Intense Stress During Passage Of Food Through Large Intestine

[gaze]

Thank you, @Kammas. RP's point that adequate sugar intake can stop allergies is a good one to keep in mind. I can certainly do more to work on keeping my blood sugar stable.

My stress reactions to intestinal transit vary in symptoms and intensity. When the reactions are mild to moderate, fruit juice and salt (or baking soda) often help. When the reactions are severe, juice and salt don't seem to do much, and it's challenging to force myself to eat or drink.

My glycogen storage is poor, and some of the stress reactions may occur when I've gone too long without eating or drinking, but the more common pattern is that I eat or drink (or do something else that stimulates the intestine, like lying under a heat lamp), the intestine starts churning, and then I get a blast of stress hormones.

Yea I feel you, its quite scary and annoying. Is there anything new your trying? What's the longest you've gone with no supplements? and how much do you walk per day ?

 

[Creative Nature]

Here's an update on my experiments.

Since my last update, I've continued to get bad stress reactions to GI transit. I had already cut back on supplements, but had reintroduced some and started or increased others to ward off what I think may be an on and off viral infection. So about a week ago, I stopped taking taurine, inosine, and zinc, cut way back on methylene blue and niacinamide, and reduced B1 (which I'd already cut back quite significantly).

Cutting back on supplements in this fashion initially seemed to help, but may have backfired. My metabolism tanked, and I developed bad upper GI reactions to food and even low doses of my remaining supplements. I know based on past experience that, for me, these kinds of upper GI problems typically result from low metabolism.

So I now have a dilemma: I need B1, niacinamide, methylene blue, and maybe taurine to keep my metabolism high enough for me to be able to eat, but at the moment, it seems like almost everything I eat/drink/take triggers GI distress, which in turn causes severe adrenergic reactions.

I badly need protein to heal my GI; I have way too many days where I can only eat 25-50 g. But the crazy reactions to intestinal transit, and now the upper GI problems, make it extremely challenging just to get to 50 g.

Since I'm very hypothyroid and hypothyroidism likely contributes to my GI problems, I'm considering trying a thyroid supplement. Obviously it would be better to start at a time when I'm well-nourished, not deficient in protein and B vitamins like I am now. On the other hand, I don't see how I can fix the deficiencies when my metabolism is so poor that I can't eat. Maybe if I start with extremely low doses of thyroid and increase slowly, I can gradually improve my nutrition as my metabolism improves.

Thanks in advance for any helpful ideas or suggestions. I'd be especially glad to hear from anyone who overcame GI problems with thyroid. Even more so if the GI problems made eating difficult.

 

[Creative Nature]

Yea I feel you, its quite scary and annoying. Is there anything new your trying? What's the longest you've gone with no supplements? and how much do you walk per day ?

I've been experimenting with cutting back on supplements or eliminating them entirely. It's clear that some of them trigger the reactions to passage of food through the lower GI, and cutting them out makes the reactions less severe for a time.

The catch is that if I cut some of them (B1, niacinamide, and methylene blue seem especially important for me), my metabolism completely crashes and I become short of breath, fatigue easily, get chest pains, can't move around much, can't focus on work, and develop bad upper GI reactions to just about any food or supplement that I swallow. I can last a few days without B1 or niacinamide before the symptoms become unbearable.

I've also been experimenting with cutting out spices and trying to eat more gelatin. The gelatin helps, but it's hard for me to get more than 2-3 tbsps (18-27 g of protein from gelatin) per day.

I've been home bound for over a year. In the last few months, there have been good times when I've been able to increase my activity, walk around my place more, even do a little qi gong or yoga. On days when the GI problems are really bad or I can't eat, significant exercise is probably not too helpful, but on my good days, more walking might stimulate more bloodflow to the GI, which could facilitate healing. So I appreciate that suggestion.

 

[Creative Nature]

Another recent experiment: I've been taking 20 mg of famotidine daily in the hope that it might soothe the inflammation in my GI. So far, I haven't seen any clear benefit.

Edit to add: In the last month, I've also experimented with coffee, both decaf and regular. I wasn't sure, but it felt like sometimes small amounts of regular coffee made the intestinal distress less severe. I tolerate coffee well when I take enough B1, but as I've cut back on B1, I've had to drop coffee.

 

[Andman]

have you tried transdermal application of the b-vitamins? absorbtion according to the energin-thread is around 90% if in alcohol, methylene blue can be used transdermally too

 

[Creative Nature]

have you tried transdermal application of the b-vitamins? absorbtion according to the energin-thread is around 90% if in alcohol, methylene blue can be used transdermally too

Thank you, @Andman. I just dissolved 100 mg of thiamine HCl powder in warm vodka and applied it to my forearms. (If I can get hold of everclear, I may try it as a solvent.) Will try topical methylene blue later today. If I can get topical application to work for B vitamins and MB, it will make a huge difference.

If you or anyone else reading knows of a better method of topical administration than the simple one I just used (dissolve B vitamin powder in vodka and rub on wrists/arms), please let me know.

Even what looks like a small amount of vodka is a lot to spread on the skin, so next time, I'll try to make a much more concentrated solution.

 

[Creative Nature]

I've made gradual, inconsistent progress in healing my intestine in the last several weeks. Trying to take supplements topically rather than orally (to the extent possible) and dropping some supplements have helped, though it's hard to tell what's making the difference. Gelatin helps significantly, but I can't eat anywhere near as much as I'd like.

This morning, my intestine was churning away, and I could feel a very bad stress reaction coming. Usually baking soda doesn't seem to help much with severe reactions, but this time it made a severe one very manageable; blood pressure dropped, tension eased a bit, and I could breathe normally again. I think I took a little more baking soda than usual, and took it earlier, before the stress peaked.

If I can get baking soda to work consistently as well as it did this morning, it will be a big step forward.

Edit: Hat tip to @Andman for suggesting baking soda a while ago.

 

[dfspcc20]

@Creative Nature Still getting these attacks? I hadn't looked at this thread in a bit, but just saw you were having success with baking soda.

I've been 2ish months since my last one.

As I mentioned before, there is some connection with neck tension (either as a cause or another symptom).

Also, didn't make this connection before, but there is a correlation with when I take vitamin E; as in, I get the symptoms maybe 8-12 hours after taking it (as Tocovit), either internally or transdermally (on navel).

I initially didn't consider this, since I had positive experiences with Tocovit before when I ordered back in 2016-2018. I took a break with it, then had an order in Oct 2019, and these symptoms started showing up shortly thereafter. I was taking it really sporadically (whenever I happened to have a meal with significant pufa, and/or got a lot of sun), which would explain why the symptoms were also very sporadic.

I'm pretty sure there was a formulation change with Tocovit between those timeframes.

Anyway, gave that up, and been symptom free.

Not sure if this makes any sense, or if it could apply to you. Just passing along.

 

[Creative Nature]

@Creative Nature Still getting these attacks? I hadn't looked at this thread in a bit, but just saw you were having success with baking soda.

I've been 2ish months since my last one.

As I mentioned before, there is some connection with neck tension (either as a cause or another symptom).

Also, didn't make this connection before, but there is a correlation with when I take vitamin E; as in, I get the symptoms maybe 8-12 hours after taking it (as Tocovit), either internally or transdermally (on navel).

I initially didn't consider this, since I had positive experiences with Tocovit before when I ordered back in 2016-2018. I took a break with it, then had an order in Oct 2019, and these symptoms started showing up shortly thereafter. I was taking it really sporadically (whenever I happened to have a meal with significant pufa, and/or got a lot of sun), which would explain why the symptoms were also very sporadic.

I'm pretty sure there was a formulation change with Tocovit between those timeframes.

Anyway, gave that up, and been symptom free.

Not sure if this makes any sense, or if it could apply to you. Just passing along.

Thanks very much for the update, @dfspcc20. I take tocovit almost every day -- I occasionally swap it for Health Natura's whole E. I'll try going a week or two without tocovit and see if the lower GI attacks go away. Glad to hear that you have found the likely culprit. Do you know whether other brands of vitamin E also produce the attacks?

I'm still getting the attacks often. Sometimes, if I'm quick to take baking soda and clonidine and drink fruit juice, I can reduce the severity of the attack quite a bit...and other times, not.

When protein passes through my intestine, I'm in trouble, but it seems like the carrot salad and maybe cooked mushrooms can pass through without much irritation. So I suspect protein-loving bacteria play a role in the attacks.

I'm also starting to wonder if the timing of my meals makes a difference. My stress hormones tend to calm down late in the day, making it much easier for me to eat protein without bad reactions. As a result, I eat a large % of my protein in the last 2-3 hours before bedtime. If digestion tends to be weaker at night, maybe my habit of eating late is allowing pathogenic bacteria to feast on poorly digested protein, which would help explain why transit of protein through my intestine wrecks me.

So one of my next experiments will be to limit protein intake in the hours before bedtime...

 

[dfspcc20]

Thanks very much for the update, @dfspcc20. I take tocovit almost every day -- I occasionally swap it for Health Natura's whole E. I'll try going a week or two without tocovit and see if the lower GI attacks go away. Glad to hear that you have found the likely culprit. Do you know whether other brands of vitamin E also produce the attacks?

I've used Unique-E in 2013-2015. I may have had some similar episodes then, but I wrote them off at the time as being caused by caffeine.

 

[Creative Nature]

I've used Unique-E in 2013-2015. I may have had some similar episodes then, but I wrote them off at the time as being caused by caffeine.

Thanks, good to know.

 

[Creative Nature]

Stress reactions to intestinal transit have become much worse in last few days.

A few weeks ago, I had upper GI problems (maybe gastritis or h. pylori infection, discussed in another thread) that made it hard for me to eat. For several days, I had little protein, and intestinal stress reactions faded.

When the upper GI problems receded, I resolved to increase protein intake and overcome my history of protein deficiency, hopefully improving GI function in the process.

For a week or so, I consistently ate over 50 g of protein per day, and reached 60 g a few times. These amounts are much less than RP recommends, but they're a significant improvement for me. (For the last few months, I've often fallen short of 40 g per day.)

With each day over 50 g of protein, the intestinal reactions got progressively worse and lasted longer. The last few days have been terrible. Intense head pressure, light-headedness, shortness of breath, tingling nerves, etc., lasting much of the day. Several times, I've felt like I'm about to pass out. Can't stand up for long. It feels like my metabolism is just shutting down. It's frustrating that one of the nutrients my body needs most (protein) is exactly what exacerbates my GI symptoms.

I suspect protein is feeding gut pathogens. (I eat almost no starch, so carrots, mushrooms, and incompletely digested protein probably comprise most of the material passing through my intestine.) I'd guess the pathogens eating the protein residue are producing a lot of endotoxin or ammonia, which my gut is leaking, and which then impairs oxidative metabolism throughout my body.

The puzzle is why all of the usual Peaty methods of lowering endotoxin and serotonin don't seem to make much difference for me.

As a few commenters suggested, I've ordered cascara sagrada in the hope of increasing energy production in the lower GI.

I have an appointment with a gastroenterologist next week. I'm going to request a stool culture to identify possible gut pathogens and also MRI or ultrasound. I don't recall whether RP thinks colonoscopies are worthwhile or not. (If you know, please reply.)

I'll welcome any thoughts you have about the causes of my symptoms, possible remedies, and tests I should request or avoid. I'd especially like to hear your thoughts about how best to restore the gut barrier.

 

[Recoen]

Stress reactions to intestinal transit have become much worse in last few days.

A few weeks ago, I had upper GI problems (maybe gastritis or h. pylori infection, discussed in another thread) that made it hard for me to eat. For several days, I had little protein, and intestinal stress reactions faded.

When the upper GI problems receded, I resolved to increase protein intake and overcome my history of protein deficiency, hopefully improving GI function in the process.

For a week or so, I consistently ate over 50 g of protein per day, and reached 60 g a few times. These amounts are much less than RP recommends, but they're a significant improvement for me. (For the last few months, I've often fallen short of 40 g per day.)

With each day over 50 g of protein, the intestinal reactions got progressively worse and lasted longer. The last few days have been terrible. Intense head pressure, light-headedness, shortness of breath, tingling nerves, etc., lasting much of the day. Several times, I've felt like I'm about to pass out. Can't stand up for long. It feels like my metabolism is just shutting down. It's frustrating that one of the nutrients my body needs most (protein) is exactly what exacerbates my GI symptoms.

I suspect protein is feeding gut pathogens. (I eat almost no starch, so carrots, mushrooms, and incompletely digested protein probably comprise most of the material passing through my intestine.) I'd guess the pathogens eating the protein residue are producing a lot of endotoxin or ammonia, which my gut is leaking, and which then impairs oxidative metabolism throughout my body.

The puzzle is why all of the usual Peaty methods of lowering endotoxin and serotonin don't seem to make much difference for me.

As a few commenters suggested, I've ordered cascara sagrada in the hope of increasing energy production in the lower GI.

I have an appointment with a gastroenterologist next week. I'm going to request a stool culture to identify possible gut pathogens and also MRI or ultrasound. I don't recall whether RP thinks colonoscopies are worthwhile or not. (If you know, please reply.)

I'll welcome any thoughts you have about the causes of my symptoms, possible remedies, and tests I should request or avoid. I'd especially like to hear your thoughts about how best to restore the gut barrier.

What protein source(s) did you use?

 

[JKX]

Have you tried a low nitrate diet? Certain types of pathogenic bacteria respirate on nitrates. They produce thiaminase to block thiamine usage by more beneficial bacterial species to outcompete them. These species can ferment carbohydrate. Could explain your bad reactions to thiamine hydrochloride supplementation. A low nitrate diet might help.

In addition the combination of a little thiamine hydrochloride, dropped into some hot water with a small amount of bicarbonate of soda would make the thiamine more available to your body and less available to any pathogenic bacteria. Taking thiamine with selenium can also help.

I'd also consider supplementing a probiotic dominant in bifido infantis and bidido breve species. Perhaps a little controversial but they helped my gut problems immensely. These are the dominant bacteria types passed on by mothers milk.

Liquid cyproheptidine dropped directly into your navel might also be worth trying. As might colostrum.

 

[dfspcc20]

@Creative Nature Sorry to hear you're still having issues. Even after omitting vitamin E?
In my case, I'm fairly sure it was that and/or the MCT, which is in the product. I think Peat has said MCT can cause intense reactions in some people.

 

[Creative Nature]

What protein source(s) did you use?

In order from greatest increase to smallest, the additional protein consisted of cheese, beef gelatin, scallops, ground beef, and beef liver. I continued to eat oysters and egg yolks as well, but did not increase the amounts.

 

[Creative Nature]

Have you tried a low nitrate diet? Certain types of pathogenic bacteria respirate on nitrates. They produce thiaminase to block thiamine usage by more beneficial bacterial species to outcompete them. These species can ferment carbohydrate. Could explain your bad reactions to thiamine hydrochloride supplementation. A low nitrate diet might help.

Very interesting. Thanks, @JKX. That reasoning could explain a paradox: I often display signs of thiamine deficiency but also can react poorly to thiamine supplementation.

I'm not sure whether my diet is low in nitrates. I don't eat the obvious high-nitrate foods like processed meats or green vegetables.

Do you know of other ways to reduce the population of nitrate-respirating bacteria? So far, my GI problems haven't responded much to raw carrots and cooked mushrooms or to antibiotics like penicillin and tetracycline.

In addition the combination of a little thiamine hydrochloride, dropped into some hot water with a small amount of bicarbonate of soda would make the thiamine more available to your body and less available to any pathogenic bacteria. Taking thiamine with selenium can also help.

At the moment, my stomach is hyper-sensitive and isn't tolerating oral supplements, but in the future, I'll try combining B1 with baking soda or selenium.

I'd also consider supplementing a probiotic dominant in bifido infantis and bidido breve species. Perhaps a little controversial but they helped my gut problems immensely. These are the dominant bacteria types passed on by mothers milk.

Liquid cyproheptidine dropped directly into your navel might also be worth trying. As might colostrum.

Thank you for the suggestions; I'll give them a shot.

I vaguely recall seeing colostrum recommended for restoring the gut barrier. Mine is likely in bad shape, so colostrum makes sense. Do you have a source or brand you like?

 

[Creative Nature]

@Creative Nature Sorry to hear you're still having issues. Even after omitting vitamin E?
In my case, I'm fairly sure it was that and/or the MCT, which is in the product. I think Peat has said MCT can cause intense reactions in some people.

Thanks for your reply, @dfspcc20. Good to hear again from someone who's overcome similar problems.

I rely on vitamin E to oppose estrogen, so I'm reluctant to drop vitamin E entirely without having a good substitute lined up...But your post reminds me that I have on my shelf a brand of vitamin E that doesn't contain MCT. I'll switch to the MCT-free brand today.

 

[JKX]

Very interesting. Thanks, @JKX. That reasoning could explain a paradox: I often display signs of thiamine deficiency but also can react poorly to thiamine supplementation.

I'm not sure whether my diet is low in nitrates. I don't eat the obvious high-nitrate foods like processed meats or green vegetables.

Do you know of other ways to reduce the population of nitrate-respirating bacteria? So far, my GI problems haven't responded much to raw carrots and cooked mushrooms or to antibiotics like penicillin and tetracycline.



At the moment, my stomach is hyper-sensitive and isn't tolerating oral supplements, but in the future, I'll try combining B1 with baking soda or selenium.



Thank you for the suggestions; I'll give them a shot.

I vaguely recall seeing colostrum recommended for restoring the gut barrier. Mine is likely in bad shape, so colostrum makes sense. Do you have a source or brand you like?

Colostrum or gelatin would help but the bacterial issue is the main thing to resolve. Even things like eggs can be fairly high in nitrates so it would be worth reducing consumption for a week or 2 and monitoring for improvements. Not that I'm suggesting eggs are bad, they just seem to give some a hard time and I think this is gut bacteria related. No preference for colostrum brands. It's expensive so a bulk powder might be the way to go. Ive used New Zealand sourced colostrum with no issues. Another alternative might be lactoferrin.

 

[Creative Nature]

Colostrum or gelatin would help but the bacterial issue is the main thing to resolve. Even things like eggs can be fairly high in nitrates so it would be worth reducing consumption for a week or 2 and monitoring for improvements. Not that I'm suggesting eggs are bad, they just seem to give some a hard time and I think this is gut bacteria related. No preference for colostrum brands. It's expensive so a bulk powder might be the way to go. Ive used New Zealand sourced colostrum with no issues. Another alternative might be lactoferrin.

Thanks, @JKX.