Iron Chelation

4peatssake

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Peata said:
So is anybody up for trying leeches?
ah no.

I wouldn't necessarily do this either, but wet cupping (aka hijama) is another option.

I had fire cupping done once but didn't notice any significant improvements at the time, but my diet was a mess then.

Wet Cupping or ‘Hijama’: The Ancient Art of Healing

From Aztecs and A-list celebrities, the ancient healing practice of cupping has such an diverse fanbase and illustrious history that it’s hard to credit one culture with its conception. The practice is believed to date back to thousands of years with evidence of the method amongst medicinal traditions of the Egyptians, Chinese and Greeks. The holistic therapy consists of heating small round cups on an open flame and placing it on the skin which creates a vacuum that sucks up the skin and encourages blood flow. The most popular form of cupping in the Muslim world is ‘wet cupping’ where small incisions are made to the skin after cupping to draw out blood.

How Hijama Is Done

Wet cupping or ‘Hijama’, which comes from the Arabic word for ‘sucking’, took on particular importance in the Arab world after the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said: “Healing is in three things: in the incision of the cupper, in drinking honey, and in cauterizing with fire, but I forbid my Ummah (nation) to use cauterization.” (Al-Bukhari) Although over time the popularity of cupping has waned significantly, Muslims in the Middle East and North Africa carry out wet cupping to soothe their aches and pains till this day.

Wet cupping has been credited in the Islamic faith as a cure for various ailments such as headaches, stomach problems, poisoning and alleviating pain. As Abu Zakariya, a Hijama practitioner in the UK explains, “Hijama is like an oil change for the human body- if you compare the body to a car- you remove the old dirty (oil-blood), so the body can replenish the circulatory system with clean blood. Hijama helps to remove impurities and stimulate the bone marrow to produce new, healthier blood and increase blood circulation.”

Hijama, which is basically a combination of cupping and blood-letting, also has the added benefits of these two therapies. Cupping is widely used to treat pain and muscular aches, indigestion, colds, fever and even arthritis. Whilst blood-letting is credited with removing toxins, excess iron and excess red blood cells from the body. Leeches which were used in the past to aid blood letting appear to have made a comeback in recent times as they are now used in hospitals to clean wounds and improve blood circulation in damaged tissue.
Wet Cupping or ‘Hijama’: The Ancient Art of Healing
 

burtlancast

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4peatssake said:
Peata said:
So is anybody up for trying leeches?
ah no.

I wouldn't necessarily do this either, but wet cupping (aka hijama) is another option.

Wet Cupping or ‘Hijama’: The Ancient Art of Healing

Well, looks like we have a winner here. :)

[BBvideo 560,340:yufwlfw9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RkW8FOYN8g[/BBvideo]

It seems great because one can do it on any part of the body, and doesn't require puncturing ( = damaging) a vein.

If one can draw at least 250 ml on the same spot, that's a keeper.
 

Peata

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Wow, I've truly seen everything now.

Pros - Looks simple enough once you get the cupping device (could use diabetic lancets probably). If cup is reusable or inexpensive, that would save money, but it seems like you'd want to get a new, sterile one each time.

Cons - I would probably get permanent scarring from it.

It would be interesting to hear from someone on the forum if they try any of these methods. Let us know your experiences/adventures.
 

haidut

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There is no need for using leeches, although if someone is feeling up to it by all means go for it:):
To chelate iron you can use commonly available supplements like aspirin and thiamine (vitamin B1). I believe Ray Peat has written about aspirin lowering iron, and as far as thiamine is concerned just use Google or PubMed and search for "thiamine iron chelation" or "benfotiamine iron chelation" or "fursultiamine iron chelation". Of the three thiamines, the last one (also known TTFD) is what seems to work best since it has 2 sulphur atoms. However, I've seen studies saying the other thiamine analogs work as well. I am too tired to search for studies right now, but anyone interested can easily find them using Google and/or PubMed.
Incidentally, there are a LOT of studies on using thiamine for lead and/or aluminum chelation (lowering both metals Ray would recommend I think) and in fact it is approved as such chelator in some European countries.
 

Peata

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Interesting, as I just started supplementing with B1 recently.
 

johns74

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Important Preface: I'm not knowledgeable about this subject, but it seems important to explore the idea of removing iron. Hope others will expand/criticize some points.

edwardBe said:
Second, you need at least an 18 gauge needle, a 16 gauge is even better, both of which are hard to buy, unless you go to a livestock supply store, and you need to look like you are involved with livestock or they may not sell them to you. This size needle is necessary to get a decent flow rate without having to pull hard on the syringe attached to the needle and collapsing the vein. Sticking yourself with a 18 or 16 gauge needle is no fun, I can assure you after using them to cannulate the fistulas and grafts of diaysis patients for many years. They get used to it, but many of them still insist on local anesthesia beforehand.

Third, there is no such thing as a 450 - 500 ml. syringe, so you need to pipe the blood into a bag like they do when you donate blood or else have some way of disconnecting the syringe, emptying it and then reconnecting it without letting your blood run out the back of the needle. it would be difficult legally to buy the kind of sterile tubing you need to connect to the back of the needle, and the kind of sterile bag to collect the blood, I suspect. The biggest syringe I've seen with a luer lock connector is 50 ml, which also is only available at a livestock supply place. That size syringe means drawing the syringe full of blood 9 or 10 times to get the 450 to 500 mls you want to lose. If you try to do that, the blood in the needle will clot at some point, as will the blood in the syringe, unless you anti-coagulate yourself with heparin or coumadin first which is dangerous by itself. Even the blood in the tubing may clot even if you can get the tubing. The tubing in blood donation places is pre-treated to keep the blood from clotting, as is the collection bag.

50 ml might be enough. You could do that once every four days, and in little more than a month you would have removed 500 ml. Doing it this way, with smaller amounts at a time, means that your hemoglobin doesn't drastically drop like in a 500 ml donation. After one 50 ml extraction, it drops a little, but because it recovers between the 4-day-spaced sessions, it never becomes nearly as low as with a 500 ml donation, letting you feel better and avoid the fatigue some people feel after giving 500 ml of blood. But in the end, you still remove about the same amount of iron. You could even do it once every 7 days, that would result in a removal of about 200 ml per month.

What I want to ask the experts here, is doing 10 extractions of 50 ml in 40 days too tough on your veins?

Another thing one could do to increase removal of toxins other than iron is having a raw carrot 30 minutes before the extraction, because that moves toxins from the gallbladder to the blood (toxins accumulate in the gallbladder, the carrot triggers the release of bile from the gallbladder, some of the toxins are excreted but a part is reabsorbed, which goes back to the blood which will be extracted).

Another possible advantage that should be explored is whether the big 500 ml extraction triggers a higher absorption of iron for days or weeks after the extraction.
 

Milky

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Someone on another topic mentioned flossing your teeth more often.
 

YuraCZ

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It's not that simple.

First, the last time I checked, you can't walk into a pharmacy and buy syringes and needles without a prescription, in the US, anyway. They assume that you are going to use the needles and syringes to inject drugs, for some reason, and all they will sell you is an insulin syringe which holds 1 ml at the most and has a 27 (tiny) gauge needle that is usually permanently attached to the end.

Second, you need at least an 18 gauge needle, a 16 gauge is even better, both of which are hard to buy, unless you go to a livestock supply store, and you need to look like you are involved with livestock or they may not sell them to you. This size needle is necessary to get a decent flow rate without having to pull hard on the syringe attached to the needle and collapsing the vein. Sticking yourself with a 18 or 16 gauge needle is no fun, I can assure you after using them to cannulate the fistulas and grafts of diaysis patients for many years. They get used to it, but many of them still insist on local anesthesia beforehand.

Third, there is no such thing as a 450 - 500 ml. syringe, so you need to pipe the blood into a bag like they do when you donate blood or else have some way of disconnecting the syringe, emptying it and then reconnecting it without letting your blood run out the back of the needle. it would be difficult legally to buy the kind of sterile tubing you need to connect to the back of the needle, and the kind of sterile bag to collect the blood, I suspect. The biggest syringe I've seen with a luer lock connector is 50 ml, which also is only available at a livestock supply place. That size syringe means drawing the syringe full of blood 9 or 10 times to get the 450 to 500 mls you want to lose. If you try to do that, the blood in the needle will clot at some point, as will the blood in the syringe, unless you anti-coagulate yourself with heparin or coumadin first which is dangerous by itself. Even the blood in the tubing may clot even if you can get the tubing. The tubing in blood donation places is pre-treated to keep the blood from clotting, as is the collection bag.

Fourth, all this needs to be done using sterile technique so that you don't give yourself an abscess at the puncture site. This means swabbing your skin with betadine or something similar and letting it sit for a few minutes beforehand.

Finally, and this is by no means all of the little complications, it is illegal to dispose of blood, syringes and needles without incinerating them.

All this hot air is based on decades of experience with hemodialysis patients both in clinics and hospitals, I haven't done any of this for a couple of years, but this is not something that changes quickly. Of course, things may different where you live, but do a lot of research before you try to phlebotomize yourself at home. If you know a nurse, ask them how you could do it. She/he may not be willing to help you for legal reasons and will probably think you are nuts, since this is well outside their training. Sort of like asking a dietitian about a good source of saturated fat.

Are you serious? It really isn't that hard lol. Everything what you need is fat needle, infusion tube and some disinfection. Alcohol swab. If I can do it. Everybody can do it...
 

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tankasnowgod

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I can't donate blood because I'm anemic, ha ha.

Or should I say ironically. Har har.

I think the way it works is I need a note from my doctor for a "therapeutic phlebotomy". Still I made an appointment to get my serum ferritin tested -- which has never been done, ever. Even though I was told to take craploads of iron. So maybe if it's bad enough I'll be able to do that.

I am not sure about the inositol. It's a phytate; RP does not care for these generally I don't think. The problem is that it chelates all the minerals including calcium and magnesium and is rendered slightly inert by vitamin c. So in order to chelate iron I would have to really amp up the other minerals without ever really being sure exactly what I was doing, and in the meantime limit all sources of vitamin c.

Although I wonder what would happen if I did that as a protocol four or five days. I guess I'd either feel all kinds of better, or die.

If you are anemic, you should not donate blood, period. Furthermore, no competent doctor would give you a prescription for a therapeutic phlebotomy. If your hemoglobin isn't high enough, you can run into some very serious problems very quickly by losing blood.

Having said that, there are several conditions where anemia can happen even when body iron stores are high. Some are fairly serious (like thalessemia and sickle cell), and some are fairly easily corrected. For example, pernicious anemia can be resolved by a B complex or B12 tablets.

If you're suffering from anemia, you should figure out what kind, and treat that. If you are interested in lowering iron, you should first confirm that your iron is high by testing hemoglobin, TSAT and ferritin.

If you do have one of the more serious anemias that the B vitamins can't resolve, and you also have high iron stores, you will probably have to undergo chelation therapy.
 

Pet Peeve

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Are you serious? It really isn't that hard lol. Everything what you need is fat needle, infusion tube and some disinfection. Alcohol swab. If I can do it. Everybody can do it...

Damn, you really are dedicated to good health. I'm studying to become a nurse so I might get there myself sometime, but holy moly
 

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