did not even exist. But a chemically induced high never lasts, eventually you return to your baseline. And what is it that determines your baseline? I believe its mainly your own mental prison formed by decades of social conditioning. A chemically induced high allows you to temporarily glimpse the outside world from within your prison cell, but to actually escape it requires work in the real world to break your mental programming, and a lot of that programming one must break I believe is related to pain avoidance.

Freedom is knowing that you can achieve anything you set your mind to, if you have a problem, knowing that you can solve it. But a pre-condition of attaining that freedom is accepting that achieving anything or solving any kind of problem involves pain, whether its the pain of losing weight if you're overweight, the pain of becoming fit if you're a couch potato, the pain of approaching women and facing possible rejection if you're shy, the pain of working hard when you're lazy, the pain of focusing on a problem when you're procrastinating, the pain of confronting dysfunctional relationships, the pain of overcoming any kind of weakness that is holding you back in life. Being able to accept the pain that comes with working to achieve what you want leads to a sense of freedom, the opposite of learned helplessness. And it is this sense of freedom that will liberate your metabolism.

 

[gaze]

I have experienced the exact same thing. I often think of people who go through cancer, or get paralyzed, or who lose limbs. Thinking about the millions of people who grow up poor, in war torn countries, are homeless, and yet persist with a good attitude. Yet I get grumpy, angry, and complain cause an under ripe fruit irritated my stomach. laughable when you think about it from a grand scheme. When I'm healthy, I convince myself that I'm not going to complain about anything, I'm gonna accept all the pain that comes my way, and Im gonna endure with a good attitude, but all it takes is one night of bad sleep and some intestinal problems and all that goes out the window. I do think understanding why you are acting a certain way can help because you don't get stuck in bad loops. Like when your grumpy because of irritation, you know its just endotoxin and that you have something to work on to fix it, so your not just stuck in a grumpy mood for days. It's alot easier to get out of these moods when you know its dietary related vs the rest of the public who thinks personality problems are intrinsic to the person. for me also its very frequently related to low blood sugar too. I think ray said something that after a big serving of carbohydrates (he even used pasta as the example) that everything becomes O.K. in the world and you feel contempt.

 

[gaze]

Totally agree. The mantra fake it till you make it, is totally misguided. The ability of one's mind to influence one's body is intrinsically related to one's health status. Some healthy people swear by things like "the law of attraction", like my girlfriend's father, and you know what, I believe him. Healthy people won't understand the innumerable struggles that diseased people experience. I have glimpses of good health, short peaks into a window of might be, but I tell you what, it's a metabolic substance that enabled it. The mind is a wonderfully created illusion by the body, totally worth feeding this wonderful body. But it's the body that came first, and it's the body that leaves last. In between, healthy people are blessed with wonderful thoughts. Ray Peat said something like when thyroid is working properly you can think what you want. That sounds like freedom, to choose your own life. I hope I'll find this place once. And everybody else who's on this journey to improved health.

well said. there will be times where i go months feeling really good, to the point where i completely forget about the multiple years I felt awful, and i start attributing health to mindset more and more. then of course momentarily i feel bad and i remember the mind over matter thing is an illusion and it all comes down to hormonal balance. and that's comimg from someone who's experienced both sides of the equation, so i can only imagine how judgemental the average healthy person is who's never understood what it feels like to be truly sick. when your healthy, it's so easy to just look at someone who's homeless or an addict or whatever it may be and just attribute it to a bad mindset and habits, cause it's impossible to truly know the hell those people are going through.