Iron drives heart failure by fattening the heart; iron chelators may prevent/cure

eimearrose

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Sep 22, 2012
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It's probably not just the beef, but also the lack of bloodletting and intestinal worms and fortified iron you ate (and if you are a male, being male) that got it to that range. Not saying that having intestinal worms is a good thing, but there were lots of ways iron was kept lower in the past, in more primitive cultures, and even in modern ones. Worms weren't really eliminated in most industrialized countries until about the 1960's.

Take a look at the graph below-

View attachment 44300

So, we have the combination of higher iron intakes (maybe the highest of all time, due to supplements and fortification), along with fewer ways to "lose" iron, with the elimination of things like intestinal worms and being more sedentary and such. It's no shock that ferritin levels (especially in men) are much higher today.


It depends on the source, and who you believe.

The "lab range" for ferritin is about 30-400. I've heard some suggest it should be more like 30-200.

In the Zacharsky studies, they found a dramatic reduction in heart disease (and cancer, and all cause mortality) when they got ferritin below 90. Personally, I think the target range should be between 25-75, and really, kept at the lower end of that range (maybe like 30-40). There are a lot of studies (by the likes of Zacharsky and Fachinni) that suggest this is a good place to prevent many degenerative diseases. Although I have had ferritin test as low as 18, and didn't notice any negatives. When lowering ferritin from 444 to that near deficiency range (around 30-50), I noticed benefits like improved mood and energy, as well.
I'm not sure ferritin is such a good measure of iron stores. I see it more as an inflammatory marker, so in high iron situation, it could be elevated (but can be elevated for other reasons too). It is after all just a protein. For myself, I have been treated for low ferritin for years. With ridiculous amounts of oral iron I can get ferritin up to 50, and then my serum iron gets too high. So essentially my body is not making enough ferritin to lock the iron away. In haemochromatosis, the elevated ferritin is probably a sign the body is working hard to sequester the iron away. Mine cannot do that, and I realised only too late (and after an iron infusion that brought my ferritin up to 400 and very quickly down to mid 20s and very recently back down to 5) that iron is not my issue, but probably poor ferritin production (ie the protective protein). Most likely crappy liver and hypothyroidism. I'm interested to see in a couple of months if I can raise ferritin to a reasonable range with consistent thyroid.
Anyway, that was a long winded way of saying I think we need to think of iron and ferritin a bit more independently, especially in the low cases. And a high ferritin might not be accurately showing just how bad one's iron overload is- a 400 could just be maxed out ferritin production and the rest is trapped in tissue, and theoretically the 400 ferritin person could be worse off than someone with a ferritin of 900.
 

redsun

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Wouldn’t this mean condemning the consumption of meat as a food? Or am I being too reductionist here. And what about the fact that heme iron is needed for red blood cells? @redsun @haidut
Heart attacks where there is also bleeding within the heart, iron from the RBC causes fat build-up in the heart and if they use a iron chelator this reduced the fat build-up. This is the context. RBC don't cause heart attacks obviously. The iron from them RBC a heart attack where bleeding was involved can lead to heart failure. Thats the point.

What actually causes heart attack is a different issue, though having iron overload for example is also known to cause heart problems. But this is not the same thing as having a heart attack which leads to bleeding and iron depositing in the heart where its not supposed to.
 
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tankasnowgod

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I'm not sure ferritin is such a good measure of iron stores. I see it more as an inflammatory marker, so in high iron situation, it could be elevated (but can be elevated for other reasons too). It is after all just a protein. For myself, I have been treated for low ferritin for years. With ridiculous amounts of oral iron I can get ferritin up to 50, and then my serum iron gets too high. So essentially my body is not making enough ferritin to lock the iron away. In haemochromatosis, the elevated ferritin is probably a sign the body is working hard to sequester the iron away. Mine cannot do that, and I realised only too late (and after an iron infusion that brought my ferritin up to 400 and very quickly down to mid 20s and very recently back down to 5) that iron is not my issue, but probably poor ferritin production (ie the protective protein). Most likely crappy liver and hypothyroidism. I'm interested to see in a couple of months if I can raise ferritin to a reasonable range with consistent thyroid.
Anyway, that was a long winded way of saying I think we need to think of iron and ferritin a bit more independently, especially in the low cases. And a high ferritin might not be accurately showing just how bad one's iron overload is- a 400 could just be maxed out ferritin production and the rest is trapped in tissue, and theoretically the 400 ferritin person could be worse off than someone with a ferritin of 900.
All of the iron researchers that I have seen disagree, suggesting that Ferritin is indeed the best marker for full body iron stores. E.D. Weinberg stated such in his 2004 book, "Exposing the Hidden Dangers of Iron." All acknowledge that it is also an acute phase reactant, and that there are some people for which it isn't a useful marker, but those are a small minority.

If your ferritin is testing high at certain points, I wouldn't think that would mean that your body can't make that protein. What timeframe did your ferritin go from 400 down to 20? Part of it may have been due to an initial inflammatory spike. But, if it seems to always go down (and go down rapidly), that might suggest in your case that you are having quite a loss of iron from somewhere, likely blood loss.

Have you tested for intestinal worms?
 

eimearrose

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Sep 22, 2012
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All of the iron researchers that I have seen disagree, suggesting that Ferritin is indeed the best marker for full body iron stores. E.D. Weinberg stated such in his 2004 book, "Exposing the Hidden Dangers of Iron." All acknowledge that it is also an acute phase reactant, and that there are some people for which it isn't a useful marker, but those are a small minority.

If your ferritin is testing high at certain points, I wouldn't think that would mean that your body can't make that protein. What timeframe did your ferritin go from 400 down to 20? Part of it may have been due to an initial inflammatory spike. But, if it seems to always go down (and go down rapidly), that might suggest in your case that you are having quite a loss of iron from somewhere, likely blood loss.

Have you tested for intestinal worms?
It went down in 4 weeks. I don't have worms. Been tested for everything gut related because I had pretty bad symptoms for a while. I do have heavy periods. But I only had one during that drop in ferritin. I don't think I could have lost a gram of elemental iron in half a pint of blood.
I took 130mg of elemental iron daily for months on end several times and my ferritin never got above 50.4 (the exception being two weeks after the iron infusion it was 430 and was 30 another 4 weeks later). I understand I didn't absorb all the oral iron, but enough to have serum iron outside the normal range. That was why my doctor would stop the oral treatment as I had iron overload despite pretty modest ferritin. So that's why I have doubts that ferritin is a great indicator of iron stores. In my case, I am absorbing it, yes I lose a significant amount, but I don't seem to store much in ferritin form. I think there could be a lot of people with low ferritin being treated with iron that don't need it. And the high people, I'm not sure ferritin would tell you if you have a crap tonne more hiding in your tissues.
 

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