Intense Stress During Passage Of Food Through Large Intestine

[Creative Nature]

@dfspcc20: Do you recall roughly how long it took your symptoms to go away after you dropped the vitamin E supplements containing MCT oil?

 

[dfspcc20]

@dfspcc20: Do you recall roughly how long it took your symptoms to go away after you dropped the vitamin E supplements containing MCT oil?

I think within 48 hours, IIRC.

 

[Mhouse]

Have you tried eliminating the carrot salad for a while? For me, it used to work well, but after a while it started giving me problems. Bowel movements would become more irregular, less frequent, and I’d also have very intense stress feelings as food was passing to - I think - the lower intestines and on. So intense that I’d have to stop doing what I’m doing and wait for it to be over. (Which didn’t take very long.) The smell would be absolutely foul and the relieve great. Also got the impression that I’d developed a nasty BO.

I took me a while to figure out that it’s actually the carrot, because it’s such common advice around here and a lot of people seem to do well on it. In my case, I’m still trying to figure out what caused my symptoms. I just don’t know but some suspects are the beta carotene, or maybe an overload of oxalates that’s developed over the years. One hypothesis is that my prior (mild) use of Camphosal knocked out the oxabacter things that are supposed to metabolize oxalate. Or perhaps a deficiency of B2.. Anyway, I’ve completely dropped it and doing great now on cooked mushrooms.

(BTW If anyone has similar experience with the carrot salad, I’d be very interested to hear about that.)

 

[Creative Nature]

I think within 48 hours, IIRC.

Thanks. I switched a few days ago to a brand of vitamin E that doesn't contain MCT oil. I made other changes around the same time so not clear yet whether the change in vitamin E is making a difference.

 

[Creative Nature]

Have you tried eliminating the carrot salad for a while? For me, it used to work well, but after a while it started giving me problems. Bowel movements would become more irregular, less frequent, and I’d also have very intense stress feelings as food was passing to - I think - the lower intestines and on. So intense that I’d have to stop doing what I’m doing and wait for it to be over. (Which didn’t take very long.) The smell would be absolutely foul and the relieve great. Also got the impression that I’d developed a nasty BO.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, @Mhouse. Except for the BO and the relatively quick relief, your symptoms sound quite similar to mine.

I've gone without the carrot salad for periods of a few days, usually at times when my symptoms are so bad that I can't eat much of anything. My symptoms often improve when I can't eat much, so it's unclear whether not eating the carrot is what's helping. But dropping the carrot salad for a week or two sounds like a good experiment.

Did you notice any other patterns in your symptoms or the timing of the symptoms? For example, did supplements, other foods besides the carrot, or other circumstances affect the symptoms? Were there other symptoms besides bowel irregularity and intense sensations of stress? Were symptoms worse at particular times of day?

It seems like I'm trying to put together a huge puzzle, and every piece counts, so I appreciate your help and the help of everyone else who's contributed.

I took me a while to figure out that it’s actually the carrot, because it’s such common advice around here and a lot of people seem to do well on it. In my case, I’m still trying to figure out what caused my symptoms. I just don’t know but some suspects are the beta carotene, or maybe an overload of oxalates that’s developed over the years. One hypothesis is that my prior (mild) use of Camphosal knocked out the oxabacter things that are supposed to metabolize oxalate. Or perhaps a deficiency of B2.. Anyway, I’ve completely dropped it and doing great now on cooked mushrooms.

Glad to hear you are doing better.

I know what RP has said about beta carotene, but I don't know much about oxalates. If you know of any good sources on oxalates or any discussions of oxalates by RP, I'd be glad to see them.

 

[rebuke]

You could try cooking the keto acids from juiced potatoes for protein.

 

[Creative Nature]

My protein intake has been very low since my streak of 50-60 g per day broke almost a week ago, but the stress reactions to food passing through the intestine (chest pain, tension, blood pressure spikes, etc.) continue to be very intense. The usual pattern had been that symptoms would fade after a few days of low protein. Yesterday was better than the recent norm, but otherwise, symptoms haven't faded.

Symptoms got so bad that I went to the ER a few days ago. No signs of heart trouble, so they sent me home. Aside from elevated white blood cell count, the lab test results that I remember looked normal.

I've used low doses of Life Giving Store's cascara sagrada for the last two nights. Both times, I've had easy bowel movements the next morning, but so far, no significant relief from the stress reactions to intestinal transit.

The gastroenterologist I saw a couple of days ago didn't think I have a GI infection or other GI problem...even though events in the GI can both start and stop my symptoms. At least she ordered a stool test.

 

[Creative Nature]

You could try cooking the keto acids from juiced potatoes for protein.

Thanks, @rebuke. I've been reluctant to try potato protein because of the time required, but if the ketoacids don't feed gut bacteria, they're potentially a good solution to my problem.

 

[Creative Nature]

Just received results of a blood test from last week (when I was in the ER) indicating vitamin B6 at the very bottom of the standard range.

I've seen others suggest that B1 can deplete B6, and on a few occasions, high dose B1 has made my GI symptoms much, much worse. I assumed the reason was that thiamine HCl powder was irritating the intestine, but perhaps I was wrong.

Could a B6 deficiency cause intestinal permeability or in some other way cause the symptoms I've described in this thread (intense stress reactions when material approaches the end of the intestine)?

 

[Recoen]

Just received results of a blood test from last week (when I was in the ER) indicating vitamin B6 at the very bottom of the standard range.

I've seen others suggest that B1 can deplete B6, and on a few occasions, high dose B1 has made my GI symptoms much, much worse. I assumed the reason was that thiamine HCl powder was irritating the intestine, but perhaps I was wrong.

Could a B6 deficiency cause intestinal permeability or in some other way cause the symptoms I've described in this thread (intense stress reactions when material approaches the end of the intestine)?

Serum Bs are more indicative of recent intake. Do you have a recent organic acids test?
I don’t do well with Bs by mouth (includes sublingual)- gi issues, anxiety, etc. Topical has been really helpful for me (energin- navel and temples).

 

[gaze]

Just received results of a blood test from last week (when I was in the ER) indicating vitamin B6 at the very bottom of the standard range.

I've seen others suggest that B1 can deplete B6, and on a few occasions, high dose B1 has made my GI symptoms much, much worse. I assumed the reason was that thiamine HCl powder was irritating the intestine, but perhaps I was wrong.

Could a B6 deficiency cause intestinal permeability or in some other way cause the symptoms I've described in this thread (intense stress reactions when material approaches the end of the intestine)?

Ray Peat Email Advice Depository

Ray says here that low b6 is a cause of panic attacks, so maybe?

I hope you feel better. I haven't had a stress bowel movement in a while, they kind of stopped for me once I cut out vitamin A fortified milk i think (cant remember exactly when) (also I drink a lot of unfortified milk), although my bowel movements are still irregular (although no stress reaction). Ive also been increasing decaf coffee for some magnesium, maybe that helps a little. what have you been eating recently?

 

[Creative Nature]

Serum Bs are more indicative of recent intake. Do you have a recent organic acids test?
I don’t do well with Bs by mouth (includes sublingual)- gi issues, anxiety, etc. Topical has been really helpful for me (energin- navel and temples).

Thanks for this information, @Recoen.

What is an organic acids test?

Like you, I've been doing much better lately with topical B vitamins than with oral. It's probably been at least two weeks since I last took any Bs orally. But in the last week or two, I've had trouble even with topical B1 and Energin, so I'm starting to wonder if B1 is producing adverse effects independent of any GI irritation from oral use of B1 powder.

A blood test from several months ago also indicated B6 at the bottom of the standard range. At that time, I tried supplementing B6 and did not notice any obvious changes, so I forgot about the test until I received the results of last week's B6 test. Yesterday, I took around 10 mg of B6 (pyridoxine HCl) topically, and it seemed to help with some of my symptoms, but it's hard to draw any conclusions from one day.

 

[Recoen]

Thanks for this information, @Recoen.

What is an organic acids test?

Like you, I've been doing much better lately with topical B vitamins than with oral. It's probably been at least two weeks since I last took any Bs orally. But in the last week or two, I've had trouble even with topical B1 and Energin, so I'm starting to wonder if B1 is producing adverse effects independent of any GI irritation from oral use of B1 powder.

A blood test from several months ago also indicated B6 at the bottom of the standard range. At that time, I tried supplementing B6 and did not notice any obvious changes, so I forgot about the test until I received the results of last week's B6 test. Yesterday, I took around 10 mg of B6 (pyridoxine HCl) topically, and it seemed to help with some of my symptoms, but it's hard to draw any conclusions from one day.

B1 and B2 are needed to get estrogen moving out of the liver for excretion. They both get Fe, Cu, etc moving again (the other Bs help too). I wonder if your GI stress has to do with these all hitting at once. I haven’t read the entire thread but have you increased your carrot salad/mushrooms/shoots? Or tried a binder? Maybe even some Ca d glucarate?
Some experience oxalate dumping through stool too and the TLO group says the Bs can cause dumping so I wonder if that’s irritating you too.

 

[Creative Nature]

Ray Peat Email Advice Depository

Ray says here that low b6 is a cause of panic attacks, so maybe?

Thanks for pointing out this connection, @commas.

I don't feel panicked during intestinal transit, but very tense and stressed. So perhaps low/depleted B6 could be contributing.

I hope you feel better. I haven't had a stress bowel movement in a while, they kind of stopped for me once I cut out vitamin A fortified milk i think (cant remember exactly when) (also I drink a lot of unfortified milk),

Thanks. Maintaining a healthy GI would be easier without all the industrial junk in our food. Glad you identified a cause of your GI trouble.

although my bowel movements are still irregular (although no stress reaction). Ive also been increasing decaf coffee for some magnesium, maybe that helps a little. what have you been eating recently?

Decaf coffee has been good for me, too.

I had been working on eating more protein and moving towards a less restrictive diet, but then got hammered by the GI stress reactions when my protein approached 60 g per day. (60 g is too low, but better than I'd been doing.) The reactions are now the worst they've ever been (ER last week), and they last for hours. So I couldn't sustain the changes.

Since then, I've been trying to eat more liver -- about 1/2 oz per day and hoping to increase. Seems to be helping. RP has written that vitamin A helps maintain the intestinal barrier, and I suspect I've had low A intake for much of the last couple of years.

So, right now, I'm eating mainly fruit juice, gelatin, cheese, beef liver, shellfish, decaf coffee with sugar, egg yolk, mushrooms, carrots, coconut oil, and butter. Hoping that when the current storm dies down, I'll be able to get back to eating more protein and a more varied diet.

 

[gaze]

Thanks for pointing out this connection, @commas.

I don't feel panicked during intestinal transit, but very tense and stressed. So perhaps low/depleted B6 could be contributing.



Thanks. Maintaining a healthy GI would be easier without all the industrial junk in our food. Glad you identified a cause of your GI trouble.



Decaf coffee has been good for me, too.

I had been working on eating more protein and moving towards a less restrictive diet, but then got hammered by the GI stress reactions when my protein approached 60 g per day. (60 g is too low, but better than I'd been doing.) The reactions are now the worst they've ever been (ER last week), and they last for hours. So I couldn't sustain the changes.

Since then, I've been trying to eat more liver -- about 1/2 oz per day and hoping to increase. Seems to be helping. RP has written that vitamin A helps maintain the intestinal barrier, and I suspect I've had low A intake for much of the last couple of years.

So, right now, I'm eating mainly fruit juice, gelatin, beef liver, shellfish, decaf coffee with sugar, egg yolk, mushrooms, carrots, coconut oil, and butter. Hoping that when the current storm dies down, I'll be able to get back to eating more protein and a more varied diet.

Sorry if you mentioned this already, but is there a reason you don’t drink milk or eat cheese? I think calcium is just about the most important thing for relaxation. Also just looking at your diet, is the coconut oil refined? Also what’s the longest you’ve gone without eating eggs?

 

[opson123]

Have you tried dropping gelatin for a while? I know it's recommended a lot here and that it's supposed to be easy to digest, but IME it's the opposite. I'm quoting an ex forum member Sea here: "I doubt there has ever been a hypothyroid person capable of digesting gelatin." You said you're hypothyroid, so unless you've already tried, I think it's worth a shot.

 

[Creative Nature]

B1 and B2 are needed to get estrogen moving out of the liver for excretion. They both get Fe, Cu, etc moving again (the other Bs help too). I wonder if your GI stress has to do with these all hitting at once. I haven’t read the entire thread but have you increased your carrot salad/mushrooms/shoots? Or tried a binder? Maybe even some Ca d glucarate?
Some experience oxalate dumping through stool too and the TLO group says the Bs can cause dumping so I wonder if that’s irritating you too.

Thank you, @Recoen. I have not significantly increased the frequency or amount of carrot salad or mushrooms, but I eat both almost daily. (Sometimes I'll miss the mushrooms for a week or so if I'm not up to cooking, or I'll miss both if I can't eat.) I should try charcoal again, but in the past, it hasn't done much for these GI stress reactions. I'll look into calcium d-glucarate.

I'm not familiar with oxalate dumping. What symptoms does it usually produce?

 

[Creative Nature]

Sorry if you mentioned this already, but is there a reason you don’t drink milk or eat cheese? I think calcium is just about the most important thing for relaxation. Also just looking at your diet, is the coconut oil refined? Also what’s the longest you’ve gone without eating eggs?

My mistake -- I do eat cheese. Just edited my post to add it to the list. When I'm in better health, I can tolerate milk, too. Looking forward to trying the warm goat milk you mentioned earlier. But for now, I could defiinitely use more calcium. Thanks for the idea.

I use refined coconut oil. I eat one egg yolk per day. Symptoms don't seem to be different on days when I miss it.

 

[Creative Nature]

Have you tried dropping gelatin for a while? I know it's recommended a lot here and that it's supposed to be easy to digest, but IME it's the opposite. I'm quoting an ex forum member Sea here: "I doubt there has ever been a hypothyroid person capable of digesting gelatin." You said you're hypothyroid, so unless you've already tried, I think it's worth a shot.

Thanks for the idea, @opson123 . I've been emphasizing gelatin for its gut-healing benefits, and at times it seems to be helping, but I may try dropping it.

 

[Creative Nature]

It's crazy. Like clockwork, when material reaches a particular part of the intestine, towards the end, I get a brutal stress reaction, my oxidative metabolism seems to shut down, I get severe chest pain and shortness of breath, and only a ton of clonidine saves me.

At the moment, my interpretation is that some part of the intestine near the end is incredibly irritated or injured and is leaking massive amounts of endotoxin, turning off my already low metabolism. If this interpretation is right, I've got to find a way to heal this irritated part, and fast.

RP has mentioned importance of vitamin A and magnesium for maintaining gut barrier, as well as saturated fats and gelatin. My magnesium intake could be higher. I think I'm getting reasonable amounts of the other three, though maybe more would help. I'm sure there are other ways to help heal the gut barrier, and commenters above have provided good leads.

As usual, I'll welcome your thoughts.