Interactions Of Vitamin E And K

[haidut]

A review of the potential interactions between the two vitamins and the potential mechanisms behind the ability of vitamin E (in higher doses) to deplete vitamin K.

http://www.encognitive.com/files/Vitami ... roblem.pdf

Also, the abstract contains this statement:
"...The mechanisms by which vitamin E interferes with vitamin K activity, especially blood clotting, are not known, but hypothetically this interference may involve metabolic pathways. Phylloquinone (K1) must be converted to menaquinone (MK-4, the most potent extrahepatic tissue vitamin K) by truncation of the K1 side chain and replacement with geranylgeranyl."

I am not sure what they mean by "most potent", but it is yet another reference in a scientific study that favors MK-4 over the other forms of vitamin K.

 

[Such_Saturation]

K1 should have a few times more "vitamin k activity" than menatetrenone, so I don't know what that says for that hypothesis.

 

[jyb]

A review of the potential interactions between the two vitamins and the potential mechanisms behind the ability of vitamin E (in higher doses) to deplete vitamin K.

I find that very plausible from experience, aspirin and vitamin E without K having similar side effects.

 

[haidut]

A review of the potential interactions between the two vitamins and the potential mechanisms behind the ability of vitamin E (in higher doses) to deplete vitamin K.

I find that very plausible from experience, aspirin and vitamin E without K having similar side effects.

If vitamin E and aspirin both deplete vitamin K then does anyone taking vitamin E get tinnitus like the one gets from aspirin?
Btw, I always thought that tinnitus from high dose aspirin is from stomach irritation. Several people have communicated with Peat and have asked about tinnitus, he always responds that it's probably from gut irritation. Aspirin and gut irritation makes sense, but if people also get tinnitus from vitamin E then it's probably due to depleting vitamin K, as some people on the forum have reported that it reversed the tinnitus from aspirin.

 

[haidut]

K1 should have a few times more "vitamin k activity" than menatetrenone, so I don't know what that says for that hypothesis.

Chemically that may be so, but all studies so far have shown that MK-4 reverses arterial calcification caused by warfarin but K1 does not. Also, I saw a study that showed K1 is mostly stored and active in the liver while MK-4 was stored in all types of tissue (especially arteries). That may explain the anti-cancer effects of MK-4 in various organs like bone and prostate. Maybe that's why Peat recommends taking various forms of vitamin K since they all seem to have different site of action, even though they do interconvert into each other.

 

[johns74]

Maybe that's why Peat recommends taking various forms of vitamin K since they all seem to have different site of action, even though they do interconvert into each other.

Do you recall where he recommended to take various forms?

 

[jyb]

If vitamin E and aspirin both deplete vitamin K then does anyone taking vitamin E get tinnitus like the one gets from aspirin?
Btw, I always thought that tinnitus from high dose aspirin is from stomach irritation. Several people have communicated with Peat and have asked about tinnitus, he always responds that it's probably from gut irritation. Aspirin and gut irritation makes sense, but if people also get tinnitus from vitamin E then it's probably due to depleting vitamin K, as some people on the forum have reported that it reversed the tinnitus from aspirin.

Aspirin is known to deplete K. From this thread it now seems known that high dose E does too. Since tinnitus is calcification, and K reverses it, I thought it was clear that it was due to increased needs of K. The stomach irritation hypothesis in the case of aspirin and E would only be coherent if the K depletion is related to the irritation. This wasn't my impression when I read those aspirin papers, but I didn't look into that much details.

 

[jyb]

Wikipedia also mentions something with serotonin in relation to tinnitus...

Subjective tinnitus is also a side effect of some medications, such as aspirin, and may also result from an abnormally low level of serotonin activity.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Just sit in the dark for a while and you will hear ringing all of a sudden. It's nature's way of turning up the gain.

 

[jyb]

Just sit in the dark for a while and you will hear ringing all of a sudden. It's nature's way of turning up the gain.

What? No that's just you Suchy.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Just sit in the dark for a while and you will hear ringing all of a sudden. It's nature's way of turning up the gain.

What? No that's just you Suchy.

Try it when you are getting sleepy, and have eaten some kind of endotoxin-laden starch.

 

[Such_Saturation]

What do you think of this? http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pd ... -11-93.pdf

The guy works for an oil company, so keep that in mind.

 

[nograde]

While I agree that some forms of tinnitus are gut related (experienced that several times after irritation), Aspirin related tinnitus seems to be of different cause. Actually, in mainstream medicine, its a well known symptom of Aspirin "toxicity" (taking several grams in short time), explained by excessive uncoupling and cells in the inner ear being especially susceptible to it.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I thought there were two mechanisms, one in the ear and one in the brain.

 

[dd99]

I have an embarrassing admission. After months of tinnitus and tweaking my diet, taking a lot more K, etc, I was at the doctor's for my son and she took a look at my ear. Turns out it was caused by a wax plug pushing on my ear drum. She flushed it out and no more tinnitus.

 

[haidut]

What do you think of this? http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pd ... -11-93.pdf

The guy works for an oil company, so keep that in mind.

So, does this study suggest that the osteoporosis results from Japan with MK-4 were placebo effect? It says the MK-4 supplementation does not affect extra-hepatic tissues, which I assume includes bones.

 

[Such_Saturation]

There has to be some reason for all the marketing. Perhaps MK-7 is made from waste products.

 

[haidut]

There has to be some reason for all the marketing. Perhaps MK-7 is made from waste products.

That's right - most of the highly positive studies are coming from Netherlands and Japan, where MK-7 is made from cheese production waste and natto respectively. So, the fact that the Japanese have a vested interest to push MK-7 but instead approved MK-4 as an osteoporosis drug tells you something about the relative effectiveness of the two vitamins...

 

[johns74]

Good science is coming from Japan. MK4, and also the studies that show dental x-rays cause thyroid cancer.

I think some of the first good science about gamma tocopherol came from Australia.

 

[Amazoniac]

Vitamin E and K interactions : investigating mechanisms of reduced vitamin K status in response to excess vitamin E