Iron

[Ray-Z]

Amy, so causing bleeding with aspirin isn't really that bad and actually probably quite good? If you do cause an ulcer, it will most likely heal up after you stop aspirin?

Charlie, please.
Don't. Go. There.

Narouz: If you don't let him use aspirin, he'll use Rachel's idea: leeches!

 

[charlie]

Why not both?

 

[narouz]

Those were some great suggestions by kettlebell.

In addition, I would add blood donation *every two months* as long as one is eligible. However, with a diagnosis of hemochromatosis, one can get a prescription for even more frequent donations. Besides menstruation and inducing bleeding ulcers with aspirin, or taking phytate (IP6) in a supplemental fashion (and perhaps oxalic acid), there are no other known ways to lower body stores of iron.

If you are really interested in this topic, I would highly recommend the book by E. D. Weinberg, Exposing the Hidden Dangers of Iron: What Every Medical Professional Should Know About the Impact of Iron on the Disease Process.

http://www.amazon.com/Exposing-Hidden-D ... 1581823363

Also, there is a lot of information in the Iron Disorders Institute website:

http://www.irondisorders.org/

One of the most helpful pages on that site is the one for medical professionals on interpreting iron tests:

http://www.irondisorders.org/tests-to-d ... on-levels/

Amy

Eur J Clin Nutr. 2008 Mar;62(3):336-41. Epub 2007 Apr 18.
Oxalic acid does not influence nonhaem iron absorption in humans: a comparison of kale and spinach meals.

METHODS:

Iron absorption was measured based on erythrocyte incorporation of (57)Fe or (58)Fe 14 days after the administration of labelled meals. In study I, test meals consisted of two wheat bread rolls (100 g) and either 150 g spinach with a native OA content of 1.27 g (reference meal) or 150 g kale with a native OA content of 0.01 g. In study II, 150 g kale given with a potassium oxalate drink to obtain a total OA content of 1.27 g was compared to the spinach meal.
RESULTS:

After normalization for the spinach reference meal absorption, geometric mean iron absorption from wheat bread rolls with kale (10.7%) did not differ significantly from wheat rolls with kale plus 1.26 g OA added as potassium oxalate (11.5%, P=0.86). Spinach was significantly higher in calcium and polyphenols than kale and absorption from the spinach meal was 24% lower compared to the kale meal without added OA, but the difference did not reach statistical significance (P>0.16).
CONCLUSION:

Potassium oxalate did not influence iron absorption in humans from a kale meal and our findings strongly suggest that OA in fruits and vegetables is of minor relevance in iron nutrition.

PMID:
17440529

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INTERESTING THAT HERE THEY ATTRIBUTE THE ISSUE TO OXALATE AND NOT POLYPHENOLS:
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Fractional magnesium absorption is significantly lower in human subjects from a meal served with an oxalate-rich vegetable, spinach, as compared with a meal served with kale, a vegetable with a low oxalate content.
Bohn T, Davidsson L, Walczyk T, Hurrell RF.
Source

Laboratory for Human Nutrition, Institute of Food Science and Nutrition, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich, Switzerland.
Abstract

The aim of the present study was to evaluate Mg absorption from a test meal served with an oxalate-rich vegetable, spinach, as compared with a test meal served with a vegetable with a low oxalate content, kale. Mg absorption was measured by a stable-isotope technique based on extrinsic labelling of the test meals and faecal monitoring of the excreted isotope labels. Nine healthy adults participated in the study. The test meals were based on 100 g phytate-free white bread, served with 300 g spinach (6.6 mmol oxalate; 0.7 mmol (25)Mg label added, 5.0 mmol total Mg) or 300 g kale (0.1 mmol oxalate; 1.2 mmol (26)Mg label added, 4.8 mmol total Mg). The test meals were served on days 1 and 3, at breakfast and lunch, using a cross-over design. The results from the present study demonstrated that apparent Mg absorption was significantly lower from the meal served with spinach (26.7 (sd 10.4) %) than the meal served with kale (36.5 (sd 11.8) %) (P=0.01). However, the lower fractional apparent Mg absorption from the test meal served with spinach can be assumed to be, at least partly, counterbalanced by the higher native Mg content of spinach as compared with kale. Although based on indirect evidence, i.e. not based on an evaluation of added (or removed) oxalic acid, the difference in Mg absorption observed in the present study is attributed to the difference in oxalic acid content between the two vegetables.

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Inhibition of iron absorption by polyphenols as an anti-cancer mechanism

1. L. Mascitelli1 and
2. M.R. Goldstein2


1.
QJM (2011) 104 (5): 459-461. doi: 10.1093/qjmed/hcq239 First published online: December 15, 2010

The phenolic compounds are released from food or beverages during digestion, and can combine with iron in the intestinal lumen making it unavailable for absorption. The polyphenols are such powerful inhibitors of non-haem iron that substantial changes in the amount of iron absorbed are more likely to occur if the timing of consumption is altered, rather than the quantity.2 For example, a serving of yod kratin (leaves of the lead tree, Leucaena glauca, a vegetable with a high content of polyphenols and widely consumed in Thailand) reduced iron absorption from a composite meal of rice, fish and vegetables by almost 90%.4 Among elderly participants in the Framingham Heart Study, each cup of coffee (236 ml) consumed in a week was associated with 1% lower serum ferritin, a good measurement of body iron stores.5

Interestingly, all major types of food polyphenols can strongly inhibit dietary non-haem iron absorption, and a dose-dependent inhibitory effect of polyphenol compounds on iron absorption has been demonstrated. In particular, it has been reported that any beverage providing 20–50 mg total polyphenols reduce iron absorption from a bread meal by 50–70%, whereas beverages containing 100–400 mg total polyphenols reduce iron absorption by 60–90%.6 It was noticed that a single serving of instant coffee contains 120 mg of polyphenols.6 Because this study used a simple bread meal, extrapolation of the results to more complex meals might be difficult. However, it should be noted that sufficiently prolonged use of polyphenol compounds has been found to cause iron depletion or iron deficiency in populations with marginal iron stores.7,8 Furthermore, the consumption of polyphenol-containing beverages has been suggested as a useful strategy to reduce iron absorption in patients with iron overload disorders.9,10

The effect of regular tea-drinking during meals on accumulation of storage iron was evaluated in patients with genetic haemochromatosis,10 and the inhibitory effect of black tea on intestinal iron absorption was confirmed. Body iron stores were evaluated quantitatively by exhaustive phlebotomy, the assessment of body iron status being haemoglobin, saturation of serum iron binding capacity and serum ferritin. A significant reduction in iron absorption was observed when the test meal was accompanied by drinks of tea instead of water. In the tea-drinking group, the increase in storage iron was reduced by about one-third compared with that of the control group.

Thank you, Fat4 and Will2!
Very interesting stuff.
I will have to study it.
Just scanning though
I see that what Peat seemed to attribute to caffeine
(well, I'm not sure about that; I have to go back and reread him there)
some of these studies link instead to polyphenols.

I may be short-changing Peat there:
he may've said "coffee," not just "caffeine."
(Never a good bet to short-change Dr. P :) )

 

[narouz]

In addition, I would add blood donation *every two months* as long as one is eligible.
Amy

Amy-

So is that the deal I'll run into: every 2 months is the maximum frequency to donate?
I've been meaning to do it for months,
but I'm just everso slightly phobic about needles in my veins
(and never a fan of vampire movies/genre, I would add :) ).
So I seem to keep finding novel ways of procrastinating.
You would never know it
(he prided himself) I don't think,
if you watched me have blood drawn at my doctor's office.
But the nurse there did tell me that they use a bigger needle
at the blood donation places--
to increase blood flow, shorten time....

Charlie. You up there? You're a pro donater, aren't you...?

 

[charlie]

Every 56 days you are eligible. You wuss. Just a slight stick, no biggie. Yes, I donate as soon as I am eligible after the 56 days. The blood drive in my area comes around every 2 months.

 

[Birdie]

Amy, so causing bleeding with aspirin isn't really that bad and actually probably quite good? If you do cause an ulcer, it will most likely heal up after you stop aspirin?

Charlie, please.
Don't. Go. There.

Mine healed up. Remember? And I only stayed off aspirin for a few days. Then reintroduced dissolving it in hot water and taking with food plus glass of oj or some other liquid... Now, I'm taking 3 a day this way. Cheers!

Oop, another edit to tell the story right. I had stomach bleeding, not an ulcer, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[narouz]

You wuss. Just a slight stick, no biggie.

(Thanks, Charlie! )

 

[charlie]

Mine healed up. Remember? And I only stayed off aspirin for a few days. Then reintroduced dissolving it in hot water and taking with food plus glass of oj or some other liquid... Now, I'm taking 3 a day this way. Cheers!

Oop, another edit to tell the story right. I had stomach bleeding, not an ulcer, to the best of my knowledge.

Yep, thats why I asked. Seems to me like no big deal if a little bleeding happens. That just tells you to back off the aspirin of increase your dose of vitamin K.

(Thanks, Charlie! )

And not only does donating help us. Each donation can help up to 3 different people. The lady at the last blood drive told me they were something like 250 blood drives behind because of that hurricane that went through Jersey and all.

 

[Birdie]

I'm still having trouble with bruises on my arms. Same before and after starting aspirin. Have taken Super K for years. Still searching for the answer on that one. I take the amount of K that Peat recommends for the amount of aspirin I take.

Amy, any idea on that one?

 

[Birdie]

Probably, no for sure the wrong thread with my bruises. Sorry for sidetracking.

 

[narouz]

I'm still having trouble with bruises on my arms. Same before and after starting aspirin. Have taken Super K for years. Still searching for the answer on that one. I take the amount of K that Peat recommends for the amount of aspirin I take.

Amy, any idea on that one?

Birdie, you're not on any other blood thinner type meds, are you?
I had my dad taking one aspirin a day,
but he got extreme "bruising."
His doctor said it was because the aspirin was too much on top of the statin he is (damn it) taking.

 

[Birdie]

narouz babe,
I am on no meds.

And the bruising has going on for about 5 years. I have never been on meds. Oh, I am using LDN but only recently.

 

[Birdie]

Yes, it's the bruise thing that you see in old people. peatarian gave me some advice. I'm following it. More progesterone and I forget what else at the moment, but I've been doing it. She said she had something similar that went away.

I got a super huge one yesterday so I'm discouraged about it. Slammed my arm into the closet wall. Not a strong enough slam for this bruise. :2cents

 

[narouz]

From The problem of Alzheimer's disease as a clue to immortality - Part 2

"They are advancing a myth about human nature, so I will advance a counter-myth. At the time people were growing their large brains they lived in the tropics. I suggest that in this time before the development of grain-based agriculture, they ate a diet that was relatively free of unsaturated fats and low in iron--based on tropical fruits. I suggest that the Boskop skull from Mt. Kilimanjaro was representative of people under those conditions, and that just by our present knowledge of the association of brain size with longevity, they--as various "Golden Age" myths claim--must have had a very long life-span. As people moved north and developed new ways of living, their consumption of unsaturated fats increased, their brain size decreased, and they aged rapidly. Neanderthal relics show that flaxseed was a staple of their diet.
Even living in the tropics, there are many possibilities for diets rich in signal-disrupting substances, including iron, and in high latitudes there are opportunities for reducing our exposure to them. As a source of protein, milk is uniquely low in its iron content. Potatoes, because of the high quality of their protein, are probably relatively free of toxic signal-substances. Many tropical fruits, besides having relatively saturated fats, are also low in iron, and often contain important quantities of amino acids and proteins."

-Ray Peat

 

[Birdie]

That's a great quote. Cuts through a lot. ty.

 

[charlie]

narouz, check this out. Thought of you and the high iron, wonder if it will level out eventually.


http://peatarian.com/?qa=6264/the-forbi ... t-fructose

 

[narouz]

narouz, check this out. Thought of you and the high iron, wonder if it will level out eventually.


http://peatarian.com/?qa=6264/the-forbi ... t-fructose

Thanks, Charlie.
Yeah...that poster, "animal,"...
he presents too little data for me to feel very persuaded
of his view that fruit juice causes iron increase.
For one thing: what kind of juice?
Another: maybe he's drinking some OJ with red meat...

 

[Ray-Z]

I had my dad taking one aspirin a day,
but he got extreme "bruising."
His doctor said it was because the aspirin was too much on top of the statin he is (damn it) taking.

Narouz:

You have made a number of interesting and comment-worthy posts lately, and I haven't had a chance to reply to most of them. I do want to say now that I'm sorry to hear about your father and his statin. Bloody terrible drugs. (And of course, statins are only the tip of the iceberg of medical ignorance!) My father is on one, too. I was upset when I found out -- and by "upset," I mean about to storm into my father's doctor's office with a sharp knife and a ravenous pack of hyenas. So I can make some educated guesses about how you feel.

The only thing less fun than watching the people you love deteriorate is knowing why.

But on a happier note, at least Ray Peat has equipped us to do something about these absurdities, which we might not otherwise have recognized...

 

[charlie]

The only thing less fun than watching the people you love deteriorate is knowing why.

Quoted for truth.

 

[narouz]

I had my dad taking one aspirin a day,
but he got extreme "bruising."
His doctor said it was because the aspirin was too much on top of the statin he is (damn it) taking.

Narouz:

You have made a number of interesting and comment-worthy posts lately, and I haven't had a chance to reply to most of them. I do want to say now that I'm sorry to hear about your father and his statin. Bloody terrible drugs. (And of course, statins are only the tip of the iceberg of medical ignorance!) My father is on one, too. I was upset when I found out -- and by "upset," I mean about to storm into my father's doctor's office with a sharp knife and a ravenous pack of hyenas. So I can make some educated guesses about how you feel.

The only thing less fun than watching the people you love deteriorate is knowing why.

But on a happier note, at least Ray Peat has equipped us to do something about these absurdities, which we might not otherwise have recognized...

Thanks, Ray-Z.
Yeah...I've really wrestled with that.
I've wondered if there's just one doctor in Columbia, SC where he lives
who doesn't buy into the orthodoxy about chlolesterol and statins,
and if I could find that doctor I could wrangle my dad to visit him/her.
Alas...I have so little hope that that one doctor exists...I haven't even tried very hard.

Because my dad, like most people, is gonna believe the doctor.
I've thought I should move in with him
just so that I could secretly swap his statins for some placebos!
For now I've been having some success getting him on COQ10 or Ubiquinol,
which are may mitigate some of the damage.
And I may be able to convince my dad's doctor to agree to a trial period of a few months
without the statin
to see if my dad's memory improves....