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Insulin sentivity is what makes you fat. Insulin resistance is not

Jessie

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2020
Messages
713
Maybe not such a bad thing if this weight gain comes in the form of muscle.

But of course we need a healthy thyroid and insulin sensitive muscles for that to happen. lol.
Sure

weight gain =/= fat

Good metabolism and high activity will help ensure extra calories go to bulking muscle rather then getting fat. Bodybuilders eat large amounts of food for a reason. Although I'm unsure how this would work on a high calorie low carb diet. I think despite the high caloric consumption, low carb diets would lead to too much cortisol to see drastic body composition changes. Back in my low carb days Mark Sission was the man everyone followed. He's got a great physique, but he essentially got that before he was even a low carber. He hasn't had any gains since. A more recent and perhaps even better example would be Shawn Baker. The dude literally busts his **** off on workouts and he hasn't made any progress. Same dude before going carnivore just older. I think both high calorie and some carbohydrate is needed to build decent amounts of muscle.
 

OccamzRazer

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2021
Messages
1,913
Sure

weight gain =/= fat

Good metabolism and high activity will help ensure extra calories go to bulking muscle rather then getting fat. Bodybuilders eat large amounts of food for a reason. Although I'm unsure how this would work on a high calorie low carb diet. I think despite the high caloric consumption, low carb diets would lead to too much cortisol to see drastic body composition changes. Back in my low carb days Mark Sission was the man everyone followed. He's got a great physique, but he essentially got that before he was even a low carber. He hasn't had any gains since. A more recent and perhaps even better example would be Shawn Baker. The dude literally busts his **** off on workouts and he hasn't made any progress. Same dude before going carnivore just older. I think both high calorie and some carbohydrate is needed to build decent amounts of muscle.
Very good point.

Yeah Baker has not improved - he's actually kinda withered away recently. He and other carnivores just look high cortisol.

I was carnivore last summer and couldn't get above 167 pounds no matter what I did.

Now sitting at 175ish thanks to Ray Peat style carb inclusion.

Carbs are definitely needed for maximal anabolism...just in the right amount, at the right time.
 

area51puy

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2021
Messages
351
Thank you for pointing this out! Insulin resistance really does need to be mentioned in the context of where it's occurring.

While Saladino brings up some great points, I find it weird he doesn't mention how much his favorite tribe loves eating the baobab seed. Peat has a much more unified view of metabolism IMO.

View: https://youtu.be/jrHi6dFzl68


He actually went down and lived with them for about 5 days and about 13 and 45 second into the video he mentioned the baobab fruit.
But he was a hard core carnivore but the past year or so he has added honey to his diet because he was getting major cramps and says some fruits are ok but totally anti-vegetable.

but he isn’t anti sugar anymore, he just says if you have metabolic dysfunction to avoid sugar until you are metabolically healthy but believes removing PUFAs and eating a carnivore with animal fats with stearic acid is the way to fix metabolic dysfunction which isn’t anti-peat but not a peat diet.
 

area51puy

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2021
Messages
351
Very good point.

Yeah Baker has not improved - he's actually kinda withered away recently. He and other carnivores just look high cortisol.

I was carnivore last summer and couldn't get above 167 pounds no matter what I did.

Now sitting at 175ish thanks to Ray Peat style carb inclusion.

Carbs are definitely needed for maximal anabolism...just in the right amount, at the right time.
I was about 220 pounds 3 and 1/2 years ago and did keto with protein source and salads with kale and tons of pufa filled salad dressings mostly for about 16 months in a two year period with about 30 pounds of fat to lose, but I got pretty cut and got down to about 170 so I lost a lot of fat but lost a lot of muscle trying to lose those last ten pounds of fat , probably lost 20 pounds of muscle trying to lose the last ten pounds of fat I had. Probably the high pufa intake plus low carb had cortisol through the roof.

Then I started the carnivore diet and went up to 185-190 and gained a little fat and some muscle but stayed at that weight the whole year.

Then I started a peat diet and a little extra after avoiding carbs for so long. I was Like sailor on land after being out to sea for years and put on a lot of muscle and fat ,but my strength and energy levels went through the roof and went from 195 to 225 pounds in about a month. I would say half fat , half muscle and water, I gave my body what it needed and it just grew. I’ve dropped about 5 pounds in the past week and think my metabolism is getting higher but seems like kept muscle and just lost a some fat.
 

Sefton10

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Messages
1,464
Back in my low carb days Mark Sission was the man everyone followed. He's got a great physique, but he essentially got that before he was even a low carber. He hasn't had any gains since.
They pretty much all do this. Get jacked on the standard bodybuilding protocol, go low carb for a bit and lean out, then sell the low carb as the reason they are lean and jacked.

There’s a growing number on social media doing the same with functional patterns training. They were a bodybuilder for 10 years, got jacked, then injured, so they pivot to functional patterns for 3 months, post the shirtless videos of them doing that and sell that as the reason they are jacked.
 

Yucca

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2021
Messages
221
Location
France
Sure

weight gain =/= fat

Good metabolism and high activity will help ensure extra calories go to bulking muscle rather then getting fat. Bodybuilders eat large amounts of food for a reason. Although I'm unsure how this would work on a high calorie low carb diet. I think despite the high caloric consumption, low carb diets would lead to too much cortisol to see drastic body composition changes. Back in my low carb days Mark Sission was the man everyone followed. He's got a great physique, but he essentially got that before he was even a low carber. He hasn't had any gains since. A more recent and perhaps even better example would be Shawn Baker. The dude literally busts his **** off on workouts and he hasn't made any progress. Same dude before going carnivore just older. I think both high calorie and some carbohydrate is needed to build decent amounts of muscle.
High fats works perfectly with gaining muscle.
I already talked about this.
You don't get high cortisol ONLY when you become keto adapted. And it can take up to 6 months to get fully keto adapted if you're serious (or even never for some people)

Low carbs is truely crap, as your energy levels are also always low.
You MUST get in ketosis to gets benefits and really use fats, so your main energy fuel comes from fats, and the magic begins.
Just look at ketogains, and/or the ketogains subreddit.

The great "progresses" you see for most of bodybluiders don't come from diet, but just anabolic steroids.
I believe most serious ketoers are still "natural", so they can't humanly be huge (and being huge is never healthy), and other natural high carbs bodybuilders can't also, because nature/genetics (myostatin levels) prevents this.

But, yes, carbs helps a lot in any case, specially right after trainings (insulin like effect)
 
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T

TheBeard

Guest
Please stop posting this bull**** here.

You're new here.

RP forum is a place to discuss controvertial health routes, including those that diverge from the main school of thoughts from RP himself.

Respect anyone posting, they are contributing to the general knowledge we can have, from which we can discern what is viable or not.
 

Razvan

Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2019
Messages
802
Location
Romania
You're new here.

RP forum is a place to discuss controvertial health routes, including those that diverge from the main school of thoughts from RP himself.

Respect anyone posting, they are contributing to the general knowledge we can have, from which we can discern what is viable or not.
I'm not new here, and i know how it works,that was pure BS.
 

opson123

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
327
Lyle McDonald has good articles about this subject. Google "Lyle McDonald insulin resistance/sensitivity" if interested.

How much of a hypocrite can you be TheBeard? You're one of the rudest and most arrogant members on this website and you're talking about "respecting anyone posting".
 
T

TheBeard

Guest
Lyle McDonald has good articles about this subject. Google "Lyle McDonald insulin resistance/sensitivity" if interested.

How much of a hypocrite can you be TheBeard? You're one of the rudest and most arrogant members on this website and you're talking about "respecting anyone posting".

Looks like you still have some unresolved behavioral issues, jealousy towards me, and more generally health issues that are conducive to such bitterness.

Hope you find a solution soon, must not be enjoyable being you.
 

opson123

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
327
Looks like you still have some unresolved behavioral issues, jealousy towards me, and more generally health issues that are conducive to such bitterness.

Hope you find a solution soon, must not be enjoyable being you.

Sure dude. You have 2k messages, if you can't find my description of you in them, then lucky you. You're projecting all those negative traits on me.
 
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Jessie

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2020
Messages
713
They pretty much all do this. Get jacked on the standard bodybuilding protocol, go low carb for a bit and lean out, then sell the low carb as the reason they are lean and jacked.

There’s a growing number on social media doing the same with functional patterns training. They were a bodybuilder for 10 years, got jacked, then injured, so they pivot to functional patterns for 3 months, post the shirtless videos of them doing that and sell that as the reason they are jacked.
It's certainly a trend I've noticed quite often. Unfortunately, it doesn't exactly take a strong sales pitch to push a low carb diet on people desperate to see weight loss. People can see results on the scales pretty fast, within days. They lose several pounds of water, feel less bloated, and think they're heading in the right direction. Most these pushers aren't even scientists or doctors. Many have no degrees at all, or if they do, it's always some useless crap like a chiropractic degree. You find the right amount of gullibleness and desperation, and this lifestyle basically sells itself.


High fats works perfectly with gaining muscle.
I already talked about this.
You don't get high cortisol ONLY when you become keto adapted. And it can take up to 6 months to get fully keto adapted if you're serious (or even never for some people)

Low carbs is truely crap, as your energy levels are also always low.
You MUST get in ketosis to gets benefits and really use fats, so your main energy fuel comes from fats, and the magic begins.
Just look at ketogains, and/or the ketogains subreddit.

The great "progresses" you see for most of bodybluiders don't come from diet, but just anabolic steroids.
I believe most serious ketoers are still "natural", so they can't humanly be huge (and being huge is never healthy), and other natural high carbs bodybuilders can't also, because nature/genetics (myostatin levels) prevents this.

But, yes, carbs helps a lot in any case, specially right after trainings (insulin like effect)
It might work better for young people who still produce enough pregnenolone, progesterone, and DHEA. But sooner or later the serum cholesterol always ends up rising. I mean, like, this is almost linear. The trend is so consistent that many of these keto gurus have to end up defending high cholesterol as a "good" thing. But when this happens it's a clear sign that the person's youth hormones are in decline (also thyroid).

I think a decline in thyroid, CO2, pregnenolone, progesterone, and DHEA along with a increase in cortisol, adrenaline, glucagon, and leptin sets the stage for premature aging. I think the deterioration can be a matter of degree, based on individual fluctuations, but in all these people there's a general shift into catabolism.

Just my 2c, but if a low carber really wants a compelling counter argument, they need to spend less time defending high cortisol and high cholesterol, and more time refuting the benefits of of CO2 retention. None of them do this though, probably because they just view CO2 as a waste product of sugar metabolism.
 

Yucca

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Joined
Jan 26, 2021
Messages
221
Location
France
No, I do all I can through breathing exercices to get higher CO2 levels (Buteiko method and others...and I take preg, prog and dhea)

And I don’t claim keto or any other diet is the “best”, even if I’m satisfied with it (tried many things for 15-20 years...worst by far for me was vegan). Everybody has to try what fits better for him. But It just works for many people, certainly with some drawbacks.

Just look at keto as another Starch free/PUFA free Peat diet, with mainly the high saturated fats difference. In fact, just replace glucose with saturated fat used for energy, and it’s quite the same. I think there’s more similarity than differences...but maybe I’m wrong ?
 
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Jessie

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2020
Messages
713
Idk maybe. I think the core concept to bioenergetics seems to revolve around suppressing fat oxidation, not increasing it. Also, is keto really all that anti-PUFA? I know they don't like vegetable oils, but I'm sure many of them would approve of nuts, seeds, smoked salmon, etc. They seem to be more obsessed with the omega ratio than they do with avoiding PUFA. I also think that, without a doubt, they would approve of PUFA laden foods before they would sugar. Above all else, they're anti-sugar.

Having said that, I do think there's a noticeable pipeline from keto/carnivore into some of Ray's work. I think, for one, it's probably because the transition is rather easy. People who've done years of carnivore, noticing some benefits, but also experiencing negatives from carb avoidance, can implement some of Ray's concepts. I mean, just checkout Danny's video here. It's basically "carnivore" plus the addition of juice/coke. You could still get all the benefits of carnivore, like reduced intestinal irritation, plus the benefits of adding sugar back into the diet, like reduced cortisol and fat oxidation.

So the pipeline exists. But I think has more to do with transitioning and growing, rather than any sort of base similarity. You could probably just as easily create a pipeline to bioenergetics from other stuff, like fruitarianism and vegetarianism for example. But since there's other reasons besides health that people choose these lifestyles, like moral, philosophical, and political reasons, there's probably less people that leave these camps.
 

OccamzRazer

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2021
Messages
1,913
High fats works perfectly with gaining muscle.
I already talked about this.
You don't get high cortisol ONLY when you become keto adapted. And it can take up to 6 months to get fully keto adapted if you're serious (or even never for some people)

Low carbs is truely crap, as your energy levels are also always low.
You MUST get in ketosis to gets benefits and really use fats, so your main energy fuel comes from fats, and the magic begins.
Just look at ketogains, and/or the ketogains subreddit.

The great "progresses" you see for most of bodybluiders don't come from diet, but just anabolic steroids.
I believe most serious ketoers are still "natural", so they can't humanly be huge (and being huge is never healthy), and other natural high carbs bodybuilders can't also, because nature/genetics (myostatin levels) prevents this.

But, yes, carbs helps a lot in any case, specially right after trainings (insulin like effect)
Just because this has been your experience doesn't mean it applies to all people. It may apply to many people...but still!

I feel way better on 100 grams of carbs a day than on 0, 20, or 50 grams/day, even after getting keto 'adapted.' For some people there's nothing magical about ketosis.
 

OccamzRazer

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2021
Messages
1,913
Having said that, I do think there's a noticeable pipeline from keto/carnivore into some of Ray's work. I think, for one, it's probably because the transition is rather easy. People who've done years of carnivore, noticing some benefits, but also experiencing negatives from carb avoidance, can implement some of Ray's concepts. I mean, just checkout Danny's video here. It's basically "carnivore" plus the addition of juice/coke. You could still get all the benefits of carnivore, like reduced intestinal irritation, plus the benefits of adding sugar back into the diet, like reduced cortisol and fat oxidation.
Yep! Lots of people coming to Peat from carnivore. Peat pretty much provides the best of both worlds. Maybe that's where the carnivore diet's true value lies lol.
 

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