Iron Chelation

messtafarian

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The wildly different physical state I found myself in after bleeding pretty profusely for a couple days now has me wanting to get more of this iron I took this year out of me as fast as possible. I've been reading about iron chelators; found one article on pubmed regarding chlorogenic acid which is common in coffee in black tea. There is also green tea -- ECCG seems to do something but I am thinking this is not enough.

There are a couple of prescription meds I could ask for that the doctor will tell me I can't have and I'm not sure if I want to mess with an iron binding drug on my own.

Are there any other iron chelators I am missing?
 

Peata

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I've read good things about inositol (IP6) for iron removal.
 

charlie

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What about donating blood?
 

messtafarian

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I can't donate blood because I'm anemic, ha ha.

Or should I say ironically. Har har.

I think the way it works is I need a note from my doctor for a "therapeutic phlebotomy". Still I made an appointment to get my serum ferritin tested -- which has never been done, ever. Even though I was told to take craploads of iron. So maybe if it's bad enough I'll be able to do that.

I am not sure about the inositol. It's a phytate; RP does not care for these generally I don't think. The problem is that it chelates all the minerals including calcium and magnesium and is rendered slightly inert by vitamin c. So in order to chelate iron I would have to really amp up the other minerals without ever really being sure exactly what I was doing, and in the meantime limit all sources of vitamin c.

Although I wonder what would happen if I did that as a protocol four or five days. I guess I'd either feel all kinds of better, or die.
 

Peata

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Could try taking IP6 apart from meals. What I've read says at least 30 min. before eating, with water to carry it swiftly through you.
 

Peata

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local said:
ip6 is good as is cocurcumin from Ayesh Labs

I did not know curcumin was an iron chelator until you said something. What CAN'T this stuff do. I've taken it off and on for years, just recently started back on it to knock down cystic acne.

Iron chelation in the biological activity of curcumin.
Jiao Y, Wilkinson J 4th, Christine Pietsch E, Buss JL, Wang W, Planalp R, Torti FM, Torti SV.
Source

Department of Cancer Biology, Wake Forest University Health Sciences, Winston-Salem, NC 27157, USA.
Abstract

Curcumin is among the more successful chemopreventive compounds investigated in recent years, and is currently in human trials to prevent cancer. The mechanism of action of curcumin is complex and likely multifactorial. We have made the unexpected observation that curcumin strikingly modulates proteins of iron metabolism in cells and in tissues, suggesting that curcumin has properties of an iron chelator. Curcumin increased mRNA levels of ferritin and GSTalpha in cultured liver cells. Unexpectedly, however, although levels of GSTalpha protein increased in parallel with mRNA levels in response to curcumin, levels of ferritin protein declined. Since iron chelators repress ferritin translation, we considered that curcumin may act as an iron chelator. To test this hypothesis, we measured the effect of curcumin on transferrin receptor 1, a protein stabilized under conditions of iron limitation, as well as the ability of curcumin to activate iron regulatory proteins (IRPs). Both transferrin receptor 1 and activated IRP, indicators of iron depletion, increased in response to curcumin. Consistent with the hypothesis that curcumin acts as an iron chelator, mice that were fed diets supplemented with curcumin exhibited a decline in levels of ferritin protein in the liver. These results suggest that iron chelation may be an additional mode of action of curcumin.

PMID:
16545682
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 

messtafarian

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Interesting.

Peata I did a quick search on curcumin and turmeric and turned up the fact that curcumin is estrogenic. This is where this all gets tricky, because some of the neatest substances in the world are also phytoestrogens. It's confusing. Do you take the wonderdrug because of it's magnificient properties or do you leave it alone because it acts as an estrogen?

Turmeric has a great profile. I also found, interestingly, that there isn't much Alzheimer's in India and this is something the faceless researchers are connecting to curcumin -- that gibes with the fact that it is an iron chelator. But...does it oppose progesterone and thyroid?
 

Peata

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Curcumin/turmeric is one of those things I've read conflicting info on about being estrogenic. (Kinda like another substance that I read about that either raises serotonin or lowers it, depending on what you read.) It gets confusing.

Here's what Mittir said recently when I asked him/her about it:

RP never said anything about turmeric. But he explicitly talked about a toxicity report on black
pepper, it is a fruit with seed. I believe he avoids all spices.
But i used turmeric for several years before starting RP and still do occasionally.
It helps a lot with inflammation. Turmeric spice comes from the root of a plant. RP commented that
roots are safer than leaves and seeds. I think most spices are from seeds or leaves.
I have seen some articles on turmeric and it's amazing health benefits.
i do not remember reading any where turmeric being estrogenic.


from examine.com:

In regards to possible anti-estrogen effects, the lack of inhibition on aromatase[170] but potential to reduce catalytic activity of aromatase[171] suggests some interactions may exist at this stage. One study comparing normal rats versus a Menopausal model (ovariectomized) noted that 10mg/kg oral ingestion in the normal mice was able to reduce circulating estrogen levels.[172]

100nM of Curcumin is able to act as an agonist at estrogen receptors in MCF7 breast cancer cells, but has low activation of target genes relative to estradiol, although more potent than Quercetin and Enterolactone (from Sesamin).[173] It is possible that Curcumin may act as a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) and compete for the more potent estradiol, as it has been noted to reduce estrogen-induced cell proliferation elsewhere (was not tied directly to the estrogen receptor in this study).[174]


But then it goes on...

A pegylated curcumin derivative (similar bioactivity, designed for ingections) at 500mg in rats is able to exert estrogenic effects as assessed by sex organs (uterine changes indicative of estrogenicity in females).[169]
 

messtafarian

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Right. The reason I'm hesitant to use a compound like this is because that's exactly what the research says about the satanic soy. It is a *selective* estrogen compound that "competes" at receptor sites. This is what they've been saying for years while the stuff destroys people's endocrine systems.

I think turmeric *might* be different though simply because it is not -- as far as I know -- a goitrogen - but anything that stimulates the uterus makes me suspicious. Then again, I'm a little hypervigilant these days. I'm suspicious of *air* at this point.
 

Peata

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messtafarian said:
I am not sure about the inositol. It's a phytate; RP does not care for these generally I don't think. The problem is that it chelates all the minerals including calcium and magnesium and is rendered slightly inert by vitamin c. So in order to chelate iron I would have to really amp up the other minerals without ever really being sure exactly what I was doing, and in the meantime limit all sources of vitamin c.

Although I wonder what would happen if I did that as a protocol four or five days. I guess I'd either feel all kinds of better, or die.

A couple weeks ago I asked Ray Peat some questions about Inositol, and this was his reply:

I think it's safe in doses of a few grams/day; it seems to have some protective effects, for example against cataracts (which are promoted by estrogen), but I don't know what its exact mechanisms are.
 

edwardBe

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For what it's worth, this is from an herbalist friend: "In the presence of anemia,the best chelating agent for iron is Iodoral, which is a mix of potassium iodide and inorganic iodine total 12.5 mg, which is a lot. All phenolic compounds chelate: curcumin, green tea, resveratrol; seaweeds are also good. Natural compounds are more selective and tend not to drain the minerals we do need, which is very different from pharmaceuticals. If she uses iodoral, she must be careful, it is very effective and she could get over burdened with the results of elimination of toxic material."

Hope this helps.
 

burtlancast

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Maybe your best option to reduce iron would still be bloodletting; i believe anyone can do it itself with a little bit of training.
 

edwardBe

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burtlancast said:
Maybe your best option to reduce iron would still be bloodletting; i believe anyone can do it itself with a little bit of training.
Yes, maybe about 150 - 200 ml max every other month might be tolerated unless your anemia is really severe.

I've thought about doing that myself. Since I was in the UK during the BSE scare, 1997 - 2002, the blood banks won't allow me to donate. In view of what RP says about prions, this seems silly.

Seems like it might be difficult to buy the apparatus.
 

charlie

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I have thought about doing it myself.
 

burtlancast

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edwardBe said:
Seems like it might be difficult to buy the apparatus.

Apparatus ??

You just need a seringe and it's needle; it's free to buy and dirt cheap in any pharmacy.

Here's an interesting article about blood letting i've just found:

Can draining blood cut cholesterol and ward off cancer ?


There may soon come a day when a visit to the GP involves having blood drained from your body — not for a blood test but to help reduce your risk of disease.

It seems astonishing, but bloodletting — long-regarded as a gruesome and misguided practice and largely abandoned since Victorian times — is now emerging as a possible way of reducing blood pressure and cholesterol levels, and even preventing cancer.

Meanwhile, a form of bloodletting is being used in NHS hospitals to treat bowel conditions such as ulcerative colitis.
A study of 60 overweight people found that bloodletting reduced blood pressure, as well as levels of 'bad' LDL cholesterol and increased 'good' HDL cholesterol

A study of 60 overweight people found that bloodletting reduced blood pressure, as well as levels of 'bad' LDL cholesterol and increased 'good' HDL cholesterol

For centuries bloodletting was performed in order to reduce the risk of illness, explains Dr Lindsey Fitzharris, a medical historian from Queen Mary, University of London.

‘The thinking was that too much blood in the system could lead to sickness.

'Bloodletting came to be expected — rather like people expect antibiotics when they go to the doctor today.’

Today, bloodletting is regarded more as a possible preventative than a treatment.

Earlier this year a study of 60 overweight people found that the procedure reduced blood pressure, as well as levels of ‘bad’ LDL cholesterol and increased ‘good’ HDL cholesterol.

The results of the study, published in the journal BMC Medicine, amazed even the researchers.

As Professor Andreas Michalsen, who led the study at the Immanuel Hospital, Berlin, says: ‘We thought there might be some benefits, but not to that extent.’

Half the patients in the study had a small amount of blood removed — up to 450ml, the same as when you give blood — twice over a six-week period.

At the end, the bloodletting group had an average drop in blood pressure of 18 mmHg — ‘Double the average drop seen with medication,’ says Professor Michalsen.

The control group, which did not have the procedure, had a drop of 1mmHg.

This latest study was prompted by earlier research which suggested regular blood donors have lower cholesterol and reduced risk of heart problems and stroke.

Other studies showed that diabetics had better blood sugar control when they had blood regularly removed.

Professor Michalsen cautions that more evidence is needed. He is now planning two larger studies, with overweight patients and blood donors respectively.

So what could be causing these improvements in blood pressure and cholesterol?

Although the total blood volume would have been reduced by the bloodletting, the fact that the lower blood pressure was seen for weeks afterwards suggests more is going on, says Professor Michalsen.

He believes the evidence points to iron.
Our love of red meat means many of us have too much iron in our bodies

Our love of red meat means many of us have too much iron in our bodies

Iron is essential for many biological functions.

Without it, we wouldn’t even be able to breathe (iron is a key component of red blood cells, and allows them to pick up oxygen and transport it around the body).

But too much iron can be bad, triggering the production of harmful molecules (known as free radicals) which damage the cells.

This raises levels of inflammation throughout the body.

‘There is, of course, such a thing as too little iron, but there are even greater problems from too much iron,’ explains Professor Leo Zacharski, a haematologist at the U.S. government-funded Veterans Administration Hospital in Vermont, and the Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth College.

Our love of red meat means many of us have too much iron in our bodies, he argues, pointing to studies which suggest that most people have nearly double the ideal levels of iron in their blood.

‘We take in a little bit more iron than we need each day, and over years it accumulates and contributes to the diseases of ageing, such as vascular disease and cancer.’

Red blood cells contain large amounts of iron, so removing blood reduces iron levels in the body.

Professor Zacharski led a study, published last year in the American Heart Journal, which followed more than 1,000 people (average age 67) who had furred-up arteries.

Half the group had blood removed every six months and half didn’t.

At the end of the six-year study, the risk of heart attack and stroke was reduced in the group who regularly had blood removed.

In a separate study on the same group of people (published in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute), bloodletting was associated with a 37 per cent drop in the incidence of cancer.

However, Professor Zacharski says that diet — rather than bloodletting — may be a more practical method of reducing iron levels.

‘I advise my patients to limit red meat to once a week and reduce alcohol intake, as this increases iron absorption.’

Certain foods — tea, coffee, eggs and dairy products — can also reduce iron levels, he says.

Dr Richard Bogle, lead cardiologist at Epsom and St Helier University Hospitals NHS Trust, says the results from the recent bloodletting studies may link in with other evidence.

‘There have been some studies that suggest the blood thinner warfarin may reduce cancer risk,’ he says.

‘This may be due to the medication causing small amounts of blood to leak from the gut, which would lower iron levels.

‘Also, the higher iron levels seen in post-menopausal women could be a factor in why we see more heart problems in this group.’

He adds that more trials need to be done to establish these links.

Meanwhile, a slightly different form of bloodletting is being used to treat inflammatory bowel conditions such as ulcerative colitis and Crohn’s disease.

These conditions are thought to be caused by the immune system mistakenly attacking the bowel.

This attack is orchestrated by a type of white blood cell called neutrophils. Japanese researchers found that removing neutrophils reduced damage to the gut.

This is done using a type of sticky bead that ‘pulls’ the cells out of the blood.

Beads are put into a tube, around 10cm long. The patient’s blood is removed from one arm and then passed through this tube.

The white blood cells stick to the beads, while the rest of the blood passes through back into the patient’s other arm. It all takes around an hour.

Professor Ingvar Bjarnason, gastroenterologist from King’s College Hospital in South London, says: ‘In Japan, it is used as a first-line treatment for ulcerative colitis.

'It’s as effective as treatment with corticosteroids for severe relapse of the disease.’

In a study led by Professor Bjarnason, the relapse rate in patients who received the treatment was just 20  per cent compared with 80 per cent for those in a placebo group.

‘Removing white cells kept the majority of people well for the next six to 12 months,’ he says.

How exactly this works is still a mystery. Only around 40 per cent of the neutrophils in the body are removed, and the white cells are back to normal levels within a couple of hours.

One theory is that the existing white blood cells have been programmed to attack the gut, but the newly made cells are not as harmful.

The treatment is offered at a number of NHS centres across the UK.

Dr Purushothaman Premchand, consultant gastroenterologist at Queen’s Hospital, Romford, was the first doctor in the UK to regularly treat patients with inflammatory bowel disease via this method and started using it at his clinic in 2008.

‘We use it on our hard-to-treat patients, and we have seen a 70 per cent success rate in inducing remission,’ he says.

‘Some have stayed in remission for around four years.

‘More than 10,000 patients have received this treatment across the world, and it does not seem to have any serious side-effects.’

It is not cheap — each ‘tube’ costs around £1,000, and each patient needs around five to ten sessions.

But the costs are much smaller than the price of treating a patient who has suffered a relapse, says Dr Premchand: ‘We’re saving money by keeping patients away from hospital.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... z2fEL0wQnX
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
 

charlie

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Thats a really great article, burt!

A lot in that article is inline with Ray Peat.
 

jyb

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@ Charlie: I've also thought about whether increasing blood removal in some way would be beneficial, but isn't regular blood donation every 2-3 months enough? I mean if you follow a RP diet with measures to limit iron, you won't get much in, while blood donation probably removes a higher amount each time, so that if you do it for a few years, you're sure to bring it down to an optimal level. Especially if you are young and didn't have that much iron saturating your tissues yet.

Actually a good rule of thumb would be to know how much they removed in that study over all sessions.
 
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