Iron Chelation

Discussion in 'Messtafarian' started by messtafarian, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. messtafarian

    messtafarian Member

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    The wildly different physical state I found myself in after bleeding pretty profusely for a couple days now has me wanting to get more of this iron I took this year out of me as fast as possible. I've been reading about iron chelators; found one article on pubmed regarding chlorogenic acid which is common in coffee in black tea. There is also green tea -- ECCG seems to do something but I am thinking this is not enough.

    There are a couple of prescription meds I could ask for that the doctor will tell me I can't have and I'm not sure if I want to mess with an iron binding drug on my own.

    Are there any other iron chelators I am missing?
     
  2. Peata

    Peata Member

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    I've read good things about inositol (IP6) for iron removal.
     
  3. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    What about donating blood?
     
  4. OP
    messtafarian

    messtafarian Member

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    I can't donate blood because I'm anemic, ha ha.

    Or should I say ironically. Har har.

    I think the way it works is I need a note from my doctor for a "therapeutic phlebotomy". Still I made an appointment to get my serum ferritin tested -- which has never been done, ever. Even though I was told to take craploads of iron. So maybe if it's bad enough I'll be able to do that.

    I am not sure about the inositol. It's a phytate; RP does not care for these generally I don't think. The problem is that it chelates all the minerals including calcium and magnesium and is rendered slightly inert by vitamin c. So in order to chelate iron I would have to really amp up the other minerals without ever really being sure exactly what I was doing, and in the meantime limit all sources of vitamin c.

    Although I wonder what would happen if I did that as a protocol four or five days. I guess I'd either feel all kinds of better, or die.
     
  5. local

    local New Member

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    ip6 is good as is cocurcumin from Ayesh Labs
     
  6. Peata

    Peata Member

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    Could try taking IP6 apart from meals. What I've read says at least 30 min. before eating, with water to carry it swiftly through you.
     
  7. Peata

    Peata Member

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    I did not know curcumin was an iron chelator until you said something. What CAN'T this stuff do. I've taken it off and on for years, just recently started back on it to knock down cystic acne.

    Iron chelation in the biological activity of curcumin.
    Jiao Y, Wilkinson J 4th, Christine Pietsch E, Buss JL, Wang W, Planalp R, Torti FM, Torti SV.
    Source

    Department of Cancer Biology, Wake Forest University Health Sciences, Winston-Salem, NC 27157, USA.
    Abstract

    Curcumin is among the more successful chemopreventive compounds investigated in recent years, and is currently in human trials to prevent cancer. The mechanism of action of curcumin is complex and likely multifactorial. We have made the unexpected observation that curcumin strikingly modulates proteins of iron metabolism in cells and in tissues, suggesting that curcumin has properties of an iron chelator. Curcumin increased mRNA levels of ferritin and GSTalpha in cultured liver cells. Unexpectedly, however, although levels of GSTalpha protein increased in parallel with mRNA levels in response to curcumin, levels of ferritin protein declined. Since iron chelators repress ferritin translation, we considered that curcumin may act as an iron chelator. To test this hypothesis, we measured the effect of curcumin on transferrin receptor 1, a protein stabilized under conditions of iron limitation, as well as the ability of curcumin to activate iron regulatory proteins (IRPs). Both transferrin receptor 1 and activated IRP, indicators of iron depletion, increased in response to curcumin. Consistent with the hypothesis that curcumin acts as an iron chelator, mice that were fed diets supplemented with curcumin exhibited a decline in levels of ferritin protein in the liver. These results suggest that iron chelation may be an additional mode of action of curcumin.

    PMID:
    16545682
    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
     
  8. OP
    messtafarian

    messtafarian Member

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    Interesting.

    Peata I did a quick search on curcumin and turmeric and turned up the fact that curcumin is estrogenic. This is where this all gets tricky, because some of the neatest substances in the world are also phytoestrogens. It's confusing. Do you take the wonderdrug because of it's magnificient properties or do you leave it alone because it acts as an estrogen?

    Turmeric has a great profile. I also found, interestingly, that there isn't much Alzheimer's in India and this is something the faceless researchers are connecting to curcumin -- that gibes with the fact that it is an iron chelator. But...does it oppose progesterone and thyroid?
     
  9. Peata

    Peata Member

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    Curcumin/turmeric is one of those things I've read conflicting info on about being estrogenic. (Kinda like another substance that I read about that either raises serotonin or lowers it, depending on what you read.) It gets confusing.

    Here's what Mittir said recently when I asked him/her about it:

    RP never said anything about turmeric. But he explicitly talked about a toxicity report on black
    pepper, it is a fruit with seed. I believe he avoids all spices.
    But i used turmeric for several years before starting RP and still do occasionally.
    It helps a lot with inflammation. Turmeric spice comes from the root of a plant. RP commented that
    roots are safer than leaves and seeds. I think most spices are from seeds or leaves.
    I have seen some articles on turmeric and it's amazing health benefits.
    i do not remember reading any where turmeric being estrogenic.


    from examine.com:

    In regards to possible anti-estrogen effects, the lack of inhibition on aromatase[170] but potential to reduce catalytic activity of aromatase[171] suggests some interactions may exist at this stage. One study comparing normal rats versus a Menopausal model (ovariectomized) noted that 10mg/kg oral ingestion in the normal mice was able to reduce circulating estrogen levels.[172]

    100nM of Curcumin is able to act as an agonist at estrogen receptors in MCF7 breast cancer cells, but has low activation of target genes relative to estradiol, although more potent than Quercetin and Enterolactone (from Sesamin).[173] It is possible that Curcumin may act as a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) and compete for the more potent estradiol, as it has been noted to reduce estrogen-induced cell proliferation elsewhere (was not tied directly to the estrogen receptor in this study).[174]


    But then it goes on...

    A pegylated curcumin derivative (similar bioactivity, designed for ingections) at 500mg in rats is able to exert estrogenic effects as assessed by sex organs (uterine changes indicative of estrogenicity in females).[169]
     
  10. OP
    messtafarian

    messtafarian Member

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    Right. The reason I'm hesitant to use a compound like this is because that's exactly what the research says about the satanic soy. It is a *selective* estrogen compound that "competes" at receptor sites. This is what they've been saying for years while the stuff destroys people's endocrine systems.

    I think turmeric *might* be different though simply because it is not -- as far as I know -- a goitrogen - but anything that stimulates the uterus makes me suspicious. Then again, I'm a little hypervigilant these days. I'm suspicious of *air* at this point.
     
  11. Peata

    Peata Member

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    A couple weeks ago I asked Ray Peat some questions about Inositol, and this was his reply:

    I think it's safe in doses of a few grams/day; it seems to have some protective effects, for example against cataracts (which are promoted by estrogen), but I don't know what its exact mechanisms are.
     
  12. OP
    messtafarian

    messtafarian Member

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    Thank you Peata!
     
  13. edwardBe

    edwardBe Member

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    For what it's worth, this is from an herbalist friend: "In the presence of anemia,the best chelating agent for iron is Iodoral, which is a mix of potassium iodide and inorganic iodine total 12.5 mg, which is a lot. All phenolic compounds chelate: curcumin, green tea, resveratrol; seaweeds are also good. Natural compounds are more selective and tend not to drain the minerals we do need, which is very different from pharmaceuticals. If she uses iodoral, she must be careful, it is very effective and she could get over burdened with the results of elimination of toxic material."

    Hope this helps.
     
  14. OP
    messtafarian

    messtafarian Member

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    Very interesting!

    Thank you!
     
  15. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    Maybe your best option to reduce iron would still be bloodletting; i believe anyone can do it itself with a little bit of training.
     
  16. edwardBe

    edwardBe Member

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    Yes, maybe about 150 - 200 ml max every other month might be tolerated unless your anemia is really severe.

    I've thought about doing that myself. Since I was in the UK during the BSE scare, 1997 - 2002, the blood banks won't allow me to donate. In view of what RP says about prions, this seems silly.

    Seems like it might be difficult to buy the apparatus.
     
  17. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    I have thought about doing it myself.
     
  18. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    Apparatus ??

    You just need a seringe and it's needle; it's free to buy and dirt cheap in any pharmacy.

    Here's an interesting article about blood letting i've just found:

     
  19. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Thats a really great article, burt!

    A lot in that article is inline with Ray Peat.
     
  20. jyb

    jyb Member

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    @ Charlie: I've also thought about whether increasing blood removal in some way would be beneficial, but isn't regular blood donation every 2-3 months enough? I mean if you follow a RP diet with measures to limit iron, you won't get much in, while blood donation probably removes a higher amount each time, so that if you do it for a few years, you're sure to bring it down to an optimal level. Especially if you are young and didn't have that much iron saturating your tissues yet.

    Actually a good rule of thumb would be to know how much they removed in that study over all sessions.
     
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