Iron

[bornamachine]

I disagree with this. If a ferritin of 70+ is needed to optimize hair growth, that strongly suggests to me that the average person should not be targeting a ferritin under 70. You can see that OP seems to be having problems even with a ferritin as high as 60, the upper range of what you're saying is optimal for active people. I think all this advice to donate blood one encounters on alternative medicine sites is dangerous. Check your ferritin and if it's over 100 then go ahead and donate once, wait a few months, see how you feel.

Thank you exactly what I just wrote about, real world experience, even legit somewhat alternative sites that recommend 25-75 range have no bearing for us if at those levels we can't function or a low level make you hypo with hair loss or insulin resistance

 

[dbh25]

I think all this advice to donate blood one encounters on alternative medicine sites is dangerous. Check your ferritin and if it's over 100 then go ahead and donate once, wait a few months, see how you feel.

Thank you.
There's definitely a lower limit you don't want to find. It's bloody AWFUL, I was there for a time before my body crashed. I couldn't sleep but was exhausted at the same time. I hadn't donated in over 6 months, I assumed my ferritin would come up, but it was 15 when I checked it.

 

[bornamachine]

Thank you.
There's definitely a lower limit you don't want to find. It's bloody AWFUL, I was there for a time before my body crashed. I couldn't sleep but was exhausted at the same time. I hadn't donated in over 6 months, I assumed my ferritin would come, but it was 15 when I checked it.

I've watched a video from easwest healing the ray peat minded folks, that guy had a lady with low iron levels and tried a good approach liver and all for a while and they would not budge the level but once he got her on pills it actually went up, also it seems that they are wising up to the improtantce of iron from his other vids, he doesn't correct himself but does point to the need for iron, this is one thing that gets me about peat, brilliant guy but could he give the people something to go off of? The broad spectrum advuce seems to hurt people, for example his iron article, interesting read, but how much iron were those African folks given to cause them to develop desease? What would a good level be for an average adult? Stuff like that, if he knows but again it's probably hard to know everything, butttt... If iron is essential, lack thereof causes hypothyroidism then you keep it low with coffee and avoiding C with meat and all, at the same type try to prop your thyroid by taking cytomel or whatknow, isn't that a completely flawed way to go about it if you could just fix the iron level from the get go?

 

[dbh25]

Trial and error. But I caution people about blood donation. Some people may feel great with a ferritin of 25. I'm not one of these people. People should understand, if you are low for too long, bad things happen. I'm going with a target of 80, and then 1 donation / year.

 

[Mito]

Can we have real people with real world experience post

Chris Masterjohn has done a lot of research on iron because he is at high risk for hemochromatosis and experienced iron overload in his mid 20's. (He tells his story in this podcast https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/01/27/need-manage-iron-status/ ) He recommends targeting ferritin between 60 and 140 nanograms per milliliter.

 

[bornamachine]

Chris Masterjohn has done a lot of research on iron because he is at high risk for hemochromatosis and experienced iron overload in his mid 20's. (He tells his story in this podcast https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/01/27/need-manage-iron-status/ ) He recommends targeting ferritin between 60 and 140 nanograms per milliliter.

Thanks for the link I checked it out and seems pretty interesting and informative, I will listen to his podcast tomorrow

 

[Travis]

I'm sure everyone already thinks this, but chelated iron is probably better than taking something like iron sulfate. Check out this quote:

In humans, a single clinical dose of ferrous sulfate has been shown to induce oxidative damage in healthy individuals [9]. This study extends previous reports showing iron induces enhanced lipid peroxidation in rats [8]. Using a double-lumen perfusion tube, perfusion with saline containing ferrous sulphate resulted in some fifty fold increases in lipid peroxidation as measured by thiobarbituric acid reactive substances.

Short article on iron supplements here:
Iron supplements: the quick fix with long-term consequences (find the typo!)

Here's the best image I found of iron (III) citrate showing it's presumed, 3-dimensional form:

The chelate might protect iron from redox interactions.

 

[Regina]

Chris Masterjohn has done a lot of research on iron because he is at high risk for hemochromatosis and experienced iron overload in his mid 20's. (He tells his story in this podcast https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/01/27/need-manage-iron-status/ ) He recommends targeting ferritin between 60 and 140 nanograms per milliliter.

Thx for posting this Mito.

I'm sure everyone already thinks this, but chelated iron is probably better than taking something like iron sulfate. Check out this quote:
Short article on iron supplements here:
Iron supplements: the quick fix with long-term consequences (find the typo!)

Here's the best image I found of iron (III) citrate showing it's presumed, 3-dimensional form:

The chelate might protect iron from redox interactions.

Thx!

 

[bornamachine]

So far today has been good much to my surprise, once again I hav not had a crash! I ate at 640, then a snack at about 9 then a small snack at about 1pm, one thing I noticed is that after I ate it would be harder for me to think but as time went on it became easier and easier, then when I ate again same thing happened, must be something that I ate, but the point is, for the last year for almost two that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what would happen, I would crash and not be able to think till I ate something, I don't want to jinx myself but I am under a strong assumption that something happened that day when I though I was going down, as if my body booted back into burning energy stores from fat and liver, if I wasn't I describe the sensation and scare on a mechanical level, it was something like an old abandoned diesel ship size of Titanic cranking over without your knowledge until youre right there and the engine starts cranking. Anyway, I've taken a couple small 20th of a pill doses yesterday, slept so good woke up refreshed, will start cutting back to one 1/20th dose andsy and down to zero and see if this wonderful change sticks. This brings me to my next question, if this is so fundamental in our health, then why hasn't anyone anyone! Written a "Chemistry troubleshooting guide"? If you are man or woman I would say this is is the FIRST thing you check, if ray peats work circles around thyroid hormones which are super important, I imagine lots of people here spend years supplementing with thyroid and other hormones modifying their diets to accommodate the thyroid (often lowering iron I started would imagine) and where are they? Where are you these people who say hey I've applied this and this and this and I am healed or I am 95percent better? I don't believe that most people who get better just move on with their lifes, I've been sick for 7 years now and if I find my cure then you better believe I would come back to either praise the work because it helped me or warn others because it hurt me, time will tell, I'm optimistic don't wanna blow my own horn, if I stop crashing for real, it will will be a miracle for me.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I disagree with this. If a ferritin of 70+ is needed to optimize hair growth, that strongly suggests to me that the average person should not be targeting a ferritin under 70. You can see that OP seems to be having problems even with a ferritin as high as 60, the upper range of what you're saying is optimal for active people. I think all this advice to donate blood one encounters on alternative medicine sites is dangerous. Check your ferritin and if it's over 100 then go ahead and donate once, wait a few months, see how you feel.

Where did you see any evidence that a ferritin of 70+ is needed to optimize hair growth? I'm not aware of any such studies. Also most teens would have a ferritin level near the lower end of the range, and women will (generally) have that until they hit menopause. Those groups tend to have the least issues with hair loss, and the best hair in quality and quantity.

I agree that people shouldn't just take advice on this site or any other without doing some tests and further research. But the suggested range of 25-75 comes from Dr. E. D. Weinberg's book "Exposing the Hidden Dangers of Iron." I've also looked at the FeAST trial, and the work or Dr. Fachinni.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Can we have real people with real world experience post ie " I was at 300 ferretin donated now at 30 ferretin and feel great!" This is turning into a "I've read the studies that you should be X for elderly and X for athletes" look, like I said I donated once twice and had no negative effects but probably around the time I dropped below 100 I started to have extreme insulin resistance symptoms that I now understand are liver and thyroid connected and since iron IS a major component to make that system work I now see why lovlwering my iron basically broke the system to an extent, I've rechecked my iron and I'm at 100 now climbing back up, that being said, today is pretty amazing, since I've not crashed yet today after yesterdays scary episode I've been able to function without constantly eating, I ate at 630am and then again at 1020am, that's nearly 4 hour gap which is a feat for me, I was feeling tired and slightly hungry but could think normally!! Amazing! I'm taking hemaplex iron pill in about 2 weeks I have gone through 1.2 pills (not boxes or bottles, bit pills) total a little at a time, will see how it goes, those pills are also somewhat balanced with zinc copper selenium folate and b vitamins

Fair enough. My ferritin started at 444, and I lowered it to around 30-ish over the course of 8 months, using a combination of monthly blood donations and complementary iron lowering strategies (mainly IP6, but also focused on lowering dietary iron a bit. I never cut out red meat, but did cut it down). Over time, I noticed improved energy and mood, and also some reversal of gray hair.

One issue I had was with hemoglobin getting lower and lower. I used a Life Extension's Two Per Day and/or a B complex to boost it up when ferritin got lower. If I recall, the addition of B complex seemed to boost energy and mood at the time, too.

I didn't donate for about 4 months after I hit that low, for various reasons.

I did start donating again at that point, more like every two to three months. One time, my ferritin tested at 28, and another time at 18, and both those times, I felt no negative effects whatsoever. In fact, at 18, I might have been at the most active in my life, and felt great. I did stop donating for like 5-6 months at that point.

I was hypothyroid at 444, and on NDT at the time. If anything, thyroid symptoms improved while lowering iron. I'm still on NDT.

 

[Matt1951]

I vote for ferritin at 50-80, I won't donate gain until I hit 80. It is easy to find with a web search, coaches find their women athletes lose performance with ferritin under 50. I used to donate almost every 8 weeks. Checked ferritin after my last donation, it was at 17, hemoglobin was normal. Interestingly, I had terrible ?psoriasis? on my feet, dry and cracked not just heels, but the whole bottom of the foot. I used to try vitamins, lotions, would get some improvement, then back to bad. As my ferritin is rising, my feet are spectacularly better. Not sure if it is because of the iron, but I don't know what else it could be.

 

[bornamachine]

Have you tried to cut back or eliminate ndt as you were hitting let's say 300 200 100 50 to see the effect? Your system is being prompted up via NDTV possibly who knows? Maybe she. You got like 50-100 range you could have weaned off thyroid? What's your age gender and what's the goal with lowering so much? What is your saturation %? For me, when my iron was like 350 and saturation 67% my thyroid was really messed up, then as I donated and fell to the 150 range I felt much better it's my pre last and last donation where. I fell probably to around 40 that hypoglycemia kicked in. We all might be a little diff due to sex age and genetics but I think we are like cars, let's just say some cars can tolerate really low oil pressure and really high and not blow a seal, others are more sensitive, and iron being like oil has to be within range for that particular car, too low and you will only be able to drive up to 3k rpm without damaging the car and too high you can only drive to 3krpm without blowing the crank seal, I think iron is like that, there is an average range, and a personal range.

Fair enough. My ferritin started at 444, and I lowered it to around 30-ish over the course of 8 months, using a combination of monthly blood donations and complementary iron lowering strategies (mainly IP6, but also focused on lowering dietary iron a bit. I never cut out red meat, but did cut it down). Over time, I noticed improved energy and mood, and also some reversal of gray hair.

One issue I had was with hemoglobin getting lower and lower. I used a Life Extension's Two Per Day and/or a B complex to boost it up when ferritin got lower. If I recall, the addition of B complex seemed to boost energy and mood at the time, too.

I didn't donate for about 4 months after I hit that low, for various reasons.

I did start donating again at that point, more like every two to three months. One time, my ferritin tested at 28, and another time at 18, and both those times, I felt no negative effects whatsoever. In fact, at 18, I might have been at the most active in my life, and felt great. I did stop donating for like 5-6 months at that point.

I was hypothyroid at 444, and on NDT at the time. If anything, thyroid symptoms improved while lowering iron. I'm still on NDT.

 

[bornamachine]

I decided to put my tests here as it may help someone in the future.

 

[bornamachine]

My hypoglycimia symptoms started on test 8/7/15

 

[tankasnowgod]

Have you tried to cut back or eliminate ndt as you were hitting let's say 300 200 100 50 to see the effect? Your system is being prompted up via NDTV possibly who knows? Maybe she. You got like 50-100 range you could have weaned off thyroid? What's your age gender and what's the goal with lowering so much? What is your saturation %? For me, when my iron was like 350 and saturation 67% my thyroid was really messed up, then as I donated and fell to the 150 range I felt much better it's my pre last and last donation where. I fell probably to around 40 that hypoglycemia kicked in. We all might be a little diff due to sex age and genetics but I think we are like cars, let's just say some cars can tolerate really low oil pressure and really high and not blow a seal, others are more sensitive, and iron being like oil has to be within range for that particular car, too low and you will only be able to drive up to 3k rpm without damaging the car and too high you can only drive to 3krpm without blowing the crank seal, I think iron is like that, there is an average range, and a personal range.

What you wrote is very disjointed, I'll try to answer some of your questions (as I understand them), but you mixed a lot of analogies and personal experience and speculation in. I'll stick to my situation.

I used NDT cause I had classic hypo symptoms (low energy, freezing cold hands and feet, lots of excess weight). More so than iron reduction, I've noticed coconut oil, red light, and increased carbohydrate intake are more stimulatory to metabolism. Those things have let me decrease supplemental thyroid.

By the way, lowering iron is a good way to increase insulin sensitivity, and thus, better tolerate and utilize carbs. I only got semi-hypoglycemic once, and that was right after the first time I donated. That was another benefit, insulin sensitivity is way better, and I never get a carb crash anymore.

When doing iron reduction, my target was for ferritin to hit 25 on one occasion. At that point, most hemochromatosis patients are considered "de-ironed." For maintenance, I use the 25-75 range, aiming for the lower end. I didn't intend to go as low as 18, but that's why I test. Hemoglobin has usually been in the 14-16 range. Maybe that's why I've always felt good, I always thought that was the most important number to keep high.

When I started iron lowering, I think I was 36 or so. I'm 41 now, male.

I don't measure TSAT too much, but it's been under 40% everytime I've measured.

When doing this, I used the research of Weinberg and Facchini as a guide, along with the writings of Anthony Colpo, and of course, objective feedback in the form of labs, and subjective feedback as well. It's actually recommended you keep a diary during de-ironing, as problems can arise (and often be easily corrected) during the process.

 

[Travis]

A little study linking ferritin levels and hair growth here: Serum Ferritin and Vitamin D in Female Hair Loss: Do They Play a Role?

I just stumbled across this while reading about vitamin D. You can see (table 2) that ferritin is correlated with hair growth, but vitamin D even more so.

 

[bornamachine]

Thanks for that complimentary critique. It seems that low iron levels work for you and you are quite healthy, why that can be the case for one but not the other I don't know. You started de-ironing while your ferretin was very high if I recall around 400, you were on ndt at that time, your iron is now very low around 25 let's say, and you are still on ndt, have you at some point tried to get off ndt let's say when your levels got to around 100 just o see how you would feel? All in all, your results of low iron are completely opposite of what I experienced, why that is I do not know.

What you wrote is very disjointed, I'll try to answer some of your questions (as I understand them), but you mixed a lot of analogies and personal experience and speculation in. I'll stick to my situation.

I used NDT cause I had classic hypo symptoms (low energy, freezing cold hands and feet, lots of excess weight). More so than iron reduction, I've noticed coconut oil, red light, and increased carbohydrate intake are more stimulatory to metabolism. Those things have let me decrease supplemental thyroid.

By the way, lowering iron is a good way to increase insulin sensitivity, and thus, better tolerate and utilize carbs. I only got semi-hypoglycemic once, and that was right after the first time I donated. That was another benefit, insulin sensitivity is way better, and I never get a carb crash anymore.

When doing iron reduction, my target was for ferritin to hit 25 on one occasion. At that point, most hemochromatosis patients are considered "de-ironed." For maintenance, I use the 25-75 range, aiming for the lower end. I didn't intend to go as low as 18, but that's why I test. Hemoglobin has usually been in the 14-16 range. Maybe that's why I've always felt good, I always thought that was the most important number to keep high.

When I started iron lowering, I think I was 36 or so. I'm 41 now, male.

I don't measure TSAT too much, but it's been under 40% everytime I've measured.

When doing this, I used the research of Weinberg and Facchini as a guide, along with the writings of Anthony Colpo, and of course, objective feedback in the form of labs, and subjective feedback as well. It's actually recommended you keep a diary during de-ironing, as problems can arise (and often be easily corrected) during the process.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Thanks for that complimentary critique. It seems that low iron levels work for you and you are quite healthy, why that can be the case for one but not the other I don't know. You started de-ironing while your ferretin was very high if I recall around 400, you were on ndt at that time, your iron is now very low around 25 let's say, and you are still on ndt, have you at some point tried to get off ndt let's say when your levels got to around 100 just o see how you would feel? All in all, your results of low iron are completely opposite of what I experienced, why that is I do not know.

I didn't change my NDT dose, so I don't know. It's possible, but I haven't seen a lot of in depth research in regards to lower iron levels and thyroid.

If anything, I would suspect in your case that Hemoglobin levels dipped too low. You didn't state what they were at any point. Anemia can be absolutely brutal, and could either seem similar, or be a cause of, hypothyroid symptoms.

 

[bornamachine]

Every time I went to donate they checked my hemoglobin level and I was always goods, same with hospital visits, always good and never low. Actually donating blood made it easier to breathe as I had episodes before donating where I couldn't get enough oxygen, or I couldn't even take a full deep breath, maybe half or a third when it would get really bad usually closer to night, those symptoms vanished after the first couple donations.

I didn't change my NDT dose, so I don't know. It's possible, but I haven't seen a lot of in depth research in regards to lower iron levels and thyroid.

If anything, I would suspect in your case that Hemoglobin levels dipped too low. You didn't state what they were at any point. Anemia can be absolutely brutal, and could either seem similar, or be a cause of, hypothyroid symptoms.